Are Arminians Pelagianists?

[Rescued One]

Or ought I to have said pelagians? I'm here to learn things I've never known!

Most churches I've attended don't baptize infants.

I'm sorry if my question is in the wrong place.

 

[makesends]

Or ought I to have said pelagians? I'm here to learn things I've never known!

Most churches I've attended don't baptize infants.

I'm sorry if my question is in the wrong place.

I have to give Arminians a little credit. In the same way that Arminius was a Calvinist at one point, the Arminians, in name, anyway, believe in Total Depravity (see T.U.L.I.P.) But Pelagians believe in total ability to choose, as if those the Bible refers to as slaves of sin, are not unable to please God (see Romans 8:8) or to submit to God (Romans 8:7).

What they both have in common is the notion that there is, as some put it, some "spark of divinity", or some other such reference to self-contradictory notions of uncaused action, or as I put it, but they will not —some way it is not self-contradictory to say that God caused mankind to do uncaused things, i.e. to make choices independent of causation.

 

[David1701]

Or ought I to have said pelagians? I'm here to learn things I've never known!

Most churches I've attended don't baptize infants.

I'm sorry if my question is in the wrong place.

Genuine Arminians are not Pelagians; in fact, outright Pelagians are quite rare amongst professing Christians (thankfully), not counting Liberals.

The following are simplifications, but they give the gist.

Arminians believe that God must give a person "prevenient grace", to counteract his innate depravity, so that he is, allegedly, enabled to believe the gospel, when he hears it.

Pelagians believe that man still has an innate ability to do good and does not need any extra grace.

Semi-Pelagians believe that man was corrupted by the fall of Adam, but can still believe the gospel, without needing any additional grace.

Provisionists believe that fallen man can believe the gospel, if it is accompanied by Holy Spirit power.

 

[Arial]

Genuine Arminians are not Pelagians; in fact, outright Pelagians are quite rare (thankfully).

The following are simplifications, but they give the gist.

Arminians believe that God must give a person "prevenient grace", to counteract his innate depravity, so that he is, allegedly, enabled to believe the gospel, when he hears it.

Pelagians believe that man still has an innate ability to do good and does not need any extra grace.

Semi-Pelagians believe that man was corrupted by the fall of Adam, but can still believe the gospel, without needing any additional grace.

Provisionists believe that fallen man can believe the gospel, if it is accompanied by Holy Spirit power.

What I see on these forums, is that a lot of non Calvinist/Reformed mix and match their doctrinal beliefs. Some from here, some from there, some entirely unique. A smorgasbord of doctrine. Whatever sounds good or right or pleasing. The fact that it is Christ's church, he is the chief cornerstone, he appointed the apostles to lay the doctrinal foundation, and nothing else is to be added to it or taken away from it, does not even seem to cross the minds of most of what calls itself his church.

 

[makesends]

What I see on these forums, is that a lot of non Calvinist/Reformed mix and match their doctrinal beliefs. Some from here, some from there, some entirely unique. A smorgasbord of doctrine. Whatever sounds good or right or pleasing. The fact that it is Christ's church, he is the chief cornerstone, he appointed the apostles to lay the doctrinal foundation, and nothing else is to be added to it or taken away from it, does not even seem to cross the minds of most of what calls itself his church.

Ha! But tell them that, and they will say either that the Calvinists/Reformed can't agree even amongst themselves, or that Calvinists/Reformed are the ones who add to (or take away from) the doctrinal foundation.

 

[Rescued One]

I have to give Arminians a little credit. In the same way that Arminius was a Calvinist at one point, the Arminians, in name, anyway, believe in Total Depravity (see T.U.L.I.P.) But Pelagians believe in total ability to choose, as if those the Bible refers to as slaves of sin, are not unable to please God (see Romans 8:8) or to submit to God (Romans 8:7).

What they both have in common is the notion that there is, as some put it, some "spark of divinity", or some other such reference to self-contradictory notions of uncaused action, or as I put it, but they will not —some way it is not self-contradictory to say that God caused mankind to do uncaused things, i.e. to make choices independent of causation.

Wesleyans and Church of the Nazarene never taught me about Total Depravity. Why is that?

As for Pelagians, I cannot for the life of me grasp that sinners aren't slaves to sin!

 

[Rescued One]

Genuine Arminians are not Pelagians; in fact, outright Pelagians are quite rare amongst professing Christians (thankfully), not counting Liberals.

The following are simplifications, but they give the gist.

Arminians believe that God must give a person "prevenient grace", to counteract his innate depravity, so that he is, allegedly, enabled to believe the gospel, when he hears it.

I love gaining knowledge! Thank you.

Pelagians believe that man still has an innate ability to do good and does not need any extra grace.

Well, what kind of good? My parents didn't become Christians or end up in jail. So obviously they could have been worse.

Semi-Pelagians believe that man was corrupted by the fall of Adam, but can still believe the gospel, without needing any additional grace.

Isn't that saying they don't believe Ephesians 2?

Provisionists believe that fallen man can believe the gospel, if it is accompanied by Holy Spirit power.

But what verse(s) support that?

 

[David1701]

What I see on these forums, is that a lot of non Calvinist/Reformed mix and match their doctrinal beliefs. Some from here, some from there, some entirely unique. A smorgasbord of doctrine. Whatever sounds good or right or pleasing. The fact that it is Christ's church, he is the chief cornerstone, he appointed the apostles to lay the doctrinal foundation, and nothing else is to be added to it or taken away from it, does not even seem to cross the minds of most of what calls itself his church.

I think that many in the assemblies are affected by the zeitgeist, this post-modern "there is no objective truth, only my truth and your truth"; in fact, I've come across professing Christians using phrases like "my truth", which is quite disturbing.

One "Christian" forum that I went on was packed solid with professing Christians proclaiming their opinions and thinking nothing of the fact that they couldn't prove them from Scripture; many didn't even try.

 

[David1701]

I love gaining knowledge! Thank you.

Well, what kind of good? My parents didn't become Christians or end up in jail. So obviously they could have been worse.

Isn't that saying they don't believe Ephesians 2?

But what verse(s) support that?

Pelagians believe that the fall did not corrupt mankind and that he is still able to do any and all kinds of good; of course, no true Christians believe this.

Semi-Pelagians disbelieve many Scriptures, not only Eph. 2 (they don't admit it, of course).

There are no verses that support Provisionism, just as there are no verses, properly understood, in context, that support Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism or Arminianism.

 

[David1701]

Wesleyans and Church of the Nazarene never taught me about Total Depravity. Why is that?

As for Pelagians, I cannot for the life of me grasp that sinners aren't slaves to sin!

Arminians pay lip-service to believing in Total Depravity (and Wesleyans believe a form of Arminianism); but, they claim that its effects (re. the ability to believe the gospel) are universally nullified by "prevenient grace", so that, in effect, they end up being semi-Pelagian.

Arminius himself taught that one needs to be born again, in order to be able to believe the gospel; however, he didn't mean what the Bible means by "born again"; rather, he meant a kind of semi-regenerate state, better than fallen man in his natural condition, but not a new creation. This is found nowhere in Scripture.

 

[Whatever]

Ha! But tell them that, and they will say either that the Calvinists/Reformed can't agree even amongst themselves, or that Calvinists/Reformed are the ones who add to (or take away from) the doctrinal foundation.

The fact is that all of the posters on these forums are basically amateurs. We are not seminary trained. If we were, they wouldn't have time to waste on these forums. We would be busy teaching classes, writing books and such.

Most of the Restorationist Churches - Church of Christ, Christian Church, disciples of Christ - are trying to "restore" the church back to the purity it had at the beginning (a false idea) so they dismiss all creeds and confessions. They deny the doctrine of original sin. Baby's are born sinless and only become sinners when they sin - and that they have to be old enough to understand right from wrong. So they have an age of accountability - differing from one group to the other.

 

[ReverendRV]

Or ought I to have said pelagians? I'm here to learn things I've never known!

Most churches I've attended don't baptize infants.

I'm sorry if my question is in the wrong place.

Classical Arminians aren't Pelagian, they're Reformed. Online Forums have gotten into the habit of calling Provisionists, Arminians. Frankly, Provisionists were happy being labeled Arminians; it gave them a leg to stand on. We should stop calling them Arminians. It's probably too late though, Provisionism has gotten It's own leg to stand on now; by pretending to be Arminians for so long. They were able to grow, because we label everyone Arminians. Provisionists are definitely Pelagian; at most, Arminians are Semi Pelagian or Semi Reformed. Anyone who is Semi Reformed, can't be Pelagian...

 

[Rescued One]

The fact is that all of the posters on these forums are basically amateurs. We are not seminary trained. If we were, they wouldn't have time to waste on these forums. We would be busy teaching classes, writing books and such.

Most of the Restorationist Churches - Church of Christ, Christian Church, disciples of Christ - are trying to "restore" the church back to the purity it had at the beginning (a false idea) so they dismiss all creeds and confessions. They deny the doctrine of original sin. Baby's are born sinless and only become sinners when they sin - and that they have to be old enough to understand right from wrong. So they have an age of accountability - differing from one group to the other.

Are you seminary trained or just wasting time on these forums?

I can't go to seminary, but churches generally don't teach what they learned in seminary. Some denomination's seminaries don't teach much either. You apparently believe babies need baptism to guarantee salvation if they die as infants; I haven't been convinced of that. So I'm here to learn what I can regardless of everyone being a seminary instructor. Not all seminary instructors teach exactly the same things. Having been in a cult actually gives me a slight advantage; I am aware of how those particular cultists criticize Christians and I will not fall prey to certain teachings. If you don't like what I believe or learn, so what? Don't you think a Sovereign God will teach me?

 

[ReverendRV]

Are you seminary trained or just wasting time on there forums?

I can't go to seminary, but churches generally don't teach what they learned in seminary. Some denomination's seminaries don't teach much either. You apparently believe babies need baptism to guarantee salvation if they die as infants; I haven't been convinced of that. So I'm here to learn what I can regardless of everyone being a seminary instructor. Not all seminary instructors teach exactly the same things. Having been in a cult actually gives me a slight advantage; I am aware of how those particular cultists criticize Christians and I will not fall prey to certain teachings. If you don't like what I believe or learn, so what? Don't you think a Sovereign God will teach me?

Without needing Seminary, and leaning toward Calvinism; I suggest you read the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith. It's short and concise. In Chapter 10 Paragraph 3, it says Elect Infants dying in Infancy are Saved. Saint Paul says Baptism is Nothing. Since we know we're not Elect by the Will of a father, Infant Baptism is still Nothing. That's two reasons we have, to not Believe in Infant Baptism...

This is a good reason to study the Confessions of Faith for a while; since neither of us can go to Seminary...

 

[Rescued One]

I left the cult I was in after reading some of the Bible.

I pasted a link to the Second London Baptist Confession to my PC. Thanks.

 

[makesends]

The fact is that all of the posters on these forums are basically amateurs. We are not seminary trained. If we were, they wouldn't have time to waste on these forums. We would be busy teaching classes, writing books and such.

Most of the Restorationist Churches - Church of Christ, Christian Church, disciples of Christ - are trying to "restore" the church back to the purity it had at the beginning (a false idea) so they dismiss all creeds and confessions. They deny the doctrine of original sin. Baby's are born sinless and only become sinners when they sin - and that they have to be old enough to understand right from wrong. So they have an age of accountability - differing from one group to the other.

Actually, some of us are. I am, though I did not follow through all four years. Seminaries are not all they are cracked up to be. And I have gone out of my way, actually, since I was a teen, to avoid religious terminology and technical sounding high speech. I speak with a hick accent and don't care to do otherwise, but sometimes, technical language is necessary for concision and precision.

How seminary training implies "teaching classes, writing books and such", I don't know. I'd guess a good half, if not the majority, of seminary graduates do no such thing. For myself, I've been in Christendom, among Christians, brought up within a Christian world (my parents taught at a Bible Institute in South America, and I went to a missionary kids' school there), with family Bible memory and devotions every day. As a result of that, and several other factors, I have insight that probably most seminary graduates don't have, in spite of not having the formal training they have. I am not intimidated by them. I don't particularly respect them, nor preachers. We are all fallen idiots. I will respect preachers for one thing—that even though driven to do what they feel they must, they are fallen, and unable to deliver the word of God without fault to God's people, yet they are held responsible by God for what they say, and that is a heavy undertaking.

Yeah, I agree with you about that whole 'restoration' mentality. Not only does it reject the value of the status quo, but it puts the status quo all into one filthy dishwater to discard. And there are several other things wrong with it, not the least of which is a really lousy hermeneutic.

 

[Whatever]

Are you seminary trained or just wasting time on these forums?

Actually I flunked out of High School. But I have spent 40 years reading the kind of stuff seminaries would have you read. Systematic Theologies, Biblical Theologies, Reformed Confessions, many commentaries and on and on.

And I am probably wasting a lot of time on here that I could be using for just plain chores like vacuuming and dusting or things I could be doing in the yard like fixing my worn out fence.

You apparently believe babies need baptism to guarantee salvation if they die as infants

No. But I don't think all infants dying in infancy go to heaven. But some elect ones do, baptized or not. All infants are born under the headship of Adam and thus, do not deserve to go to heaven. Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

So I'm here to learn what I can regardless of everyone being a seminary instructor.

All you will learn are about 10,000 different view points on everything.

Don't you think a Sovereign God will teach me?

Yes, but He is not a God of confusion. That ls what you are getting here.

1 Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers . . .

Real God ordained teachers are too disciplined to spend time on these boards. They are a good place to give off your 2 cents worth. They become an addiction.

 

[Rescued One]

Actually I flunked out of High School. But I have spent 40 years reading the kind of stuff seminaries would have you read. Systematic Theologies, Biblical Theologies, Reformed Confessions, many commentaries and on and on.

And I am probably wasting a lot of time on here that I could be using for just plain chores like vacuuming and dusting or things I could be doing in the yard like fixing my worn out fence.

No. But I don't think all infants dying in infancy go to heaven. But some elect ones do, baptized or not. All infants are born under the headship of Adam and thus, do not deserve to go to heaven. Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

All you will learn are about 10,000 different view points on everything.

That's not bad. I spent 12 years in a cult which I can now refute.

Yes, but He is not a God of confusion. That ls what you are getting here.

Your opinion is noted.

1 Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers . . .

Real God ordained teachers are too disciplined to spend time on these boards. They are a good place to give off your 2 cents worth. They become an addiction.

Another opinion. I've heard so many in my lifetime. Since you spend time on these boards, you must be addicted.

 

[Rescued One]

Alexander Campbell.
The Restoration Movement is a 19th-century American religious movement that aimed to restore the New Testament church and its practices. It sought to return to the original teachings and worship methods of the early church, rejecting man-made creeds and emphasizing the Bible as the sole authority. The movement eventually splintered into several denominations, including the Churches of Christ, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and independent congregations.


The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.

I've had experience with the Church of Christ and reject their so-called restoration movement.

FOLKS: See gotquestions.org

 

[Rescued One]

. . . .
Yes, but He is not a God of confusion. That ls what you are getting here.

1 Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers . . .

Real God ordained teachers are too disciplined to spend time on these boards. They are a good place to give off your 2 cents worth. They become an addiction.