All ISRAEL will be saved

[Odë:hgöd]

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Re: All ISRAEL will be saved

I think we can be reasonably confident from passages like Ezek 20:33-38 & Matt
8:11-12 that a number of Jews will fail to make the cut.

Personally I kinda suspect that "all Israel" pertains to Jacob's tribes rather than his
individuals. In other words Jews from each of the twelve tribes will be taken while
those not taken will be sent away.
_

 

[Eleanor]

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Re: All ISRAEL will be saved

I think we can be reasonably confident from passages like Ezek 20:33-38 & Matt
8:11-12 that a number of Jews will fail to make the cut.

Personally I kinda suspect that "all Israel" pertains to Jacob's tribes rather than his
individuals. In other words Jews from each of the twelve tribes will be taken while
those not taken will be sent away.
_

Not all Israel is Israel. . .all true Israel will be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

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Re: All ISRAEL will be saved

I think we can be reasonably confident from passages like Ezek 20:33-38 & Matt
8:11-12 that a number of Jews will fail to make the cut.

Personally I kinda suspect that "all Israel" pertains to Jacob's tribes rather than his
individuals. In other words Jews from each of the twelve tribes will be taken while
those not taken will be sent away.
_

All Israel shall be saved is the body of Christ, Abrahams Spiritual Seed that belongs to Christ whether jew or Gentile Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed[Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

All Israel shall be saved is the body of Christ, Abrahams Spiritual Seed that belongs to Christ
whether jew or Gentile Gal 3:28-29

Please don't be offended if this is a stupid question; but have you ever taken the
time to read the 11th chapter of Romans word for word and paid careful attention
to its grammar and the application of its various parts of speech like nouns,
pronouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives, prepositions, conjunction, etc?

I ask because your posit appears to me a hasty conclusion drawn from skimming
instead of studying.
_

 

[brightfame52]

Please don't be offended if this is a stupid question; but have you ever taken the
time to read the 11th chapter of Romans word for word and paid careful attention
to its grammar and the application of its various parts of speech like nouns,
pronouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives, prepositions, conjunction, etc?

I ask because your posit appears to me a hasty conclusion drawn from skimming
instead of studying.
_

YesI have read Rom 11 over the past 40 yrs numerous times

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There are at least three interpretations.

1. The word "all" could be a hyperbole.
2. The phrase "all Israel" means all Jews who are alive at some point in the future will be saved.
3. The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.

Romans 11:


God had not rejected all the Israelites. The Israelites were the original olive tree that God had planted and cultivated. Some branches were broken off due to their rejecting God.


There was a remnant of Israelites remaining in the olive tree. They had not been broken off.


Gentiles were branches cut from a wild olive tree.


God grafted the wild olive tree branches into his cultivated original olive tree.


In the future, the broken Jewish branches will be grafted back in.


All Israel includes

1. the remnant branch that was never broken off,
2. the Gentile branches that were grafted in, and
3. the broken-off Jewish branches that will be grafted back in.

"All Israel" means all the believers of the LORD who are living branches of God's cultivated olive tree. The root nourishes and supports them (v. 17).

Lets look at it a different way

Who is "THEY" in the passage? (as apposed to who is "YOU"

1. They are "his people" whome paul is one of. an isrealite (vs 1)
2. THEY are a remnant of people who have not departed in unbelief (vs 5) which is part of the election (there is no need to keep a remnant of people unless God is keeping something and refusing to let it die like a nation)
3. They have stumbled. They have been hardened, they have been blinded (vs 8 - 10 and vs 25)

by definition hence, THEY includes the saved Israel and the not saved Israel. or in other words ALL ISRAEL so when you see the word THEY, You include not only the remnant of saved Israel. but the lost Jews who do not or have not yet believed

we are also told about they

1. THEY (All Israel) are natural branches (as apposed to WE who are unnatural branches)
2. They (The nation of Israel) was cut off, while we (Saved gentiles) are grafted in

in other words, it is not individuals in context. it is two groups of people. Israel as a nation (natural branches) and gentiles as a group (unnatural branches)

we are told the following

1. God used their blindness and their unbelief there stumbling to bring salvation to the gentiles (Vs 11)
2. God used this to bring riches to the gentiles (they had the priesthood, the temple. the oracles of God and were to keep charge, the word of God came through them, now it is given the the gentile church. of which we are a part) (vs 12)
3. God will use God giving everything to the gentiles. to provoke jealousy in then so they may be saved. and that our riches may cause them (the nation of Israel) to be given life from the dead (vs 14 - 15)

we are finally given a warning, and a promise

1. We should not be ignorant of the mystery and consider ourse3lves wise in our own opinion (vs 25)
2. The mystery is blindness in part has happened to them (israel) until the fullness of the gentiles will come in (vs 25)

They (all israel) will all be saved at a point of time, when they repent and come to Jesus

we are even told when this will happen.

when the time of the gentiles has been completed

finally we are told this about them

THEY are enemies of the gospel (as a nation, they deny the gospel. they have been cut off)

but THEY are beloved because of the promises. the gift and promises of God are irrevocable.

so in closing

1. All Israel is Israel - both saved and unsaved as a group or a nation
2. We are gentiles or non Israel. who are natural branches and given the riches which belonged to Israel when they fell and were cut off as a nation
3. We are not to boast or think we are wise (we made it and they did not)
4. There will come a period of time when the deliverer will return, he will come to mt zion. and all Israel will repent and be saved

 

[Josheb]

(Rom. 9:6-7) "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Rom. 9:8-9) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."

Paul established at the beginning of (Rom. 9) that he is talking about Israelites. His brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh. (Rom. 9:3) Thus within Israel, you have those who are 'children of the flesh'. They are born of Abraham and of the tribes of Israel, but they are not true Israel. Why? Because 'in Isaac' is the true seed called. The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise.

And one day, all of Israel will be the true Israel of God. All will be children of promise. Which will occur when the blindness of Israel is lifted. (Rom. 11:25-26) "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved...."

Lees

It is that part about the promise that is critically important. The implication is that the child of promise is the one through whom God's promises would be fulfilled or realized, not any child of bloodline. More importantly, Paul is appealing to Abraham and Isaac (and by extensions Isaac's progeny, Jacob = the first person called "Israel") before Jews ever existed, before a geo-political nation-stated named after God's covenant name for Jacob ever existed. Paul is saying the identity of "true" Israel (as you call it) lays in the promises made hundreds of years before bloodline Israel, bloodline kinsmen of Paul, ever existed.

I gave plenty of Scripture supporting my view.

The posts prove otherwise.

What was posted are six verses from the same book of the Bible. That is not "plenty." At best it is a small sampling of scripture. At worst it may prove to be an eisegetic quote mine . Plenty of scripture was used in this thread HERE. Give my posts (plural) there a read. There relevant scripture is sampled from the beginning to the end of the Bible and rarely is a single verse removed from its surrounding text or its stated context(s) ignored.

I gave plenty of Scripture supporting my view.

It is not clear from the posts what, exactly, is your view.

.....So...who is deceived?

Lees

.......Then ask yourself, who is deceived?

Lees

I gave Scripture, and you simply come back and say 'you are deceived'.

No, You misrepresent me.

It would be good for you to pay attention to what is said.

Can we agree it is inappropriate to post accusations and personal attacks?

What time period is Paul addressing here? Answer: (1 Kings 19:18)

According to Paul's own words he is addressing the time in which he was living. He explicitly stated there existed "at the present time," a remnant and nowhere in the entire three-chapter narrative did he ever mention the 21st century.

Romans 9:27-28
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”

That is what Paul stated near the beginning of his exposition. He then later stated...

Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The "all Israel" that is saved is not literally all Israel because not all of Israel is Israel. What will be saved is the children of promise (which Paul further defines as those upon whom God has mercy and those who live by faith), and those people are only a remnant of Israel, a remnant living at the present time. Paul's present time, not Justin Martyr's present time, not Augustine's present time, not Calvin's or Arminius' present time, nor Darby's or Spurgeon's present time. Not our present time. The only ones in the "all Israel" Paul explicitly states will be saved are those among the remnant living at the present time when he wrote that epistle. No other people and no other time are mentioned.

 

[Carbon]

There are at least three interpretations.
3. The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.

Yes, all the elect from every tribe tongue, and nation.

 

[Carbon]

So...who is deceived?

Umm, you are.

 

[Carbon]

Not all Israel is Israel. . .all true Israel will be saved.

Amen.

 

[Carbon]

Scripture teaches, Christ was in the covenant of grace, Israel representative according to Isaiah 49:3
“And He said to me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.’
Now, Israel, the collective body, is the elect. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Romans 9:6.
So it was the elect, which was the party represented and contracted for in the covenant. Those whom Christ represented, are described to be the seed of Abraham, For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:16.

Notice scripture does not say he took on him the seed of Adam, (all mankind), but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[Carbon]

I'm going with this one.

The phrase "all Israel" means all Jews who are alive at some point in the future will be saved.

@CrowCross

I'm curious about something.
I know you're a dispensationalist, which is the reason for your choice above. But I am curious about how this fits in with you being a Calvinist.

Knowing that God chose from before the foundation of the world the elect. Which are all those whom Christ did atone for.

How does your choice work with all this? I don't see it harmonizing. If you do not agree, all Israel means "spiritual Israel," or "the elect," but natural Israel. Is it just speaking about a time, near the end of the age, that some Jews will be saved? If so, how does that fit in with scripture? This does point to God having a plan for the Church and a plan for the Jews (which I disagree with).

This would imply an open atonement, yet only the elect will be saved.

This just does not work.

 

[Carbon]

But Calvin sounds like he includes the physical remnant of Jews into that Israel, as though it is not complete until all Jews are included.

I haven't read anything from Calvin on this, but knowing Calvin's theology, and if I understand what you're saying, I have to disagree with you.

If you would point me to what your refering to by Calvin, Ill surely take a look.

 

[Carbon]

That's either non-committal, or you didn't get what I said, (or I don't get what you said). Is Calvin not claiming that the remaining living Jews, will be saved in the end (added back in, grafted back in) ?

No, I do not think Calvin would be saying that.
But I could be wrong, please, point me to his writings on it.

I'm not talking about the inclusion of Jews with Gentiles. I'm asking if Calvin thought that at some point, those Jews remaining alive would be all grafted back in. That's what it sounds like he's saying.

And I don't see that in scripture, though I have been told that is what it is talking about in the passage.

Again, I doubt that.

 

[Carbon]

Prove that statement with scripture.

Do you hear crickets?

 

[Josheb]

Do you hear crickets?

I think the crickets left a while ago. It was probably easy for them with so many holes in the synergist "case" through which escape is possible.

 

[makesends]

No, I do not think Calvin would be saying that.
But I could be wrong, please, point me to his writings on it.


Again, I doubt that.

Lol, sorry. It's been too long. Statute of limitations has kicked in... I haven't got time to defend my points today, nevermind back then...