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Purgatory

Carbon

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There is no historical basis for Purgatory in the Church. For at least the first two centuries, there was no mention of Purgatory in the Church.

In all the writings of the Apostolic fathers, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, there is not the slightest allusion to the idea of purgatory. Rome claims that the early Church nevertheless believed in purgatory because it prayed for the dead. This was becoming a common practice by the beginning of the third century, but it does not, in itself, prove that the early church believed in the existence of a purgatory.

The written prayers which have survived, and the evidence from the catacombs and burial inscriptions, indicate that the early Church viewed deceased Christians as residing in peace and happiness, and prayers offered were for them to have a greater experience of these. As early as Tertullian, in the late second and beginning of the third century, these prayers often use the Latin term refrigerium as a request of God on behalf of the departed Christians, a term which means "refreshment" or "to refresh" and came to embody the concept of heavenly happiness. So the fact that the early Church prayed for the dead does not support the teaching of purgatory, for the nature of the prayers themselves indicates the Church did not view the dead as residing in a place of suffering.
 
If I may....

I find arguments predicated on what early Church members (leaders or not) did or didn't due dubious. Logically, the appeal to prior practice (or thought) does not, in and of itself, prove anything, especially since 1) it took the early Church about 400 years to settle and formalize Christian doctrine, and 2) the ECFs often held very diverse points of view, some of which were clearly irrational. For example, early writings often describe hell as being "eternal," but that is incorrect if hell is a created part of creation. It can be everlasting, but not eternal. The word "eternal" means infinite in all directions (going backwards prior to creation's being created and goring forward after creation is destroyed - if such a thing does ever occur). The op is correct to date the belief hell might be rehabilitative to the third century, but not all rehabilitative viewpoints were about purgatory. Origen (circa 185 - 253), for example, would more accurately be called an apokatastasist, not an adherent to the doctrine of purgatory. In fact, Origen appears to have held a view much worse than that of purgatory. He was an early universalist. He believed because we all came from the same source, all humans would eventually return to that same source. For the RCC purgatory is a place where only the already saved go. A universalist might make an appeal to Origen and say, "See! Universalism goes all the way back to the early Church....... so it is a valid position to believe."

That's just nonsense.

What we (all Christians, whether Roman or not) should be doing is measuring doctrines by well-rendered scripture and that is where the problems with purgatory become apparent. Roman Catholicism bases the doctrine of purgatory on apocryphal writings, not scripture. It's also important to have a correct understanding of purgatory because many Protestants confuse purgatory as a means by which people avoid hell but that is not what the RCC teaches. In RCism, purgatory is a place where the saved go to be purified before entering heaven. People judged and sentenced to hell do not get to go to purgatory. Because nothing impure can enter heaven, those who've died in Christ have various degrees of impurity that need to be cleansed from the person before he or she can enter therein. It's still a wack position, but it's not to be construed as a waystation between heaven and hell. Everyone in Purgatory is going to heaven and never to hell. As Catholic Review puts it, "A person in purgatory is one who is ultimately and surely destined for heaven."

I guess that repentant thief on the cross was pure because he was told he'd be with Jesus in paradise that day! He must have been wrongly convicted, too ;).

Luke 23:39-43
39
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Oops! Not innocent. Justly convicted and sentenced. Musta been a Special Passover Dispensation, I guess :cautious:.

The purgatory doctrine is based on 2 Maccabees, which is a text rejected by Protestants. That alone is a little odd because the EO churches use the apocrypha, but they do not hold to the doctrine of purgatory. Other supporting texts used by the RCC are Matthew 5:25-26 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. An objective reading of the latter two texts readily provides proof the RC position is highly inferential and not what the text actually states.


2 Maccabees 12:39-45

On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

So the RCC doctrine is based on a specific episode in which Jews prayed for idolators. The use of this text is also problematic because it teaches idolators are godly and there is another means of atonement other than Jesus. I've often wondered why Judas didn't consider the fallen to have fallen by God's hand because they were idolatrous and God, therefore, culled them from group. If that's the case the Judas' behavior is all the more suspect. God, after all, has a long history in the OT of purging the ranks of Israel (and doing so using other idolatrous nations to do so before destroying them, too!). This is just one more example in a substantial list of ways in which the Jews mucked up and that muck up led to bad Christian doctrine.
 
I can understand you wanting to be fair with Catholicism, and that is right and commendable indeed. But you should also want to be fair to Protestantism. So there should be a few things worth mentioning.

It's clear that the Hebrew Old Testament canon used by the Jews at the time of Christ did not include the Apocrypha. This Hebrew canon was comprised of the same 39 books that exist in contemporary Protestant Bibles.
Jerome suggested separating the Apocrypha from sacred scripture, as it is good for historical reasons, but not scripture.

@Josheb said: The purgatory doctrine is based on 2 Maccabees
And we should keep in mind that Jesus and the New Testament authors "never quote from the Apocrypha," though they quote prolifically from the vast majority of the rest of the Old Testament.

Even the historian Josephus tells us the Hebrew canon did not include the Apocrypha.

So again: There is no historical basis for Purgatory in the Church. Added - "Or biblical."
 
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I can understand you wanting to be fair with Catholicism, and that is right and commendable indeed. But you should also want to be fair to Protestantism.
Hmmm... was I unfair to Protestantism? Did I not correctly state 2 Maccabees is rejected by Prots (among whom I am one)? Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear.
So there should be a few things worth mentioning.
{ Edit: Off topic argumentative personal comment}
It's clear that the Hebrew Old Testament canon used by the Jews at the time of Christ did not include the Apocrypha. This Hebrew canon was comprised of the same 39 books that exist in contemporary Protestant Bibles. Jerome suggested separating the Apocrypha from sacred scripture, as it is good for historical reasons, but not scripture. And we should keep in mind that Jesus and the New Testament authors "never quote from the Apocrypha," though they quote prolifically from the vast majority of the rest of the Old Testament. Even the historian Josephus tells us the Hebrew canon did not include the Apocrypha.
Yep, and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise. However, we do not need appeals to extra-biblical sources to know and understand the Apocrypha is not scripture and should be treated accordingly. The reason the Apocrypha is rejected is because it does not reconcile with the whole of scripture. Even the RCC acknowledges problems exist in this regard. That's why the Apocrypha is the Apocrypha. The RCC calls it "deuterocanon," or "second canon.' The term is oxymoronic.

In the particular case of 2 Mac, I pointed out numerous examples where the text doesn't reconcile with whole scripture:

  • idolators dead in their idolatry (and not Christ) being saved 🤮
  • countenancing atonement and redemptiont on the Law 🤮
  • paying tribute (hints of indulgences) for the remission of sin 🤮
  • a sinner (Judas) making atonement for sinners 🤮
  • two-pronged atonement 🤮

What scripture teaches is those dying dead in sin go directly to hell, not purgatory or heaven. Atonement and redemption cannot be purchased with money and Christ, not the Law of Moses is the measure. The Law testifies to and about Christ, not money as the means of overcoming the placing of one's life and death (and any eternal aspirations) on an idol hidden in one's clothing. It's not possible for one man to atone for another if both men are sinners (and all have sinned and thereby fallen short of God's glory - even the Maccabean Judas). There is only one means of atonement and redemption: the shed blood of Christ, not works performed by another on someone else's behalf and definitely not based on works performed on the other side of the grave. These are the Protestant positions. They are the Prot positions because they are what scripture teaches.

I hope this clarifies any perception of unfairness.
 
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Hmmm... was I unfair to Protestantism? Did I not correctly state 2 Maccabees is rejected by Prots (among whom I am one)? Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear.
Yes, I suppose we could always be a bit clearer.
How about simply framing that as a clarification rather than an insinuation Protestantism was treated unfairly?
Why do you seem to take all things to heart? This isn't about you, it's about Purgatory. Remember, we are all human, and not all of us humans mean things in a mean way.
Yep, and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise. However, we do not need appeals to extra-biblical sources to know and understand the Apocrypha is not scripture and should be treated accordingly. The reason the Apocrypha is rejected is because it does not reconcile with the whole of scripture. Even the RCC acknowledges problems exist in this regard. That's why the Apocrypha is the Apocrypha. The RCC calls it "deuterocanon," or "second canon.' The term is oxymoronic.
(y)
In the particular case of 2 Mac, I pointed out numerous examples where the text doesn't reconcile with whole scripture:

  • idolators dead in their idolatry (and not Christ) being saved 🤮
  • countenancing atonement and redemptiont on the Law 🤮
  • paying tribute (hints of indulgences) for the remission of sin 🤮
  • a sinner (Judas) making atonement for sinners 🤮
  • two-pronged atonement 🤮

What scripture teaches is those dying dead in sin go directly to hell, not purgatory or heaven. Atonement and redemption cannot be purchased with money and Christ, not the Law of Moses is the measure. The Law testifies to and about Christ, not money as the means of overcoming the placing of one's life and death (and any eternal aspirations) on an idol hidden in one's clothing. It's not possible for one man to atone for another if both men are sinners (and all have sinned and thereby fallen short of God's glory - even the Maccabean Judas). There is only one means of atonement and redemption: the shed blood of Christ, not works performed by another on someone else's behalf and definitely not based on works performed on the other side of the grave. These are the Protestant positions. They are the Prot positions because they are what scripture teaches.
(y)
I hope this clarifies any perception of unfairness.
Sure.
 
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The RCC position on purgatory is indeed a waystation on the way to heaven for the saved but not saved, but it is still a place of suffering.


Rome’s official doctrine of purgatory at the time of Luther:

  • A real, purifying state for saved souls.
  • Necessary because temporal punishment remains after guilt is forgiven.
  • Painful purification (often described as fire).
  • The living can shorten this purification through prayers, Masses, alms, and indulgences.
  • Indulgences were official—not the abusive sales tactics.
  • Fully dogmatized at Trent after Luther’s protests.
 
The RCC position on purgatory is indeed a waystation on the way to heaven for the saved but not saved, but it is still a place of suffering.


Rome’s official doctrine of purgatory at the time of Luther:

  • A real, purifying state for saved souls.
  • Necessary because temporal punishment remains after guilt is forgiven.
  • Painful purification (often described as fire).
  • The living can shorten this purification through prayers, Masses, alms, and indulgences.
  • Indulgences were official—not the abusive sales tactics.
  • Fully dogmatized at Trent after Luther’s protests.
Since Rome denies Pauline Justification, and insists that we must co operate with God to get ""right enough" to actually mert our salvation, this is the logical end point for their theology
 
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