Annihilation of the reprobate.

[Papa Smurf]

Universalism. The denial of eternal punishment had a strong proponent in Origen (185–c. 254).47 “Origen taught that the threats of eternal punishment were only hortatory.… Origen ‘admits that the grammatical sense of the scriptural terms teaches an everlasting and inextinguishable fire; but considers this an intentional and gracious deceit on the part of God to deter men from sinning.’ ”48 He taught that eventually there would be a universal restoration of everyone, including Satan, sodomites, and all others. Origen appealed to John 17:20–21; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 4:13; and Philippians 2:10–11 for support of universalism.

Hello ElectedbyHim, thank you for your post and all of the information that it contains as it will certainly be a benefit to this interesting discussion

So, first off, if either Universalism or Annihilationism is true, then it seems to me that Origen is correct, that Hell/The Lake of Fire (that the Bible describes as the unending, conscious abode of the wicked in the age to come) must be an intentional & gracious ~deceit~ on the part of God for our benefit.

Of course, the immediate problem that I have with that idea is with God being, in any way, deceitful, even if His "deceit" here is meant as a blessing (as deceit, lies, half-truths, etc., are tools of the enemy, never of God .. e.g. Numbers 23:19; Hebrews 6:17-18; Titus 1:1-2 cf John 8:44).

It might also be interesting to discuss what each position has going for it (so to speak), as well the drawbacks or problems that they cause, both Biblically and practically (the pros/cons of each position, that is).

As a for instance, I know a number of unbelievers who are still alive today because they are afraid that what the Bible has to say about God's wrath and The Lake of Fire may actually be true, that ending their (what they believe to be) miserable lives here could result in their misery only becoming far worse.

I also know many believers, particularly among those of us who became Christians as older teens and adults, who credit the traditional Biblical teaching of everlasting torment in Hell as being an influence (to one degree or another) in their choice to finally come to saving faith and believe.

Can the same be said for the doctrines of either Annihilationism or Universalism?

Thanks

God bless you!!

~Papa Smurf

 

[makesends]

This John 5:28-29 text with those in the grave either experiencing a "resurrection to life" or a "resurrection to destruction" does not contradict Isaiah 26:14 which tells us that the mortal remains of the wicked dead "shall NOT live" and "shall NOT rise".

It is the souls of the wicked dead which come forth at hearing His voice. Their mortal bodily remains never leave the grave. This is why Psalms 1:4-5 tells us that the ungodly "are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." The souls of the wicked dead do not survive that judgment process in the "resurrection to destruction", since they don't have the covering of Christ's imputed righteousness to shield them from that fiery stream of God's utter holiness issuing from before His throne.

I'm trying to understand why you are going on about their mortal remains. What has that to do with annihilation?

The righteous are raised - both body AND soul - in the "resurrection to life". Their soul's eternal life status was the Holy Spirit's guarantee of the eternal life status for their mortal remains which are to be raised incorruptible and immortal.


First of all, there are multitudes who mistakenly believe that those such as Lazarus or any other resurrected person in Scriptures has died again physically for a second time. Somehow, they reason that these individuals' resurrections were not quite good enough to quality as the "real deal resurrection" to a glorified body.

Second of all, there are multitudes who mistakenly believe that the wicked dead are bodily raised out of the grave to somehow also die twice physically in the "second death" which they believe occurs in an after-life judgment process.

Nevermind about what others believe about the wicked dead's body being raised. I'm asking why people believe in annihilation --not why you do not believe as others do about the physical body of the reprobate.

Well, we also have Malachi 4 that describes "the great and dreadful day of the Lord" which John the Baptist warned about. That day would "burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." In that day, those who feared the name of God would "tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." You can't get much further destroyed than a pile of ashes underfoot.

And you are saying that is about the souls of the wicked? Burning up the souls? I suppose you intend that to be after they are raised to condemnation. Just trying to anchor down your terms here. Not sure how vaguely you are dealing with this. "Pile of ashes" doesn't sound like annihilated soul, to me,

And Satan would likewise share the same fate of being destroyed to ashes on the earth, as predicted by God in Ezekiel 28:18-19. The result of this would be, "and never shalt thou be anymore." This would be total annihilation for Satan the former "anointed cherub", as well as for the wicked.

What has Satan to do with the question of the annihilation of the souls of the reprobate? The eternal fire that was prepared for Satan and his minions, which I take to be the LOF, is where the reprobate also are sent upon being judged (Matt 25), and there also is where the Bible says death and hell will be thrown, and, that in the same context as the judgement (Rev 20) I take to be the same as in Matt 25, and it is reiterated there, that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will also go there. The term used is variously rendered "eternal", "everlasting", "for ever and ever", "forever and always", "for the ages of ages", "for evermore" and such. That it is a permanent situation I would agree, but I don't see it saying anything about annihilation.

If that be so, what does the assertion that Satan will also be reduced to ashes add to the argument?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'm trying to understand why you are going on about their mortal remains. What has that to do with annihilation?

I am emphasizing the distinction between the soul of mankind and the mortal remains of the physical body form because Scripture does so. Humanity was created as a composite being, and spiritual death brought upon us in Adam has caused repercussions on humanity's physical body as well. Every person conceived by a fallen Adam has physically died, because "death passed upon all men" (Rom. 5:12).

Not everyone will be bodily resurrected. Only those who were given eternal life of the spirit in this life will be bodily raised out of the dust of the grave and avoid annihilation. For those who were NOT given eternal life of the spirit at some point in their natural lifetime their souls will still be required to show up before the judgment throne of God. But their mortal remains never rise to be re-united with their soul - both of which are destined to perish utterly. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ez. 18:4).

Nevermind about what others believe about the wicked dead's body being raised. I'm asking why people believe in annihilation --not why you do not believe as others do about the physical body of the reprobate.

People such as myself believe in annihilation because the Scriptures teach it. God never intended His created universe to perpetually sustain the life of the wicked's existence - not even in a tormented after-life scenario. He is "long-suffering", but Scripture teaches that His patience eventually does come to an end.

Remember how Genesis 3:22 writes God's thoughts on the possibility of a newly-fallen Adam and Eve eating of the tree of life. "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:................." This statement is left hanging without being finished, as if God Himself could not bear to even speak of the horrible state of affairs it would produce to have wicked mankind perpetually living forever in that condition. This is something that God never, never desired to happen. Instead, the wicked are destined to perish in the judgment, both body and soul, so that neither of these exist anymore to pollute God's universe.

And you are saying that is about the souls of the wicked? Burning up the souls? I suppose you intend that to be after they are raised to condemnation. Just trying to anchor down your terms here. Not sure how vaguely you are dealing with this. "Pile of ashes" doesn't sound like annihilated soul, to me,

You are asking me just how the eternal God as the Source of that eternal fiery stream coming from His throne manages to burn up the souls of the wicked when those souls are raised for the judgment. I can't possibly describe how this is done; all I know is that God uses these terms of "treading ashes underfoot" and "burned up like chaff" and "consumed" to help our finite minds understand that He does not intend for the souls of the wicked - or their mortal remains which are left in the ground - to survive after that judgment.

What has Satan to do with the question of the annihilation of the souls of the reprobate? The eternal fire that was prepared for Satan and his minions, which I take to be the LOF, is where the reprobate also are sent upon being judged (Matt 25), and there also is where the Bible says death and hell will be thrown, and, that in the same context as the judgement (Rev 20) I take to be the same as in Matt 25, and it is reiterated there, that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will also go there.

All of that was true, and it all happened in the AD 66-70 period of the "days of vengeance" in Jerusalem as it was being destroyed down to the ground for the second time. The believers had already heeded Christ's warning by obediently fleeing the city of Jerusalem back in AD 66 to avoid all those tormenting disasters for the living, besieged inhabitants of the city. That meant the wicked were living inside Jerusalem's walls, along with the entire host of Satan and his devils who were also imprisoned in the city during those years, possessing and tormenting the wicked persons imprisoned within the city (Rev. 18:2 and Is. 24:21-23). The eternal God is the source of the "eternal fire" coming from His throne: which "eternal fire" had been prepared for the entire Satanic realm until God had destroyed them all to ashes on the earth by the close of AD 70.

I bring up this subject of Satan's annihilation by being reduced to ashes on the earth, because most people believe that the angels as well as the souls of men are immortal spirit beings, incapable of destruction. That deathless condition is true only of the "elect angels" in heaven and of elect, resurrected humanity. The disobedient angels who followed Satan shared in the same fate of destruction in the city of Jerusalem's Lake of Fire conditions, along with their leader back in AD 70.

It was the great white throne judgment before God's throne in heaven where the souls of the wicked dead were judged in AD 70. This was just as Paul had told Timothy around AD 67, that God was "about to judge the living AND the dead at His appearance AND His kingdom " (2 Tim. 4:1). The living wicked in Jerusalem were punished on earth by the entire Satanic realm tormenting them, and the souls of the wicked dead were judged in heaven. before God's throne - both taking place in AD 70.

 

[makesends]

I am emphasizing the distinction between the soul of mankind and the mortal remains of the physical body form because Scripture does so. Humanity was created as a composite being, and spiritual death brought upon us in Adam has caused repercussions on humanity's physical body as well. Every person conceived by a fallen Adam has physically died, because "death passed upon all men" (Rom. 5:12).

Not everyone will be bodily resurrected. Only those who were given eternal life of the spirit in this life will be bodily raised out of the dust of the grave and avoid annihilation. For those who were NOT given eternal life of the spirit at some point in their natural lifetime their souls will still be required to show up before the judgment throne of God. But their mortal remains never rise to be re-united with their soul - both of which are destined to perish utterly. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ez. 18:4).

People such as myself believe in annihilation because the Scriptures teach it. God never intended His created universe to perpetually sustain the life of the wicked's existence - not even in a tormented after-life scenario. He is "long-suffering", but Scripture teaches that His patience eventually does come to an end.

Remember how Genesis 3:22 writes God's thoughts on the possibility of a newly-fallen Adam and Eve eating of the tree of life. "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:................." This statement is left hanging without being finished, as if God Himself could not bear to even speak of the horrible state of affairs it would produce to have wicked mankind perpetually living forever in that condition. This is something that God never, never desired to happen. Instead, the wicked are destined to perish in the judgment, both body and soul, so that neither of these exist anymore to pollute God's universe.


You are asking me just how the eternal God as the Source of that eternal fiery stream coming from His throne manages to burn up the souls of the wicked when those souls are raised for the judgment. I can't possibly describe how this is done; all I know is that God uses these terms of "treading ashes underfoot" and "burned up like chaff" and "consumed" to help our finite minds understand that He does not intend for the souls of the wicked - or their mortal remains which are left in the ground - to survive after that judgment.


All of that was true, and it all happened in the AD 66-70 period of the "days of vengeance" in Jerusalem as it was being destroyed down to the ground for the second time. The believers had already heeded Christ's warning by obediently fleeing the city of Jerusalem back in AD 66 to avoid all those tormenting disasters for the living, besieged inhabitants of the city. That meant the wicked were living inside Jerusalem's walls, along with the entire host of Satan and his devils who were also imprisoned in the city during those years, possessing and tormenting the wicked persons imprisoned within the city (Rev. 18:2 and Is. 24:21-23). The eternal God is the source of the "eternal fire" coming from His throne: which "eternal fire" had been prepared for the entire Satanic realm until God had destroyed them all to ashes on the earth by the close of AD 70.

I bring up this subject of Satan's annihilation by being reduced to ashes on the earth, because most people believe that the angels as well as the souls of men are immortal spirit beings, incapable of destruction. That deathless condition is true only of the "elect angels" in heaven and of elect, resurrected humanity. The disobedient angels who followed Satan shared in the same fate of destruction in the city of Jerusalem's Lake of Fire conditions, along with their leader back in AD 70.

It was the great white throne judgment before God's throne in heaven where the souls of the wicked dead were judged in AD 70. This was just as Paul had told Timothy around AD 67, that God was "about to judge the living AND the dead at His appearance AND His kingdom " (2 Tim. 4:1). The living wicked in Jerusalem were punished on earth by the entire Satanic realm tormenting them, and the souls of the wicked dead were judged in heaven. before God's throne - both taking place in AD 70.

Two things you continue to do. One is to press forward with the assertion that the physical bodies of the reprobate are not raised, though Scriptures (as I demonstrated) say that the reprobate ARE raised (not differentiating there between soul, body and spirit.), as though it was relevant to your argument The other thing you do is to take what is usually taken as a future event and claim (for no other reason than to suppose it to be better to take the imminent 'feel' of Christ's (et al) predictions as accomplished in 70 a.d.

So far, I've seen no relevance for the claim about the physical bodies of the reprobate. The fact that Scripture might teach it seems no more relevant than the many other things Scripture teaches.

To relegate Christ's (et al) predictions to 70 a.d. to me seems iffy. I find no justification for it, though I admit I have no proof that it is otherwise. I won't bother to look into historic Christendom's various uses of those passages to draw a conclusion as to orthodoxy's stance on the matter. I say that to mention that to go against Orthodoxy is generally suspect.

 

[Josheb]

I want to hear a description of the several ways people arrive at the conclusion of eventual annihilation of the reprobate.


I want to hear the Reasoning, Use of Scripture, and What is each participant's concept of Annihilation. What does it mean, what does it look like, within eternity, what is its relationship to eternity? —For that matter, what does each mean by, 'eternity'? What really is sin and death? What is existence?

There are a lot of tangents to pursue, and probably most will be consider relevant to the OP (at least by me).

Part 1:
There are two Greek words used for "destruction." One of them means "corruption," "decay," "perish," or "rot." Some of our English translations translate the Greek that way. Some, don't. The other word literally means lost or destroyed to the cessation of its existence. The two words are "phthora" and "apollymi".

2 Peter 2:10-13
Reckless, self-centered, they speak abusively of angelic majesties without trembling, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a demeaning judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime.

The word used (twice) in this passage is phthora.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The word used there is apolesai. Jesus is using a word that indicates a cessation of existence.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The word used there is a conjugation of phthora. The implication being the decay experienced by those not sowing to the Spirit is eternal.


Part 2:
Jesus speaks both literally and figuratively about what happens in the end. Figurative examples would be the imagery of chaff tossed into a fire (Mt. 3:12) or weeds tossed into a fire or furnace (Mt. 13:40, 42), or everyone that gets tossed into a fiery lake in Revelation 20 (see verses 14-15). Either these are figurative allusions referencing a very real event or God has three fiery things in which to toss people (a fire for the chaff, a furnace, for the weeds, and a lake of fire for everyone else). The salient pint is that in normal, ordinary observation and experience anything tossed into a fire gets destroyed and destroyed to the point of ceasing to exist. The common, typical, protest is Jesus' mention of Gehenna, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem where a person's "worm" never dies (Isa. 66:24). This does not conflict or contradict the imagery of annihilating fire because it refers to the enormity of the destruction, not the existence of the one destroyed. Gehenna, being a trash pit, was a place filled with rot and decay (phthora) but eventually whatever was thrown there rotted to the point at which it one day ceased to exist. When organic material decays it gives of methane and methane is highly combustible, so most trash pits also catch fire. That is why most municipal trash heaps have methane vents. Some of them explode (on rare occasion) because of insufficient venting. Because of the enormity of the trash the fire, and the rotting decay, continue forever. As long as there is fuel the fire burns, as long as bodies continue to be dumped the decay ensues.

Which segues into the third point of evidence.



Part 3:
In Revelation, the fiery lake is said to be so destructive that even death dies. Paul wrote the Corinthians, informing them the last enemy destroyed is death (1 Cor. 15:26). The Greek word used there is "katargeitai" (G2673), which is better translated as "abolished," "nullified," or "voided," carrying with it the connotation of no longer existing. What this means, logically speaking, is a simple, blunt, brute dichotomy: Either death is not literally destroyed in the fiery lake to the point it no longer exists, or death continues on after the final judgment and the death lives on when the new city of peace descends from heaven. If the latter, then death is not really dead and death will continue to operate within the renewal of all things. If the former then death is dead; it no longer exists. That fiery lake is so lethal it kills death itself, along with everything else thrown into the lake with it.


Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


A person dies, and then God kills the dead.

Unless the person is already dead in Christ.

I, therefore, conclude there may be an extended period of time in which torturous decay exists but, in the end, an individual rots and decays or is consumed in violent, protracted punishment to the point s/he eventually ceases to exist, but God is not maintaining a trash heap, a rotting pile of corrupted, rotting corpses forever.

 

[makesends]

Part 1:
There are two Greek words used for "destruction." One of them means "corruption," "decay," "perish," or "rot." Some of our English translations translate the Greek that way. Some, don't. The other word literally means lost or destroyed to the cessation of its existence. The two words are "phthora" and "apollymi".

2 Peter 2:10-13
Reckless, self-centered, they speak abusively of angelic majesties without trembling, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a demeaning judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime.

The word used (twice) in this passage is phthora.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The word used there is apolesai. Jesus is using a word that indicates a cessation of existence.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The word used there is a conjugation of phthora. The implication being the decay experienced by those not sowing to the Spirit is eternal.


Part 2:
Jesus speaks both literally and figuratively about what happens in the end. Figurative examples would be the imagery of chaff tossed into a fire (Mt. 3:12) or weeds tossed into a fire or furnace (Mt. 13:40, 42), or everyone that gets tossed into a fiery lake in Revelation 20 (see verses 14-15). Either these are figurative allusions referencing a very real event or God has three fiery things in which to toss people (a fire for the chaff, a furnace, for the weeds, and a lake of fire for everyone else). The salient pint is that in normal, ordinary observation and experience anything tossed into a fire gets destroyed and destroyed to the point of ceasing to exist. The common, typical, protest is Jesus' mention of Gehenna, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem where a person's "worm" never dies (Isa. 66:24). This does not conflict or contradict the imagery of annihilating fire because it refers to the enormity of the destruction, not the existence of the one destroyed. Gehenna, being a trash pit, was a place filled with rot and decay (phthora) but eventually whatever was thrown there rotted to the point at which it one day ceased to exist. When organic material decays it gives of methane and methane is highly combustible, so most trash pits also catch fire. That is why most municipal trash heaps have methane vents. Some of them explode (on rare occasion) because of insufficient venting. Because of the enormity of the trash the fire, and the rotting decay, continue forever. As long as there is fuel the fire burns, as long as bodies continue to be dumped the decay ensues.

Which segues into the third point of evidence.



Part 3:
In Revelation, the fiery lake is said to be so destructive that even death dies. Paul wrote the Corinthians, informing them the last enemy destroyed is death (1 Cor. 15:26). The Greek word used there is "katargeitai" (G2673), which is better translated as "abolished," "nullified," or "voided," carrying with it the connotation of no longer existing. What this means, logically speaking, is a simple, blunt, brute dichotomy: Either death is not literally destroyed in the fiery lake to the point it no longer exists, or death continues on after the final judgment and the death lives on when the new city of peace descends from heaven. If the latter, then death is not really dead and death will continue to operate within the renewal of all things. If the former then death is dead; it no longer exists. That fiery lake is so lethal it kills death itself, along with everything else thrown into the lake with it.


Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


A person dies, and then God kills the dead.

Unless the person is already dead in Christ.

I, therefore, conclude there may be an extended period of time in which torturous decay exists but, in the end, an individual rots and decays or is consumed in violent, protracted punishment to the point s/he eventually ceases to exist, but God is not maintaining a trash heap, a rotting pile of corrupted, rotting corpses forever.

Now there is a cogent post. Thank you.

I concede to all that the Bible usually speaks in terms of time passaage after this life, even in Revelation, (thousand years, half-of-7 years, "a space of about half an hour", "for ever and ever"). That it means what we do by this passage of time, I don't concede, though honestly I don't know how to deal with it except as anthropomorphism. That, I say, though I do know we have many hints that time is insignificant in some way, as part of the solid reality of what eternity is --not as though it is altogether antithetical to eternity.

Anyway, I see what you say here, as, (granted, "Biblically"), dependent on time passage. Do you have any reason to say that what happens to the reprobate is not, as I tend to think, a matter of intensity---time irrelevant? If I was to call myself an annihilationist, that would be all that I would mean by it. It fits all the questions I can find to ask.

There is, of course, a lot more, in such things as what it means that "there is no more memory of them". What is memory? Are we not going to sing his praises forever for what he has done, and mention the evidences of his justice? You rightly demonstrate, as I too agree, that it makes no sense to think that he will continue to uphold the "existence" of corruption or evil. Yet truth itself contains the truth that it was so (that it happened). God's "timelessness" (I say as an ignorant human) implies that he spoke all fact into existence and it was complete. If, like time, evil and all that antithetical to good and to life is part of what it took to accomplish it, the entirety of what God is and has done, will in no part become 'un-fact'. The 'was' vs. 'is', at that "point" (I say as an ignorant human) in which we may be considering his greatness, will be obvious--but not necessarily time-relevant.

I wish I knew how to be more plain. I grant that the lack of being able to do so may be from the lack of obvious evidences or more direct statements from Scripture.

 

[Josheb]

Now there is a cogent post. Thank you.

I concede to all that the Bible usually speaks in terms of time passaage after this life, even in Revelation, (thousand years, half-of-7 years, "a space of about half an hour", "for ever and ever"). That it means what we do by this passage of time, I don't concede, though honestly I don't know how to deal with it except as anthropomorphism. That, I say, though I do know we have many hints that time is insignificant in some way, as part of the solid reality of what eternity is --not as though it is altogether antithetical to eternity.

Welll.... that is a great observation but...

1) the unsaved do not inherit eternity, and 2) heaven isn't eternal. I may have misspoken in my op reply when I said the implication og Galatians 6:8 is the destruction is, likewise, eternal. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that because I will amend that statement to say the destruction is everlasting. Eternity is without beginning or end. Everlasting has a beginning but no end. HUGE difference between the two. Since both creation (the heavens and the earth) and humans have a beginning, what Jesus was describing in Galatians 6:8 is not a measure of time. It's the quality of the life reaped, not its quantity. It's akin to Jesus saying, "I came so that they would have life and have it abundantly" (Jn. 10:10). He said that to animated corpses; people who were breathing air and pumping blood but dead in sin. The life Jesus provides is a sinless life, a life without sin. Whoever hears his word and believes God who sent him, has eternal life and will not come under judgment (Jn. 5:24). That is a qualitatively different life than the kind owned by the animated corpse. Therefore, take these verses and apply them to Galatians 6:8. Those sowing to the flesh do not reap eternal life; the reap everlasting destruction. It is apportioned for man to live once, die, and then face judgment. All get judged. Not all get eternal life. Everyone bows the knee and professes Christ as Lord, not everyone bows the knee and is able to profess him as Savior.

Temporally speaking, eternity is endless in both directions (no beginning and no end), whereas everlasting is unidirectional. God alone is eternal. The life we will possess on the other side of the grave will be that of God's. We'll be partakers in the tree of life that is Christ.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

Partaking of Christ, we live forever. Not partaking of Christ, the rotting, decaying, teeth-gnashing destruction is forever.

Anyway, I see what you say here, as, (granted, "Biblically"), dependent on time passage. Do you have any reason to say that what happens to the reprobate is not, as I tend to think, a matter of intensity --- time irrelevant?

I do not think the two are mutually exclusive conditions. Time may be different in heaven than it is on earth, but time still exists. Only God is eternal. Heaven is temporal. God created the heavens and the earth. Both have a beginning, and both will be made anew. Their being made new does not suspend time or make them extra-temporal. Only God is eternal. Only God is extra-temporal.

If I was to call myself an annihilationist, that would be all that I would mean by it. It fits all the questions I can find to ask.

There is, of course, a lot more....

I disagree. It's not particularly complicated. Everyone dies and, once dead, the options are binary: everlasting eternal life, or everlasting destruction that scripture describes, both figuratively and literally, as the cessation of existence. God could, at this very minute (pun intended ), not only erase your existence, or my existence, from existence. He could also make it so there was.is/never will be any record of our existence.

, in such things as what it means that "there is no more memory of them". What is memory?

Memory is nothing more than a record. Everything gets recorded. Not everything gets remembered or recalled. If or when something has no memory, then it has no record. The record is gone. It is..... annihilated .

Are we not going to sing his praises forever for what he has done, and mention the evidences of his justice?

That depends on who "we" is. We, the redeemed, will do so. Or, rather, that is my current position. it's getting digressive but salvation is very much about grace. mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation. This is the sole privilege of humans, those created in God's image. No angel knows these things. I, therefore, do not see how we will ever no possess the record of divine attributes, His grace, mercy, forgiveness, and conciliatory attributes. These were what we created for - to glorify God.

That changes everything. It changes the way in which sin is understood. As I have asserted many times in many threads, sin is not a problem for God and salvation is not a contingency plan. Adam disobeys God and God says, "Meh. Got it covered preemptively. Not a problem". Humans fret over theological dilemmas that don't exist. Because humans were made to die, and die once and then face judgment, sin simply adds to the human condition of corruptibility. The corruptible became corrupt. From the beginning the problem to be solved (from our perspective), the purpose of the human lifespan and the history of creation, was to create a beings made in God's image who possess eternal life and an ontological understanding of grace, mercy, redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation and qualitatively eternal life that is everlasting.

The memories, or the recall of what gets recorded changes, not the existence of a record. Whatever else God's promises to do away with any record may mean, it cannot mean history itself is deleted. If that were the case ALL the testimonies of God as Promise-Keeper will have to go, too.

You rightly demonstrate, as I too agree, that it makes no sense to think that he will continue to uphold the "existence" of corruption or evil. Yet truth itself contains the truth that it was so (that it happened).

For a time.

God's "timelessness" (I say as an ignorant human) implies that he spoke all fact into existence and it was complete.

I disagree.

Take, for example, the seventh day, the day of rest. God rested, but the almighty omni-attributed God did not need to rest as if He were weary or fatigued. Such a premise would be irreconcilable with the whole of scripture. The seventh day is Christological. The seventh day is the day on which Christ entered the grave but did not experience any corruption. By the next morning, he was raised and all of history was redefined. God had finished all His work in six days, but it took an entire history to play out. When history has run its course as God intended, He will redefine it again..... according to His plan for creation in His Son. It is in the Son that we find our rest (contrary to the arguments made by seventh-day sabbathers).

All the facts of creation were spoken into existence and the speaking was complete, but it played out within time..... until completion. God is timeless or, more accurately, extra-temporal, but creation is not. Creation is not and will not be complete until its purpose is fulfilled.

If, like time, evil and all that antithetical to good and to life is part of what it took to accomplish it, the entirety of what God is and has done, will in no part become 'un-fact'......

Perhaps, but you're getting far afield from what happens to humans who die in sin apart from Christ. Take care not to conflate categories (what happens to sinners, versus what happens to history). Those who die saved from sin by Christ are raised incorruptible and immortal. Those who die dead in sin, unsaved by Christ, suffer the second death, and that death is so lethal it kills death. Death dies. It is no more. It is annihilated.

That is history .

 

[Josheb]

I wish I knew how to be more plain. I grant that the lack of being able to do so may be from the lack of obvious evidences or more direct statements from Scripture.

Thank you for the words of appreciation, btw. The appreciation is appreciated.

If it was sincere, then own it for yourself. If whole scripture was correctly represented (and I have sampled from Genesis to Revelation, as well as every genre of the written word, using scripture itself - not post-canonical doctrines - to render scripture) then believe it. John Stott was an annihilationist. See if you can track down Stott's argument. He falls well within the orthodoxy of Reformed thought, doctrine, and practice and was confronting viewpoints held by liberal theologies in that book. The problem with nowadays with annihilationism is that it is associated with cult doctrines and practices. The SDA, JW's, Christadelphians, and Open theists subscribe to that point of view but guilt by association is not a logical argument. Personally, I think Open theist Clark Pinnock makes a very good case for conditional immortality in the original version of "Four Views on Hell," but it's not much different than the case classic Reformed thinker John Stackhouse makes in the remake of the same book (I suspect the book was redone because the mainstream, orthodox resistance to Open Theism and any implication that theology falls within the pale of orthodoxy). Historically speaking, roots of the annihilationist pov can be found in the ECFs and it had some prominence about 500 years after the ECFs' era. It's hard to pinpoint a specific origin because the ECFs were diverse and little got formalized for the first 400 years. It's like trying to pin down a specific eschatological doctrine among the ECFs. There was none.


Personally, I think what happens in the end has nothing to do with hell and everything to do with God. "Hel," was a place of pagan mythology, a term scripture uses solely as a reference to cultural understanding of Biblical times. Jesus never said there people went to live under the rule of a lesser god because there are no lesser gods. There is only God, and Gd alone. He' is not farming the dead out to Pluto, Hephaestus, Vulcan, Hel, or Hades (or Osiris, the Morrigan, or Nergal). Those are names of pagan gods. When a person dies s/he stands before God.

 

[makesends]

Welll.... that is a great observation but...

1) the unsaved do not inherit eternity, and 2) heaven isn't eternal. I may have misspoken in my op reply when I said the implication og Galatians 6:8 is the destruction is, likewise, eternal. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that because I will amend that statement to say the destruction is everlasting. Eternity is without beginning or end. Everlasting has a beginning but no end. HUGE difference between the two. Since both creation (the heavens and the earth) and humans have a beginning, what Jesus was describing in Galatians 6:8 is not a measure of time. It's the quality of the life reaped, not its quantity. It's akin to Jesus saying, "I came so that they would have life and have it abundantly" (Jn. 10:10). He said that to animated corpses; people who were breathing air and pumping blood but dead in sin. The life Jesus provides is a sinless life, a life without sin. Whoever hears his word and believes God who sent him, has eternal life and will not come under judgment (Jn. 5:24). That is a qualitatively different life than the kind owned by the animated corpse. Therefore, take these verses and apply them to Galatians 6:8. Those sowing to the flesh do not reap eternal life; the reap everlasting destruction. It is apportioned for man to live once, die, and then face judgment. All get judged. Not all get eternal life. Everyone bows the knee and professes Christ as Lord, not everyone bows the knee and is able to profess him as Savior.

Temporally speaking, eternity is endless in both directions (no beginning and no end), whereas everlasting is unidirectional. God alone is eternal. The life we will possess on the other side of the grave will be that of God's. We'll be partakers in the tree of life that is Christ.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

Partaking of Christ, we live forever. Not partaking of Christ, the rotting, decaying, teeth-gnashing destruction is forever.

I do not think the two are mutually exclusive conditions. Time may be different in heaven than it is on earth, but time still exists. Only God is eternal. Heaven is temporal. God created the heavens and the earth. Both have a beginning, and both will be made anew. Their being made new does not suspend time or make them extra-temporal. Only God is eternal. Only God is extra-temporal.

I disagree. It's not particularly complicated. Everyone dies and, once dead, the options are binary: everlasting eternal life, or everlasting destruction that scripture describes, both figuratively and literally, as the cessation of existence. God could, at this very minute (pun intended ), not only erase your existence, or my existence, from existence. He could also make it so there was.is/never will be any record of our existence.

Memory is nothing more than a record. Everything gets recorded. Not everything gets remembered or recalled. If or when something has no memory, then it has no record. The record is gone. It is..... annihilated .

That depends on who "we" is. We, the redeemed, will do so. Or, rather, that is my current position. it's getting digressive but salvation is very much about grace. mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation. This is the sole privilege of humans, those created in God's image. No angel knows these things. I, therefore, do not see how we will ever no possess the record of divine attributes, His grace, mercy, forgiveness, and conciliatory attributes. These were what we created for - to glorify God.

That changes everything. It changes the way in which sin is understood. As I have asserted many times in many threads, sin is not a problem for God and salvation is not a contingency plan. Adam disobeys God and God says, "Meh. Got it covered preemptively. Not a problem". Humans fret over theological dilemmas that don't exist. Because humans were made to die, and die once and then face judgment, sin simply adds to the human condition of corruptibility. The corruptible became corrupt. From the beginning the problem to be solved (from our perspective), the purpose of the human lifespan and the history of creation, was to create a beings made in God's image who possess eternal life and an ontological understanding of grace, mercy, redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation and qualitatively eternal life that is everlasting.

The memories, or the recall of what gets recorded changes, not the existence of a record. Whatever else God's promises to do away with any record may mean, it cannot mean history itself is deleted. If that were the case ALL the testimonies of God as Promise-Keeper will have to go, too.

For a time.

I disagree.

Take, for example, the seventh day, the day of rest. God rested, but the almighty omni-attributed God did not need to rest as if He were weary or fatigued. Such a premise would be irreconcilable with the whole of scripture. The seventh day is Christological. The seventh day is the day on which Christ entered the grave but did not experience any corruption. By the next morning, he was raised and all of history was redefined. God had finished all His work in six days, but it took an entire history to play out. When history has run its course as God intended, He will redefine it again..... according to His plan for creation in His Son. It is in the Son that we find our rest (contrary to the arguments made by seventh-day sabbathers).

All the facts of creation were spoken into existence and the speaking was complete, but it played out within time..... until completion. God is timeless or, more accurately, extra-temporal, but creation is not. Creation is not and will not be complete until its purpose is fulfilled.

Perhaps, but you're getting far afield from what happens to humans who die in sin apart from Christ. Take care not to conflate categories (what happens to sinners, versus what happens to history). Those who die saved from sin by Christ are raised incorruptible and immortal. Those who die dead in sin, unsaved by Christ, suffer the second death, and that death is so lethal it kills death. Death dies. It is no more. It is annihilated.

That is history .

We need a rating for, "Nice play on words/pun!"

 

[makesends]

Thank you for the words of appreciation, btw. The appreciation is appreciated.

If it was sincere, then own it for yourself. If whole scripture was correctly represented (and I have sampled from Genesis to Revelation, as well as every genre of the written word, using scripture itself - not post-canonical doctrines - to render scripture) then believe it. John Stott was an annihilationist. See if you can track down Stott's argument. He falls well within the orthodoxy of Reformed thought, doctrine, and practice and was confronting viewpoints held by liberal theologies in that book. The problem with nowadays with annihilationism is that it is associated with cult doctrines and practices. The SDA, JW's, Christadelphians, and Open theists subscribe to that point of view but guilt by association is not a logical argument. Personally, I think Open theist Clark Pinnock makes a very good case for conditional immortality in the original version of "Four Views on Hell," but it's not much different than the case classic Reformed thinker John Stackhouse makes in the remake of the same book (I suspect the book was redone because the mainstream, orthodox resistance to Open Theism and any implication that theology falls within the pale of orthodoxy). Historically speaking, roots of the annihilationist pov can be found in the ECFs and it had some prominence about 500 years after the ECFs' era. It's hard to pinpoint a specific origin because the ECFs were diverse and little got formalized for the first 400 years. It's like trying to pin down a specific eschatological doctrine among the ECFs. There was none.


Personally, I think what happens in the end has nothing to do with hell and everything to do with God. "Hel," was a place of pagan mythology, a term scripture uses solely as a reference to cultural understanding of Biblical times. Jesus never said there people went to live under the rule of a lesser god because there are no lesser gods. There is only God, and Gd alone. He' is not farming the dead out to Pluto, Hephaestus, Vulcan, Hel, or Hades (or Osiris, the Morrigan, or Nergal). Those are names of pagan gods. When a person dies s/he stands before God.

My problem with "Annihilationism" has more to do with what the Annihilationist means by it, or how they arrived at whatever they mean by it, than with apparent contradictions with Scriptural statements.

 

[Josheb]

My problem with "Annihilationism" has more to do with what the Annihilationist means by it, or how they arrived at whatever they mean by it, than with apparent contradictions with Scriptural statements.

Words have meaning. Ambiguity and relativism are things to be avoided, not used to qualify a discussion. Perhaps you, if there is genuine concern about that problem, would like to define the term as you mean it to be defined, understood, and used for the sake of this discussion. If you do, be as specific as you can be so as to preclude such problems. Otherwise, the word "annihilate" means to destroy utterly, or obliterate, and that is how I have used the word in my posts.

While there may be a period of protracted, torturous suffering characterized by rotting decay for the dead outside of Christ, caused by the corruption of sin, the end is the cessation of existence.

 

[makesends]

Words have meaning. Ambiguity and relativism are things to be avoided, not used to qualify a discussion. Perhaps you, if there is genuine concern about that problem, would like to define the term as you mean it to be defined, understood, and used for the sake of this discussion. If you do, be as specific as you can be so as to preclude such problems. Otherwise, the word "annihilate" means to destroy utterly, or obliterate, and that is how I have used the word in my posts.

While there may be a period of protracted, torturous suffering characterized by rotting decay for the dead outside of Christ, caused by the corruption of sin, the end is the cessation of existence.

Then perhaps I was not clear what I mean by, "what they mean by annihilation". If their notion of annihilation is drawn on notions of, for example, protracted time of torment coming to an end for the reprobate, then I have a problem with it, because that is not what Scripture sounds like. On the other hand, if it is drawn only on the idea that it is the easiest way to state the fact that God will not continue to uphold the existence of death, evil and corruption, that DOES sound like Scripture.

 

[Hobie]

I want to hear a description of the several ways people arrive at the conclusion of eventual annihilation of the reprobate.


I want to hear the Reasoning, Use of Scripture, and What is each participant's concept of Annihilation. What does it mean, what does it look like, within eternity, what is its relationship to eternity? —For that matter, what does each mean by, 'eternity'? What really is sin and death? What is existence?

There are a lot of tangents to pursue, and probably most will be consider relevant to the OP (at least by me).

I think Gods Word is clear that only the Saints will be given and have eternal life, not the Wicked. The wicked will perish forever even though God has the power to resurrect, but at the end the wicked will be separated from Him and cease to exist as punishment, and sin will be no more. Now lets take a look and see if it is a eternal torment of sinners that happen with fires there are never quenched, and God and the saints watch them linger on. But then do the wicked get to live forever too, with the Devil in charge with his minions tormenting the sinners in a underworld, does it mean that the fire doesn't consume. Lets see what the scripture says.

The Devil from the beginning has tried to present God as a liar, who does not tell man the truth about sin, which Satan is the father of. Let start with Gen 2:15-17..
Genesis 2:15-17
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Who was telling the truth, God, or the serpent (Satan)?

Deuteronomy 32:1-4
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

And Christ is even clearer...

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So where are those people who are “dead”, we have those saints who died and are in the grave, and we have the wicked who went to the grave without Christ? Have they gone to heaven and hell, the answer is simple, when they die, both will end up in the same place. The saints await the resurrection and the life (eternal life) that Christ will give them when He comes. The wicked dead await their punishment the wicked alive, or those without Christ are simply the walking dead. If they will not choose Christ in this life, they will die the second death, which is final. Those of course who have never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged according their response to the Holy Spirit as God is merciful and judges all.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How could God who says that He is love, then burn billions of people in hell for all eternity, is that the God we serve? To the contrary, there is far greater scriptural evidence that they perish, cease to exist and sin and the devil are no more, than for those who believe in eternal torment.

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es.--intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.
Job 4:20
They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

Job 20:7
Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:1-3
1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Psalm 73:27
For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Psalm 112:10
The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isaiah 41:11-12
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Then we see those who will not perish but have the life that is eternal..

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The fate of the wicked is they will perish, be burned up, suffer the fate of Sodom and Gomorrha..

2 Peter 3:9-12
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. It is one thing to disagree with a doctrine that scripture teaches, it is another to take up false doctrines that elevate Satan to the one in charge and leave the wicked to continue forever with him or maybe be 'purified' by him as some believe then go to heaven. The saints await the resurrection and the life which Christ promised, the wicked will perish and be separated from Christ and be no more.

 

[Josheb]

Then perhaps I was not clear what I mean by, "what they mean by annihilation". If their notion of annihilation is drawn on notions of, for example, protracted time of torment coming to an end for the reprobate, then I have a problem with it, because that is not what Scripture sounds like. On the other hand, if it is drawn only on the idea that it is the easiest way to state the fact that God will not continue to uphold the existence of death, evil and corruption, that DOES sound like Scripture.

What is the difference?

 

[Hobie]

Now lets look at the 'second death' where the wicked perish...

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms as you see here in Revelation and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God, their eternal state is one of eternal "death" the separation from God for their sin and unbelief.

John 8:21
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That the second death is annihilation is shown by the many verses describing what will be eternal in the sense of never to be resurrected or a final death, as God will carry out the wages of sin.

Now lets read Rev. 20 to see more on the resurrection at the end and what Jesus taught.

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Only the saved are alive during the thousand years and go up to heaven and reign with Christ, and the wicked are not cast into the lake of fire until the thousand years is over. So the saints are taken up in the second coming, and the rest who are wicked, that is the unsaved, do not live again until the end of the thousand years.

Christ Himself taught two resurrections, one of the righteous saints who he raises up and takes with him to heaven, and are reigning in heaven with Jesus. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Rev 20:5) The unrighteous are dead. But then after the thousand years of the saints reigning in heaven we see, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". (Rev 20:7-8) Here is where the wicked are brought up for their destruction at the second death after the thousand years.

And here we have more on the two resurrections at the end of time in a nutshell..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
and supported by many verses..
Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And the first resurrection is of the saints not the wicked as the verses make clear. The wicked are going to suffer the second death which is damnation in the lake of fire. So now lets look at what the punishment of 'eternal fire' which the wicked will suffer.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I also know many believers, particularly among those of us who became Christians as older teens and adults, who credit the traditional Biblical teaching of everlasting torment in Hell as being an influence (to one degree or another) in their choice to finally come to saving faith and believe.

On the one hand, cases of older teens and adults coming to faith in Christ in order to avoid the threat of the traditional teaching of an everlasting torment in Hell results in a good thing - those who have become Christians.

But on the other hand, this same traditional teaching of eternal conscious torment for the wicked has also resulted in many being utterly repulsed by Christianity, if it is represented by God acting as a sadist throughout all eternity.

"Let us do evil that good may come." is never a recommended course of action in Scripture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Two things you continue to do. One is to press forward with the assertion that the physical bodies of the reprobate are not raised, though Scriptures (as I demonstrated) say that the reprobate ARE raised (not differentiating there between soul, body and spirit.), as though it was relevant to your argument

I continue to press forward with the statement that the physical bodies of the reprobate are not raised, because Isaiah 26:14 wrote this point blank, as well as the rest of the Scriptures teaching an utter destruction for both body and soul of the wicked dead. When Christ teaches about a "resurrection to destruction" for the wicked in John 5:28-29, on the surface this statement appears to be in conflict with Isaiah, but we know it must reconcile with Isaiah teaching that the bodies of the wicked dead "shall not rise" and will perish by being left to disintegrate in the dust of the grave. Therefore, Christ's somewhat ambiguous statement (which as you say does not differentiate between soul, body and spirit) must be referring only to the souls of the wicked dead having that "resurrection to destruction", instead of His referring to their mortal remains rising in a bodily resurrection. This is the only way to avoid a contradiction between the Scriptures.

I do agree with you that not all prophecies are relegated to fulfillment in AD 70. The "sealed up" prophecies uttered by the seven thunders in Revelation 10:4 tell us that there were going to be some unwritten prophecies that would be reserved for times distant from the imminent events for that first-century generation which Revelation was describing.

 

[Hobie]

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age.( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time.), perpetual,
eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,
perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.

The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of 'eternal' and the words 'for ever', 'everlasting' and the various forms of 'unquenchable', 'not be quenched'. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes dont equate to our modern meaning of "forever".

In today's usage these terms mean 'for the ceaseless ages of eternity' for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other "I'll love you forever" but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is 'they love each other until death', right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesnt necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.

So context is very important as since the word, or words translated in English as forever, do not always mean the same. So it is important to know what the rest of scripture says in relation to any given topic the word is used in, and the context of what is being talked about in relation to the words. Since scripture clearly states that the wicked will come to an end and perish in many places, we have to discern how its used as there is no good reason to apply eternity to them regarding the use of words, which do not always mean the same. This is only to make the word of God contradict itself. If what we believe makes the word of God contradict itself, then the problem is definitely with what we believe, not the word of God. So, let's look at how the word is used and what the Bible writers concept of forever was:

Genesis 43:9
I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

Genesis 44:32
For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.

This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to mans sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as until it is done.

Exodus 12:14
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17
And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:24
And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Here Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover. The key in this verse is the part that says by an ordinance. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross and there arent any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that forever does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.

Let's get some more examples..
Exodus 19:9
And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

The question here is, how can the people 'believe thee for ever' if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get resurrected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything their thoughts are nil. The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day and fire from at night, was no longer seen after Moses death. So, again, for ever does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.

And more..
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 27:21
In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.

Exodus 28:43
And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. Again, we find the meaning of for ever to mean until it is done.

 

[makesends]

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age.( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time.), perpetual,
eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,
perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.

The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of 'eternal' and the words 'for ever', 'everlasting' and the various forms of 'unquenchable', 'not be quenched'. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes dont equate to our modern meaning of "forever".

In today's usage these terms mean 'for the ceaseless ages of eternity' for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other "I'll love you forever" but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is 'they love each other until death', right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesnt necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.

So context is very important as since the word, or words translated in English as forever, do not always mean the same. So it is important to know what the rest of scripture says in relation to any given topic the word is used in, and the context of what is being talked about in relation to the words. Since scripture clearly states that the wicked will come to an end and perish in many places, we have to discern how its used as there is no good reason to apply eternity to them regarding the use of words, which do not always mean the same. This is only to make the word of God contradict itself. If what we believe makes the word of God contradict itself, then the problem is definitely with what we believe, not the word of God. So, let's look at how the word is used and what the Bible writers concept of forever was:

Genesis 43:9
I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

Genesis 44:32
For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.

This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to mans sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as until it is done.

Exodus 12:14
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17
And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:24
And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Here Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover. The key in this verse is the part that says by an ordinance. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross and there arent any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that forever does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.

Let's get some more examples..
Exodus 19:9
And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

The question here is, how can the people 'believe thee for ever' if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get resurrected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything their thoughts are nil. The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day and fire from at night, was no longer seen after Moses death. So, again, for ever does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.

And more..
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 27:21
In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.

Exodus 28:43
And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. Again, we find the meaning of for ever to mean until it is done.

My point in referencing "for ever" was not to define whether it was "until it is done" vs "without end". It was to mention that in Scriptures use of such things, it SOUNDS as though time is involved in the question. That is, the "plain" ('surface') reader will take it to mean that there is a time-sequence of events in the afterlife.

 

[Josheb]

That is, the "plain" ('surface') reader will take it to mean that there is a time-sequence of events in the afterlife.

Do you think there is no "time-sequence" in the afterlife?