Annihilation of the reprobate.

[makesends]

I think Gods Word is clear that only the Saints will be given and have eternal life, not the Wicked. The wicked will perish forever even though God has the power to resurrect, but at the end the wicked will be separated from Him and cease to exist as punishment, and sin will be no more. Now lets take a look and see if it is a eternal torment of sinners that happen with fires there are never quenched, and God and the saints watch them linger on. But then do the wicked get to live forever too, with the Devil in charge with his minions tormenting the sinners in a underworld, does it mean that the fire doesn't consume. Lets see what the scripture says.

The Devil from the beginning has tried to present God as a liar, who does not tell man the truth about sin, which Satan is the father of. Let start with Gen 2:15-17..
Genesis 2:15-17
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Who was telling the truth, God, or the serpent (Satan)?

Deuteronomy 32:1-4
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

And Christ is even clearer...

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So where are those people who are “dead”, we have those saints who died and are in the grave, and we have the wicked who went to the grave without Christ? Have they gone to heaven and hell, the answer is simple, when they die, both will end up in the same place. The saints await the resurrection and the life (eternal life) that Christ will give them when He comes. The wicked dead await their punishment the wicked alive, or those without Christ are simply the walking dead. If they will not choose Christ in this life, they will die the second death, which is final. Those of course who have never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged according their response to the Holy Spirit as God is merciful and judges all.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How could God who says that He is love, then burn billions of people in hell for all eternity, is that the God we serve? To the contrary, there is far greater scriptural evidence that they perish, cease to exist and sin and the devil are no more, than for those who believe in eternal torment.

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es.--intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.
Job 4:20
They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

Job 20:7
Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:1-3
1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Psalm 73:27
For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Psalm 112:10
The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isaiah 41:11-12
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Then we see those who will not perish but have the life that is eternal..

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The fate of the wicked is they will perish, be burned up, suffer the fate of Sodom and Gomorrha..

2 Peter 3:9-12
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. It is one thing to disagree with a doctrine that scripture teaches, it is another to take up false doctrines that elevate Satan to the one in charge and leave the wicked to continue forever with him or maybe be 'purified' by him as some believe then go to heaven. The saints await the resurrection and the life which Christ promised, the wicked will perish and be separated from Christ and be no more.

You seem to think that those of us who believe in torment of the reprobate for 'infinity future' also believe that Satan is in charge of them in some way. Some do, no doubt, but I don't personally know anybody who believes that. So that remonstrance is a red herring.

As for the things you quote as though they necessarily mean a cessation of existence, they only 'can be' taken that way. It is what I would call, a surface reading of them. The use is not logically necessary.

As for the things you cite to show that the reprobate have no substantial constitution in the afterlife, you are right that they do not, but you are wrong if you think that their 'infinite' torment is taken by those who reject annihilationism to imply that the reprobate are forever after judgement of any equal substance with the redeemed. That may or may not generally represent those who reject annihilationsim. I certainly do not consider them substantial.

Nor do I consider them to experience an infinite time (as humanity means by it) of torment, but only an infinite intensity of torment --at least, so I tend to think. I must admit (happily) that that is a little too facile a way to put what happens to them. Regardless, that is not nearly what proponents of Annihilationism generally mean by Annihilation of the Reprobate. Therefore, I reject Annihilationism as you claim the Bible shows here.

 

[makesends]

Do you think there is no "time-sequence" in the afterlife?

I'm pretty sure that whatever we consider to be 'time', in this temporal frame, will not be the way of things after this life. The temporal frame will be replaced, or better, 'swallowed up', in God's economy. There is an awful lot we do not know, and cannot now understand.

 

[Hobie]

You seem to think that those of us who believe in torment of the reprobate for 'infinity future' also believe that Satan is in charge of them in some way. Some do, no doubt, but I don't personally know anybody who believes that. So that remonstrance is a red herring.

As for the things you quote as though they necessarily mean a cessation of existence, they only 'can be' taken that way. It is what I would call, a surface reading of them. The use is not logically necessary.

As for the things you cite to show that the reprobate have no substantial constitution in the afterlife, you are right that they do not, but you are wrong if you think that their 'infinite' torment is taken by those who reject annihilationism to imply that the reprobate are forever after judgement of any equal substance with the redeemed. That may or may not generally represent those who reject annihilationsim. I certainly do not consider them substantial.

Nor do I consider them to experience an infinite time (as humanity means by it) of torment, but only an infinite intensity of torment --at least, so I tend to think. I must admit (happily) that that is a little too facile a way to put what happens to them. Regardless, that is not nearly what proponents of Annihilationism generally mean by Annihilation of the Reprobate. Therefore, I reject Annihilationism as you claim the Bible shows here.

Yes, my brother, much error has come in and its hard to understand some of the deep things of God, and thats why we have to look to see where some of these ideas, (i.e. Satan in charge, eternal life for the wicked, man is immortal, etc..) come from (Greek Philosophers and Mythology) and have confused many. As we read our Bibles and allow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it will lead us into greater understanding of Gods truth, not what man or ideas of man take us. That is what we all should desire and I think God is pleased as we study and learn what He gives us.

 

[makesends]

Yes, my brother, much error has come in and its hard to understand some of the deep things of God, and thats why we have to look to see where some of these ideas, (i.e. Satan in charge, eternal life for the wicked, man is immortal, etc..) come from (Greek Philosophers and Mythology) and have confused many. As we read our Bibles and allow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it will lead us into greater understanding of Gods truth, not what man or ideas of man take us. That is what we all should desire and I think God is pleased as we study and learn what He gives us.

Such error as is/was posited by Greek Philosophers and Mythology is not a valid reason to posit Annihilationism. Greek Philosophy and Mythology is not the basis for why I think what I do. My OP asks for descriptions of what is meant by Annihilation [of the reprobate], what Scriptures are brought to bear on it, and the reasoning behind holding that position. If your reasoning for believing in the Annihilation of the Reprobate is because there is an opposing view of it based on error, then you have proved nothing to me. My view on the afterlife of the reprobate opposes it too. Whether it is true that there is such error and from such sources, it is a red herring, as far as I'm concerned.

It's a little like saying that you don't believe Jesus was a real person because Christmas Trees are of a superstitious pagan origin.

 

[Josheb]

I'm pretty sure that whatever we consider to be 'time', in this temporal frame, will not be the way of things after this life.

That is not an answer to the question asked.

Do you think there is no "time-sequence" in the afterlife?

Things being different would affirm the existence of "time-sequence," not deny it.

The temporal frame will be replaced, or better, 'swallowed up', in God's economy.

Scripture states death will be "swallowed up" (1 Cor. 15:54), not time-sequence. If that is the intended reference then it's an odd choice because that same chapter reports events occurring after death is swallowed up, thereby indicating a time-sequence in the afterlife . There are other similar passages in the NT.

There is an awful lot we do not know, and cannot now understand.

There is a lot we do know and do understand, and the answer to the question asked is known. Is there time-sequence in the afterlife, or not?

 

[Hobie]

Such error as is/was posited by Greek Philosophers and Mythology is not a valid reason to posit Annihilationism. Greek Philosophy and Mythology is not the basis for why I think what I do. My OP asks for descriptions of what is meant by Annihilation [of the reprobate], what Scriptures are brought to bear on it, and the reasoning behind holding that position. If your reasoning for believing in the Annihilation of the Reprobate is because there is an opposing view of it based on error, then you have proved nothing to me. My view on the afterlife of the reprobate opposes it too. Whether it is true that there is such error and from such sources, it is a red herring, as far as I'm concerned.

It's a little like saying that you don't believe Jesus was a real person because Christmas Trees are of a superstitious pagan origin.

They arent the ones saying annihilation, we find it in Gods Word, take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Its clear what it says, the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more. We also find what will happen to the being created by God who brought sin into the world..

Ezekiel 28 King James Version (KJV)

"11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Such error as is/was posited by Greek Philosophers and Mythology is not a valid reason to posit Annihilationism.

They arent the ones saying annihilation, we find it in Gods Word, take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Its clear what it says, the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more. We also find what will happen to the being created by God who brought sin into the world..

Ezekiel 28 King James Version (KJV)

"11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

So it is a red herring to mention the errors resulting of those philosophers and mythologies. Thank you.

Now, as to your references from the Bible, each should be taken one at a time, and you have posted too many for me to deal with in one or two posts. Further, you have, (for the most part), posted them without any explanation as to how they support your position on annihilation.

All you said here, was, "Its clear what it says, the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more. We also find what will happen to the being created by God who brought sin into the world.." Once again you fail to show how what happens to Satan is relevant to what happens to the reprobate. What has that to do with your stance on annihilation of the reprobate? "Be[ing] consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be[ing] no more".

I disagree with you that it is clear that "the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more" means what you take it to mean. All you have done is say it is so. Is it just the simplest thing to come to mind if you ignore the rest of Scripture? Have you made use of the usual (and the special) instruments of interpretation --eg, bearing in mind that prophecy is often hyperbole, symbolism, poetry etc-- and ignored the purpose of the prophecy, and the force of the passages? Have you paralleled these with others referring to similar situations and even the same situations from a different POV or with further revelation on the matter? For eg, why does he call the King of Tyre, "...full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." What makes you think that this is talking about the final destiny of the reprobate?

Since you answered with a general, "Its clear what it says...", I will answer with a general, "Almost all, if not all, your quotes were from poetry or prophecy. It is not clear.", and add to it a repeated, "What makes you think all these are about the final destiny of the reprobate?"

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Found this informative.

5. What are the principal terms, literal and figurative, which are applied in Scripture to the future condition of the reprobate?
As a place, it is sometimes literally designated by ἄιδης, Hades, and sometimes by γεέννα, both translated hell.—Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; Luke 16:23. Also by the phrase, “place of torment.”—Luke 16:28. As a condition of suffering, it is literally designated by the phrases, “wrath of God,” Rom. 2:5, and “second death,” Rev. 21:8.

Figurative terms.—Everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.—Matt. 25:41. The hell of fire, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.—Mark 9:44. The lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.—Rev. 21:8. Bottomless pit.—Rev. 9:2. The dreadful nature of this abode of the wicked is implied in such expressions as “outer darkness,” the place “where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth,” Matt. 8:12; “I am tormented in this flame,” Luke 16:24; “unquenchable fire,” Luke 3:17; “furnace of fire,” Matt. 13:42; “blackness of darkness,” Jude 13; “torment in fire and brimstone,” Rev. 14:10; “the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night,” Rev. 14:11.—Kitto’s “Bib. Ency.”

6. What do the Scriptures teach as to the nature of future punishments?
The terms used in Scripture to describe these sufferings are evidently figurative, yet they certainly establish the following points. These sufferings will consist—1st. In the loss of all good, whether natural, as granted through Adam, or gracious, as offered through Christ. 2d. In all the natural consequences of unrestrained sin, judicial abandonment, utter alienation from God, and the awful society of lost men and devils.—2 Thess. 1:9. 3d. In the positive infliction of torment, God’s wrath and curse descending upon both the moral and physical nature of its objects. The Scriptures also establish the fact that these sufferings must be—1st. Inconceivably dreadful in degree. 2d. Endless in duration. 3d. Various in degree, proportionately to the deserts of the subject.—Matt. 10:15; Luke 12:48.

7. What is the usage of the words, ἀιών, and ἀιώνιος, eternal, in the New Testament, and the argument thence derived establishing the endless duration of future punishment?
1st. The Greek language possesses no more emphatic terms with which to express the idea of endless duration than these. 2d. Although they are sometimes employed in the New Testament to designate limited duration, yet, in the vast majority of instances, they evidently designate unlimited duration. 3d. They are used to express the endless duration of God. (1.) ἀιών is thus used, 1 Tim. 1:17, and as applied to Christ, Rev. 1:18. (2.) ἀιώνιος is thus used, Rom. 16:26, and as applied to the Holy Ghost.—Heb. 9:14. 4th. They are used to express the endless duration of the future happiness of the saints. (1.) ἀιών is thus used.—John 6:57, 58; 2 Cor. 9:9. (2.) ἀιώνιος is thus used.—Matt. 19:29; Mark 10:30; John 3:15; Rom. 2:7. 5th. In Matt. 25:46, the very same word is used in a single clause to define at once the duration of the future happiness of the saints, and the misery of the lost. Thus the Scriptures do expressly declare that the duration of the future misery of the lost is to be in precisely the same sense unending, as is either the life of God, or the blessedness of the saints. See the learned, independent, and conclusive critical examination of the New Testament usage of these words by the late Prof. Moses Stuart, “Stuart’s Essays on Future Punishment,” published Presby. Board of Publication.

8. What evidence for the truth on this subject is furnished by, the New Testament usage of the word ἀιδιος?
This word, formed from ἀεί, always, forever, signifies, in classical Greek, eternal. It occurs only twice in the New Testament, Rom. 1:20, “even his eternal power and Godhead,” and Jude 6, “Angels reserved in everlasting chains.” But lost men share the fate of lost angels.—Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:10. Thus the same word expresses the duration of the Godhead and of the sufferings of the lost.

9. What other evidence do the Scriptures furnish on this subject?
1st. There is nothing in the Scriptures which, even by the most remote implication, suggests that the sufferings of the lost shall ever end.
2d. The constant application to the subject of such figurative language as, “fire that shall not be quenched,” “fire unquenchable,” “the worm that never dies,” “bottomless pit,” the necessity of paying the “uttermost farthing,” “the smoke of their torment arising forever and ever;” Luke 3:17; Mark 9:45, 46; Rev. 14:10, 11, is consistent only with the conviction that God wills us to believe on his authority that future punishments are literally endless. It is said of those who commit the unpardonable sin that they shall never be forgiven, “neither in this world nor in that which is to come.”—Matt. 12:32.

It is argued that this language is figurative, and the dictum is quoted “Theologia symbolica non est demonstrative.” This is true. But of what are these the figures? What does God intend to signify by such symbols? They may unquestionably be pulled to pieces severally, and their meaning brought into doubt in detail. But it must be remembered—(1.) That this language is characteristic of all God’s revelations to us of the future of those who die impenitent. Such descriptions color uniformly the whole presentation. (2.) The Bible was intended for popular instruction. Hence the obvious meaning must have been the one intended to be conveyed, and hence the one to which the divine veracity is pledged. This is especially a weighty consideration in the case of this doctrine, because—(a.) It is a practical one of personal concernment. (b.) The language occurs frequently, and strikes the eye of every reader. (c.) The entire historical church (with only individual exceptions) have, as a matter of fact, interpreted it in the sense of endless suffering. And this in spite of the constant and tremendous pressure of human desires toward the opposite conclusion.

10. What presumption on this subject is afforded by reason and experience?
The Scriptures teach us—(1.) That man is dead in sin and morally impotent. (2.) That repentance and faith are wrought in the soul by the Holy Ghost. Experience teaches us that repentance and faith are as duties exceedingly difficult under the most favorable conditions. Reason and experience unite in teaching us that they become more difficult and unusual the longer a person lives and the more definitely his moral character and habits are fixed.

1st. The most favorable possible conditions are afforded in this life. Youth, immature character, the word and the Spirit, and the providence of God and the Christian Church. Su pernatural demonstrations and purgatorial sufferings would have no equal moral effect. “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.”—Luke 16:31.
2d. The law of habit and fixed moral character leads to the conclusion, that the hope of a favorable change must rapidly decrease in proportion as it is delayed.

11. What two views on this subject have been held by different parties in opposition to the faith of the whole Christian Church, and the clear teaching of Gods word?
I. That of the total extinction of the being of the finally reprobate, as the sentence of the “second death,” after the last Judgment. This doctrine is styled popularly “The Annihilation of the Wicked,” and by its advocates “Conditional Immortality.” It has been advocated ably in “Debt and Grace as related to the Doctrine of a Future Life,” by C. F. Hudson, and in “The Duration and Nature of Future Punishment,” by Henry Constable, and “View of Scripture Revelation concerning a Future State,” by Archb. Whately, and in “Life in Christ,” by Edward White.
They argue that the word “death” means always “cessation of being,” and “eternal destruction” means always the “putting out of existence.”

We answer—(1.) They fail utterly in their attempt to show that the words and phrases cited ever have, and much more that they always have, the sense contended for. (2.) Their, doctrine is in plain contradiction of the uniform representation of Scripture as to the ultimate state of the finally impenitent as illustrated above, Ques. 9. (3.) Their doctrine is in contradiction of the natural and universal instinct of immortality witnessed to by the religions and literatures of all nations, whether heathen, Jewish, or Christian.



Archibald Alexander Hodge, Outlines of Theology: Rewritten and Enlarged (New York: Hodder & Stoughton, 1878), 580–584.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
I'm pretty sure that whatever we consider to be 'time', in this temporal frame, will not be the way of things after this life.

That is not an answer to the question asked.

Your Honor, I swore to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If I answer the question as the defense demands, whether with "yes" or "no", it will not be the whole truth. If it please Your Honor, kindly remind the defense that their phraseology is not the only way to deal describe and arrive at the facts.

Do you think there is no "time-sequence" in the afterlife?

I don't know if there is any form of "time" there, and if there is, I don't know what form, quality or influence it will have. So, I don't know. I can only suppose, as I said when you took it for a non-answer, that if there is time there, it will not fit what we consider 'time' here. I'm not even sure the logical principle of cause-and-effect is the same sort of thing there. All I know is that it seems reasonable to me to consider cause-and-effect endemic to God's way of things, but time does not enjoy that status in my mind.

Things being different would affirm the existence of "time-sequence," not deny it.

How so? If I follow your reasoning, which doubtless you will say I do not, it, (your reasoning), should also say that God having made the reprobate fact, means that he continues to uphold it in the afterlife.

Scripture states death will be "swallowed up" (1 Cor. 15:54), not time-sequence. If that is the intended reference then it's an odd choice because that same chapter reports events occurring after death is swallowed up, thereby indicating a time-sequence in the afterlife . There are other similar passages in the NT.

There is a lot we do know and do understand, and the answer to the question asked is known. Is there time-sequence in the afterlife, or not?

Nope. I was using it as a supposition. I don't claim to know what it will be like --in fact, I think, I said that I tend to think that IF time is not done away with, that it will be swallowed up, as opposed to holding the same position there as it does here.

But now that you mention it, "swallowed up" doesn't sound the same to me as "annihilated". And no, I don't know what "...swallowed up by..." means. Do you?

 

[Hobie]

makesends said:
Such error as is/was posited by Greek Philosophers and Mythology is not a valid reason to posit Annihilationism.

So it is a red herring to mention the errors resulting of those philosophers and mythologies. Thank you.

Now, as to your references from the Bible, each should be taken one at a time, and you have posted too many for me to deal with in one or two posts. Further, you have, (for the most part), posted them without any explanation as to how they support your position on annihilation.

All you said here, was, "Its clear what it says, the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more. We also find what will happen to the being created by God who brought sin into the world.." Once again you fail to show how what happens to Satan is relevant to what happens to the reprobate. What has that to do with your stance on annihilation of the reprobate? "Be[ing] consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be[ing] no more".

I disagree with you that it is clear that "the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire, the second death, and be no more" means what you take it to mean. All you have done is say it is so. Is it just the simplest thing to come to mind if you ignore the rest of Scripture? Have you made use of the usual (and the special) instruments of interpretation --eg, bearing in mind that prophecy is often hyperbole, symbolism, poetry etc-- and ignored the purpose of the prophecy, and the force of the passages? Have you paralleled these with others referring to similar situations and even the same situations from a different POV or with further revelation on the matter? For eg, why does he call the King of Tyre, "...full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." What makes you think that this is talking about the final destiny of the reprobate?

Since you answered with a general, "Its clear what it says...", I will answer with a general, "Almost all, if not all, your quotes were from poetry or prophecy. It is not clear.", and add to it a repeated, "What makes you think all these are about the final destiny of the reprobate?"

I was talking about the devil in charge in a fire under the earth from the Greek ideas of the underworld, and the ideas of immortality. The usage of Greek caused a lot of the confusion we see today as the Greeks had different words for the grave which they called the underworld, so the problem. Where in the Hebrew text it teaches that when people die they go to Sheol, the grave, or Gehenna which is the consuming by fire of the wicked, when the grave or the eternal oblivion of the wicked was translated into Greek, the word Hades was many times used, which is a term for the realm of the dead. However, the meaning depending on context was the grave, death, or the end of the wicked in which they are ultimately destroyed in the specific way in which scripture shows at the end, which is a consuming fire which destroys them for eternity, the "The lake of fire" at the end.

So we can see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, when translated using Greek words became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with Greek word, but its original meaning was basically the grave, death or the destruction of the wicked at the end in the "lake of fire". "Hades" was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew "Sheol".

Now there is absolutely no reference in the Bible to the Wicked being granted eternal life. The only mention of eternal life in the Bible is made for the righteous saints, those who love and fear God, the justified believer. God will judge who is worthy to receive eternal life, the righteous saints, and then the saints will be raised and come up at the first resurrection at the second coming to go to heaven, and after the 1000 years the wicked will then be raised and come up in the second resurrection to meet their fate. Christ makes it clear in John 5:28-29...

"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29.

 

[Josheb]

makesends said:
I'm pretty sure that whatever we consider to be 'time', in this temporal frame, will not be the way of things after this life.

That is not the question asked.

I don't know if there is any form of "time" there....

Then say that. "I do not know," is a perfectly fine and correct answer if it is honest.

How so?

Time is simply a measure of cause and effect or....... sequence.

If I follow your reasoning, which doubtless you will say I do not...

Would you please refrain from making personal comments, making a conscious and conscientious effort to stick to the subject at hand? Thanks

, it, (your reasoning), should also say that God having made the reprobate fact, means that he continues to uphold it in the afterlife.

Would you please make a conscious and conscientious effort to let me speak for myself, and refrain from posting attempts to speak for me, put words in my posts I do not believe, or read anyone else's mind? Thanks

Nope. I was using it as a supposition.

It is a supposition that abjectly fails given the facts of scripture wherein events that occur after people are raised from the dead occur. These reports provide proof "time-sequence" does exist in the afterlife.

I don't claim to know what it will be like....

The nature of the time-sequence is not the subject of this conversation. The existence of time-sequence is. Post 39 states, "That is, the "plain" ('surface') reader will take it to mean that there is a time-sequence of events in the afterlife," but the serious, methodical, thorough, and/or analytical reader will also take the scripture's mentions of "until it is done" vs "without end" to mean there is a time-sequence in the afterlife (whether different in kind, or not, time sequence exists in the afterlife).

--in fact, I think, I said that I tend to think that IF time is not done away with, that it will be swallowed up, as opposed to holding the same position there as it does here.

God exists eternally. God exists external to creation. Creation is not eternal. Creation is, by design, by nature temporal. Creation cannot, therefore, exist absent time. Only God exists absent time or, more accurately, absent and in position of time. Whether time exists differently in heaven, whether time passes sequentially in a manner different in the afterlife is irrelevant to the specific question asked. It is a fact of scripture that time-sequence exists in the afterlife. Different in kind or not, it exists.

For time to be swallowed up creation would cease to exist.

But now that you mention it, "swallowed up" doesn't sound the same to me as "annihilated". And no, I don't know what "...swallowed up by..." means. Do you?

Why would I know what you mean when you use and/or apply that phrase?


I simply wanted to know whether or not you think there is NO time-sequence in the afterlife. Given the contents of what I have received, the answer should be, "Yes, I do think there may be a time-sequence in the afterlife, although I think it will be different than the time-sequence we experience here," and not, "No, there is not time-sequence in the afterlife."

​

makesends said:

My point in referencing "for ever" was not to define whether it was "until it is done" vs "without end". It was to mention that in Scriptures use of such things, it SOUNDS as though time is involved in the question. That is, the "plain" ('surface') reader will take it to mean that there is a time-sequence of events in the afterlife.​

The word "forever does sound like time is involved in any question, whether with the "plain," "surface" reader or the reader of more substance and depth simply because scripture describes sequences of events (time) in the afterlife. Even without those reports, however, the existence of time-sequence can be inferred from the simple fact creation has a beginning point and is ontologically temporal. The only way there could be no time-sequence in the afterlife is if afterlife ere the final event of creation.

And it is not the final event.

Here are some examples of time-sequence (stated or implied) in the afterlife aside from the aforementioned 1 Corinthians 15 text...

Matthew 17:1-3
Six days later Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And he was transfigured before them; and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him.

Luke 18:29-30
And he said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time, and in the age to come, eternal life.”

1 Corinthians 3:12-13
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment...,

Jude 1:9
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him an abusive judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Revelation 14:9-14
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 20: 4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:22-26
I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it...

Time-sequence exists in the afterlife. It may be different than it is here, but it exists. No speculation regarding the nature of its existence or any difference between here and there cannot occur absent the acknowledgment of its existence. If it does not exist, then it has no nature, no differences or similarities. We should not think the good works for which we have been saved occur solely on this side of the grave.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

​

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