Are Believers Saved Or Are Believers Not Saved Yet?

[atpollard]

Can we ignore Mk 13:13 & Matt 24:13?

Feel free if that floats your boat: People ignore scripture all the time. Other people misquote and misappropriate scripture (as Satan misused scripture to tempt Jesus).

Did you have a specific point?

 

[donadams]

Feel free if that floats your boat: People ignore scripture all the time. Other people misquote and misappropriate scripture (as Satan misused scripture to tempt Jesus).

Did you have a specific point?

How can anyone say we are saved if we must abide in Christ and endure to the end?

Thks

 

[makesends]

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

So those that believe the preaching of the cross are saved because it pleased God to save those that believe the preaching of the cross.

You would have to address the question of just what is a "believer", and just what you mean by "saved", in this context.

 

[atpollard]

How can anyone say we are saved if we must abide in Christ and endure to the end?

Thks

How did the Apostles say we are saved under the influence of the Holy Spirit when the wrote the OTHER VERSES that you have not quoted?
Are you attempting to prove SCRIPTURE IS UNINSPIRED and we cannot trust it?
Are there not enough ATHEIST forums for that?

John 3:10-18 [NLT]

Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."​

Does Jesus promise in John 3 have any real meaning?

• "everyone who believes in him will have eternal life" ... do we HAVE life or not? Is it really ETERNAL or not?
• "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" ... will we PERISH or not? Is the promise really EMPTY rhetoric because Jesus left out the "fine print"?
• "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son" ... just HOW MUCH does God love us if He keeps saving and loosing us? or doesn't really save us at all - WE need to HOLD ON TO Him!
• "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him" ... so is there JUDGEMENT or not? Is it an Empty promise?

 

[donadams]

How did the Apostles say we are saved under the influence of the Holy Spirit when the wrote the OTHER VERSES that you have not quoted?
Are you attempting to prove SCRIPTURE IS UNINSPIRED and we cannot trust it?
Are there not enough ATHEIST forums for that?

John 3:10-18 [NLT]

Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."​

Does Jesus promise in John 3 have any real meaning?

• "everyone who believes in him will have eternal life" ... do we HAVE life or not? Is it really ETERNAL or not?
• "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" ... will we PERISH or not? Is the promise really EMPTY rhetoric because Jesus left out the "fine print"?
• "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son" ... just HOW MUCH does God love us if He keeps saving and loosing us? or doesn't really save us at all - WE need to HOLD ON TO Him!
• "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him" ... so is there JUDGEMENT or not? Is it an Empty promise?

Eternal life is not eternal salvation
Eternal life is the life of God in us or grace and it can be lost

Thks

 

[donadams]

How did the Apostles say we are saved under the influence of the Holy Spirit when the wrote the OTHER VERSES that you have not quoted?
Are you attempting to prove SCRIPTURE IS UNINSPIRED and we cannot trust it?
Are there not enough ATHEIST forums for that?

John 3:10-18 [NLT]

Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."​

Does Jesus promise in John 3 have any real meaning?

• "everyone who believes in him will have eternal life" ... do we HAVE life or not? Is it really ETERNAL or not?
• "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" ... will we PERISH or not? Is the promise really EMPTY rhetoric because Jesus left out the "fine print"?
• "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son" ... just HOW MUCH does God love us if He keeps saving and loosing us? or doesn't really save us at all - WE need to HOLD ON TO Him!
• "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him" ... so is there JUDGEMENT or not? Is it an Empty promise?

Can a man be saved without baptism?
Can a man be saved without a priest?
Thks

 

[Soyeong]

However, OUR justification is no longer based upon OUR ACTS ... it is based upon ONE GREAT ACT performed by Christ. Hebrews speaks at length about the difference between the many offerings and the ONE OFFERING.

Justification has always only been by faith. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. While Paul denied that was can earn our justification as wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only the doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the same faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be doers of the law, but rather our faith upholds it. Another way to put it is that we become someone who has faith, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who will be justified all at the same time and anyone who is not one is also not the others, but we do not earn our justification as the result of being a doer of the law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross and the way to become justified through faith.

 

[donadams]

162. The Sacraments of the New Covenant contain the grace which they signify, and bestow it on
those who do not hinder it.
163. The Sacraments work ex opere operato (simply by being done).
164. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant confer sanctifying grace on the receivers.
165. Three Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders, imprint a character, that is, an
indelible spiritual mark, and for this reason cannot be repeated.
166. The Sacramental Character is a spiritual mark imprinted on the soul.
167. The Sacramental Character continues at least until the death of its bearer.
168. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ.
169. There are Seven Sacraments of the New Law.
170. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind.
171. For the valid dispensing of the Sacraments it is necessary that the minister accomplish the
Sacramental Sign in the proper manner.
172. The minister must further have the intention at least of doing what the Church does.
173. In the case of adult recipients moral worthiness is necessary for the worthy or fruitful
reception of the Sacraments.
174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
178. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an
indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot
be repeated.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.
180. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
181. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
182. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

 

[atpollard]

Eternal life is not eternal salvation

Eternal life is not eternal if we suffer the second death, is it?

 

[atpollard]

Can a man be saved without baptism?
Can a man be saved without a priest?
Thks

Yes … the thief on the cross, for one example.

 

[atpollard]

162. The Sacraments of the New Covenant contain the grace which they signify, and bestow it on
those who do not hinder it.
163. The Sacraments work ex opere operato (simply by being done).
164. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant confer sanctifying grace on the receivers.
165. Three Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders, imprint a character, that is, an
indelible spiritual mark, and for this reason cannot be repeated.
166. The Sacramental Character is a spiritual mark imprinted on the soul.
167. The Sacramental Character continues at least until the death of its bearer.
168. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ.
169. There are Seven Sacraments of the New Law.
170. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind.
171. For the valid dispensing of the Sacraments it is necessary that the minister accomplish the
Sacramental Sign in the proper manner.
172. The minister must further have the intention at least of doing what the Church does.
173. In the case of adult recipients moral worthiness is necessary for the worthy or fruitful
reception of the Sacraments.
174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
178. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an
indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot
be repeated.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.
180. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
181. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
182. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

… said men, not Scripture (God).

 

[atpollard]

Justification has always only been by faith. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. While Paul denied that was can earn our justification as wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only the doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the same faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be doers of the law, but rather our faith upholds it. Another way to put it is that we become someone who has faith, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who will be justified all at the same time and anyone who is not one is also not the others, but we do not earn our justification as the result of being a doer of the law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross and the way to become justified through faith.

I was referencing to obedience to the commands of the LAW which did proscribe specific actions that people were to perform (especially the High Priest) for the temporary remission of sin. God threw a fit when Israel stopped doing what He had commanded and making the required offerings.

I contrasted this (as does Hebrews) with the superior offering of Christ made once for all.

 

[donadams]

Yes … the thief on the cross, for one example.

How was lazarus saved lk 16?

 

[donadams]

… said men, not Scripture (God).

Yes God ez 36:25-27

 

[jeremiah1five]

Of course, believers are not saved yet.
We are two-thirds saved.
We still await the salvation and redemption of our bodies.
This will occur when Christ returns. He is bringing the completion of our salvation when in the twinkle-twinkle of His eye we are changed, corruption puts on incorruption (1 Cor. 15.)
Until then we still suffer the effects of sin and that is the death of our bodies.
Until then we still buy plots for our burials.

 

[grace2]

Eternal life is not eternal salvation
Eternal life is the life of God in us or grace and it can be lost

Thks

If you are worshipping a man-made god, you don't even have a chance to be saved which is that is case with triune god worshippers.

 

[grace2]

Eternal life is not eternal if we suffer the second death, is it?

the second death is the death after the judgment.

 

[atpollard]

the second death is the death after the judgment.

Yes it is.
However, that does not answer the question, does it?

Speaking of those that die and stand before the judgement seat and are condemned to suffer the "SECOND DEATH" ... Did they receive "ETERNAL life"? Can ANY life they lived or received be described as "eternal life"?

If not (which seems self-evident), then EVERY passage of scripture that speaks of Jesus giving ETERNAL LIFE must not be speaking to them (since we agree that their life was NOT eternal).

As an example:

John 3:14-17 [NKJV]
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

John 10:25-30 [NKJV]
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

John 17:1-5 [NKJV]
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

 

[grace2]

Yes it is.
However, that does not answer the question, does it?

I added that because so many trins don't seem to understand.

they even believe they won't be judged and are already saved.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The bible teaches a Trinity of God in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Y'all don't see it?

Blind, blind, blind.