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Bible predictions about Noahs Ark...are true.

I did not begin to change my thinking until I was well out of school, and none of what I now hold as true was ever taught or proposed as a possible truth.

I read a book by Hugh Ross entitled “Creation and Time”, and later and book by Fred Herin called “Show me God”, which was aimed towards witnessing to those of or in the midst of a secular education.

In fact, when a friend of mine first gave me the Hugh Ross, I was a YEC proponent and had never thought anything different.


Why yes I did!






How did God make man from the dust of the earth? The Bible doesn’t give us details about how dust became skin and tissue and bone. How did God make the mountains or water? We have no information about how he specifically made anything, so why should I expect anything about the universe, but again, the details are not the point of Genesis 1 & 2, but that God is the creator.


Doug
True, God didn't explain all of the details. God didn't tell us how He fashioned a women from a mans rib...but the bible says Jesus did it that way.
We do know from the bible that Eve didn't evolve.
 
True, God didn't explain all of the details. God didn't tell us how He fashioned a women from a mans rib...but the bible says Jesus did it that way.
We do know from the bible that Eve didn't evolve.
Agreed! But the Big Bang would explain how God stretched out the heavens.

Doug
 
First, I’ve never said the speed of light is a problem, unless you mean for the YEC; I am, in that case, saying that, though I said it more in the sense of why I have rejected the YEC position.

The speed of light is a foundational constant that has anchored our understanding of physics an understanding on which so much of our technology is derived and functions.

There is nothing unsettled about the speed of light, and it is no longer a theory, but established a demonstrable fact.

Astrophysics and Geology cannot disagree with each other. The speed of light demonstrates the age of the universe indisputably. The Heavens declare the Glory of God, and the physical nature of the elements within the universe are just as much a truthful voice of God as revealed truth of the Bible. And as I have referenced Psalms 19 above, it is the special revelation of scripture that establishes the truthfulness of the information of natural revelation about God!


Doug

Due to a few stale expressions in English translation, and maybe to inattentiveness about a few passages, there is a case for an older distant universe but an Recent Creation Week.

1, Genesis section titles. First, a person needs to understand recitation titles per Rabbi Cassuto, in FROM ADAM TO NOAH. The section titles (for ex 1:1) are not action in the narrative. Many sections have a 4 part formula, which was handy for recitation:
*section title
*pre-existing condition (for ex 1:2)
*new material (most of ch 1)
*summary (2:1-4)

This leaves us with an existing earth that was dark and unformed to start with. It may even add some time. So it is the activity of creating or rendering in its current form that is recent.

2, Distant vs local in Gen 1. There is light on day 1, but did he mean locally? This is not a pointless question because we will see that the view of the rest of the chapter is not about the distant universe. It is about those things that pertain to earth. The kinds of functions that the local objects have are about marking seasons (although there is a bit of lapse here in that seasons are not mentioned until after the cataclysm; it is as though the piece were written so much later that the distinction of before and after was forgotten).

This can help us understand the sun's arrival on the 4th day, and perhaps the debate about its recentness.

This marking or messaging is later changed to another function after Bab-El when we read that Abraham could "read" the stars and see that justification by Christ was coming, and rejoice. He was not just counting but reading or calculating or accounting what they meant; the next line tells us that he was told they were as numerous as the sands of the shore, so there is not much point in a tally. This is about ancient Biblical astronomy's 12 'sectors' for nations and the meaning of Jupiter and Saturn, all telling that at a future point a king would rise from Israel and he would also be a bridge or ladder lowered from heaven for mankind.

This was meant to be captured in Ps 19, but the translations often take us other directions. "There is no speech" is true to a point, but the words of the stars reach all peoples nearby. This knowledge was preserved by Daniel and he explained it and Balaam's star to the Chaldeans, whom we might say were the first miracle of the nativity of Christ (their survival was). The 12 sectors were Babylonian originally but were contaminated later into astrology.

Pluto's ice mountains and Saturn's rings are recent (because the life-span is short), and when Viking traveled past Jupiter, Velikovsky predicted it would be radiologically 'hot' and was correct. This anomaly also means it is recent.

3, Distant vs local in 2 Peter 3. We can find the difference again in 2 Peter 3 in the verbs or terms chosen: 'ekpalai' vs 'sunestosa.' The universe, it says, simply 'existed from of old' (the phrase drops the verb), while the earth is quite a different matter. Its verb is from pottery. This again allows for some time beforehand, before an RCW. It certainly means the material was there. Then Peter says it was made through water and by water, the same which was used to destroy it. Notice the innate connection between the two events, which also shows in Ps 104; it is difficult to tell which event the psalm writer was referring to.
 
I did not begin to change my thinking until I was well out of school, and none of what I now hold as true was ever taught or proposed as a possible truth.

I read a book by Hugh Ross entitled “Creation and Time”, and later and book by Fred Herin called “Show me God”, which was aimed towards witnessing to those of or in the midst of a secular education.

In fact, when a friend of mine first gave me the Hugh Ross, I was a YEC proponent and had never thought anything different.


Why yes I did!






How did God make man from the dust of the earth? The Bible doesn’t give us details about how dust became skin and tissue and bone. How did God make the mountains or water? We have no information about how he specifically made anything, so why should I expect anything about the universe, but again, the details are not the point of Genesis 1 & 2, but that God is the creator.


Doug

As you might see from my post #103, it is not necessarily the time of the distant universe that is a problem in Ross. It is his recklessness with certain Hebrew terms like day and flood and 'speaking' into existence. On each one, I consider him worthless. When you delete the 'speaking' you break 2 Peter 3 and the logic that many cultures have realized: that this place and human physiology is so complex it overwhelmingly had to be a 'magic' event to come into existence, complete and thriving from the very beginning. This was Lewis' objection to modern thinking in the professor's remark in LION, WITCH AND WARDROBE but also in essays on 'natural' vs 'supernatural' miracles.

On day, he breaks the meaning of the sabbath. On flood, he thinks it is the annual high when in fact the term is about total destruction.

re mountains, a look at Ps 104 will help. It compares with what we now know about rising and falling, which is also in many culture's accounts of creation and cataclysm.
 
Agreed! But the Big Bang would explain how God stretched out the heavens.

Doug
Yes, but it falls short as the bible teaches the earth preceded the sun, moon and stars.
 
Yes, but it falls short as the bible teaches the earth preceded the sun, moon and stars.
First of all, the Big Bang doesn’t say anything about the order of creation that follows it. “Let there be light” is also the creation of light bearers, ie, stars, it doesn’t mean that Earth was after the sun.

This said, vegetation is created “before” the sun and moon, and vegetation lives by photosynthesis, if I remember my science basics correctly. The vegetation of today, lives by the light of the sun, a sun at just the right distance and of just the right size, so by what did the veggie garden get its natural light? And, remember, each day has an Evening and Morning, suggesting, given your literal interpretation, at least a sun source by which these 24 hour cycles are measured.

In my view, you have more issues with the text than I do if you are true to your literal hermetic and naturalistic approach of progress, that meaning that the processes of life, such as vegetation, operate as they do now.

Doug
 
I agree.....time will tell.

Images such as the following taken from the site go a long ways. The link in the OP explain the scan if you have any interest.

View attachment 581
Yup that looks "boat shaped" alright. But God doesn't call it a "Boat" he said to make a "TEBA" - i.e. a "BOX".

The Ark wasn't built to navigate, since it didn't go anywhere. It's purpose was just to keep living things from drowning, as Harry Rimmer pointed out 100 years ago. And God was in control of it. The door that God SHUT was never opened again, the removed the covering to get out.
 
First of all, the Big Bang doesn’t say anything about the order of creation that follows it. “Let there be light” is also the creation of light bearers, ie, stars, it doesn’t mean that Earth was after the sun.
The way they explain the BB..the sun came first...after the distant stars.
This said, vegetation is created “before” the sun and moon, and vegetation lives by photosynthesis, if I remember my science basics correctly. The vegetation of today, lives by the light of the sun, a sun at just the right distance and of just the right size, so by what did the veggie garden get its natural light?
It was only one day. Would that kill the vegetation?
Secondly there was the original "let there be light"...which I speculate, could have provided the plants with the needed light.

And, remember, each day has an Evening and Morning, suggesting, given your literal interpretation, at least a sun source by which these 24 hour cycles are measured.
It sounds as if there was initially a "light" source until the sun was created.
In my view, you have more issues with the text than I do if you are true to your literal hermetic and naturalistic approach of progress, that meaning that the processes of life, such as vegetation, operate as they do now.
How is that a problem?
 
The way they explain the BB..the sun came first...after the distant stars.
The materials that make up our planet, especially that of “carbon” (pun half-intended…;) ) is the result of solar debris from super novas. So stars, a lot of them, are needed before our planet could exist.


It was only one day. Would that kill the vegetation?
Secondly there was the original "let there be light"...which I speculate, could have provided the plants with the needed light.
The point is that you’re reaching beyond the text to fill in the gaps. The natural process of vegetation needs a sun to grow and stay alive. You are assuming an undefined alternate source or process that can support vegetation other that the sun.

We know that our sun is precisely the right distance from earth to foster life. A little closer and we fry, a little further away and we freeze.

There is no evidence of another sun/light source on Day three, and it is counterintuitive to expect vegetation to be created prior to the source its physical life is existent.


It sounds as if there was initially a "light" source until the sun was created.

How is that a problem?
As I have said, you are assuming or creating something not in the text. We have no evidence of such a light source. You are creating an unnatural set of circumstances to explain the natural conditions that we see today. You are making the laws of nature different in the first week of creation. Plants grow sans a sun.

Again, this is not a hill to die on, and the only thing that matters is our agreement that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.”

The time frame is irrelevant to the truth of this axiom.


Doug
 
The materials that make up our planet, especially that of “carbon” (pun half-intended…;) ) is the result of solar debris from super novas. So stars, a lot of them, are needed before our planet could exist.
That's not what the bible says....but if you need it to be so, have at it.
The point is that you’re reaching beyond the text to fill in the gaps. The natural process of vegetation needs a sun to grow and stay alive. You are assuming an undefined alternate source or process that can support vegetation other that the sun.
What I said is that it was only for one day....a plant can stay alive for several days in complete darkness.

However I did mention there was a light source present when the plants were created.
We know that our sun is precisely the right distance from earth to foster life. A little closer and we fry, a little further away and we freeze.
More proof for special creation.
There is no evidence of another sun/light source on Day three, and it is counterintuitive to expect vegetation to be created prior to the source its physical life is existent.
Didn't God say...let there be light?
As I have said, you are assuming or creating something not in the text. We have no evidence of such a light source. You are creating an unnatural set of circumstances to explain the natural conditions that we see today. You are making the laws of nature different in the first week of creation. Plants grow sans a sun.

Again, this is not a hill to die on, and the only thing that matters is our agreement that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.”

The time frame is irrelevant to the truth of this axiom.
If you work the linages backwards such as Bishop Usher did....you arrive at around 6,000 years ago creation.
 
The materials that make up our planet, especially that of “carbon” (pun half-intended…;) ) is the result of solar debris from super novas. So stars, a lot of them, are needed before our planet could exist.



The point is that you’re reaching beyond the text to fill in the gaps. The natural process of vegetation needs a sun to grow and stay alive. You are assuming an undefined alternate source or process that can support vegetation other that the sun.

We know that our sun is precisely the right distance from earth to foster life. A little closer and we fry, a little further away and we freeze.

There is no evidence of another sun/light source on Day three, and it is counterintuitive to expect vegetation to be created prior to the source its physical life is existent.



As I have said, you are assuming or creating something not in the text. We have no evidence of such a light source. You are creating an unnatural set of circumstances to explain the natural conditions that we see today. You are making the laws of nature different in the first week of creation. Plants grow sans a sun.

Again, this is not a hill to die on, and the only thing that matters is our agreement that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.”

The time frame is irrelevant to the truth of this axiom.


Doug

re vegetation
It actually looks like the 'planting' was day 3 and the sun existed on day 4--which would not be a problem. This planting was the first 'filling' of a 'form' (tohu wa-bohu means unformed and unfilled), so it is a turning point in the week, humpday. From that point on, the realms are filled with life and creatures, and they have things to eat.
 
re vegetation
It actually looks like the 'planting' was day 3 and the sun existed on day 4--which would not be a problem. This planting was the first 'filling' of a 'form' (tohu wa-bohu means unformed and unfilled), so it is a turning point in the week, humpday. From that point on, the realms are filled with life and creatures, and they have things to eat.
Interesting take. If the animals were created first they would then ask....what did the animals eat if the plants were not around.
 
Interesting take. If the animals were created first they would then ask....what did the animals eat if the plants were not around.

I think you will find that Joseph (the curator of the oral recitation up to the point that he wrote it down in the new alphabet) had a high sense of rationality and organization compared to neighboring cosmologies. And that there is 'unnecessary' detail in events like the flood or description of the ark--things that don't need to be there for the narrative to be complete, but there they are, and that lends credibility to it.
 
If you work the linages backwards such as Bishop Usher did....you arrive at around 6,000 years ago creation.
Usher’s calculations are flawed in many ways. For one, he doesn’t account for telescopic descriptions of the generations, instead assuming direct generational lineages.

He, like you, assumes a literal 24 day, which many throughout history (Philo, Origin, Augustine) have disagreed with and have rather rendered them as distinct periods of time rather than 24 sixty-minute hours. Even Wakefield discounted Ussher’s claims.

You have to assume the science and historical evidence of 1640 AD is still superior to current science and historical evidence. The only reason for doing so is because of a preconceived assumption of truth.
Didn't God say...let there be light?
There is no other light source in our galaxy to account for something like our sun. The sun is the nearest star to us, and the next closest star is too far away to suffice. Special creation doesn’t mean temporary artificial sources; creation operated on specific laws that are still in use today, ie gravity, thermodynamics, speed of light and other electromagnetic forces. All of these speak the glory of God in their precision and consistency.

Light on day one is the general initiation of light, which fits with the Big Bang event. It is not a specific source of light but the creation of light in principle, from which all specific light producing objects are derived.

Doug
 
re vegetation
It actually looks like the 'planting' was day 3 and the sun existed on day 4--which would not be a problem. This planting was the first 'filling' of a 'form' (tohu wa-bohu means unformed and unfilled), so it is a turning point in the week, humpday. From that point on, the realms are filled with life and creatures, and they have things to eat.
Gen 1:12The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.

This is a completed process. Multiple plants and trees producing their specific species of fruit. If no natural sun, then the production is not natural. It is not by the known laws of nature.

All creation is produced for the sake of man; for his sustenance and well being.

Doug
 
Usher’s calculations are flawed in many ways. For one, he doesn’t account for telescopic descriptions of the generations, instead assuming direct generational lineages.
To that iI say.....so what? That argument may push creation back....to 10,000 years. Which is still a young earth.
He, like you, assumes a literal 24 day, which many throughout history (Philo, Origin, Augustine) have disagreed with and have rather rendered them as distinct periods of time rather than 24 sixty-minute hours. Even Wakefield discounted Ussher’s claims.
I don't really care who discounted Ushers claims. The bible uses the word DAY and assigns it evening and morning....AND...also numbers the days.
The Ten commandments also indicate the days are 24 hours long.
You have to assume the science and historical evidence of 1640 AD is still superior to current science and historical evidence. The only reason for doing so is because of a preconceived assumption of truth.
No, I have assumed nothing. I simply read the text. It is YOU who is mixing this so-called far superior science with what the Word of God actually says.
Did you know the far superior science says if you die...on day 3 you stay dead?
There is no other light source in our galaxy to account for something like our sun. The sun is the nearest star to us, and the next closest star is too far away to suffice. Special creation doesn’t mean temporary artificial sources; creation operated on specific laws that are still in use today, ie gravity, thermodynamics, speed of light and other electromagnetic forces. All of these speak the glory of God in their precision and consistency.
Are you ruling out this light source? Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb......are you saying that when God said let there be light it couldn't have been this light?

Perhaps it was the creation of Angels and their "light" who were present when Jesus created the world. This isn't my top choice.
Light on day one is the general initiation of light, which fits with the Big Bang event. It is not a specific source of light but the creation of light in principle, from which all specific light producing objects are derived.
I doubt it. That doesn't fit the biblical narrative.
 
Gen 1:12The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.

This is a completed process. Multiple plants and trees producing their specific species of fruit. If no natural sun, then the production is not natural. It is not by the known laws of nature.

All creation is produced for the sake of man; for his sustenance and well being.

Doug

It was only a day...
 
To that iI say.....so what? That argument may push creation back....to 10,000 years. Which is still a young earth.
But nobody argues that! You stick to the 6000 years, just like you did with your argument to me. Why, because if Ussher is wrong about that, then perhaps the argument is wrong about other things, and 10,000 years might become 100,000 or a million.

Ussher is your primary reason for a young earth, and that is a weak cornerstone in my humble opinion.

Doug
 
But nobody argues that! You stick to the 6000 years, just like you did with your argument to me. Why, because if Ussher is wrong about that, then perhaps the argument is wrong about other things, and 10,000 years might become 100,000 or a million.

Ussher is your primary reason for a young earth, and that is a weak cornerstone in my humble opinion.

Doug
Ussher is just one of several reasons.
 
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