Adam and Eve vs. the Theory of Evolution

[Frank Robert]

This last is a very odd statement. All of those articles are both facts presented and conclusions or observations rendered. It doesn't matter whether it is "apologetics."

For ex., there is only one way to have opisthotonics take place. That is the feature of many dinosaur bone piles where things are smashed, crushed, piled, bent over impossible on each other: major slurry movement and force! This is a fact beyond any individual instance. It is worldwide. To refuse this is to impose a view on things; the refusal has nothing to do with evidence. It is just as possible for gradualists to do "apologetics" for gradualism--provided they actually have facts. But that would ruin the word, because the writers are defending the whole narrative laid out in Genesis, not just one bit piece. Gradualism that pushed its tenants instead of agreed-to facts like opisthotonics would be propaganda, not apologetics.

You are behind the times.

Opisthotonic death pose - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2012, paleontologists Achim G. Reisdorf and Michael Wuttke published a study regarding death poses. According to the conclusions of this study, the so-called "opisthotonic posture" is not the result of a cerebral illness creating muscle spasms, and also not of a rapid burial. Rather, peri-mortem submersion resulted in buoyancy that enabled the Ligamentum elasticum to pull the head and tail back.​

 

[Frank Robert]

Do you think Jesus and Peter were ignorant?

Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

You think the majority of "Christians" believe Jesus was in error and that the flood did not occur?

Heb_11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
1Pe_3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
2Pe_2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Of course Jesus and Peter would use the OT stories as models for moral lessons that the Jewish people would understand.

Is a literal belief in the OT a condition of salvation? I believe that the OT was inspired by God but inspired is not synonymous with literal.

 

[Manfred]

Of course Jesus and Peter would use the OT stories as models for moral lessons that the Jewish people would understand.

Is a literal belief in the OT a condition of salvation? I believe that the OT was inspired by God but inspired is not synonymous with literal.

A belief in Jesus Christ and that He was not full of fables would be a good start for you

 

[CrowCross]

Then you also doubt that the 51% of Christians that are Catholics and at least half of the 37% that are Protestants are not saved either.

I would say that might be an accurate number pertaining to "christians" who think they're saved.
The catholic religion is pretty much false as they move way beyond John 3:16 concerning salvation. The Protestant church is also being deceived in many ways....some will even fly a rainbow flag. And their rainbow flag isn't to support the promise from God not to flood the earth again. But then again the world wide flood never happened like the bible said.

You have groups such as Biologos that are spreading lies challenging much of what the bible says. The last time I was at their site they couldn't explain the fall and our sin nature.

Now this I find ironic. These "christians" you mention seem to defy science and claim a dead guy can be killed on a cross and rise from the grave after 3 days...and be seen walking around and talking to people...BUT...claim this same God-man Jesus didn't have the ability to create the world and man in the way in which the book of Genesis proclaims.

These people, YOU included deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world of that time perished in the flood.

 

[Frank Robert]

A belief in Jesus Christ and that He was not full of fables would be a good start for you

That is way out of line even for you.

 

[CrowCross]

Of course Jesus and Peter would use the OT stories as models for moral lessons that the Jewish people would understand.

Is a literal belief in the OT a condition of salvation? I believe that the OT was inspired by God but inspired is not synonymous with literal.

But you don't believe Jesus in the NT when He speaks of Noah and a flood....It was all, how did you put it...“hyperbole” ???

 

[Frank Robert]

I would say that might be an accurate number pertaining to "christians" who think they're saved.
The catholic religion is pretty much false as they move way beyond John 3:16 concerning salvation. The Protestant church is also being deceived in many ways....some will even fly a rainbow flag. And their rainbow flag isn't to support the promise from God not to flood the earth again. But then again the world wide flood never happened like the bible said.

That is your opinion. Doesn't Jesus say something about judging others?

You have groups such as Biologos that are spreading lies challenging much of what the bible says. The last time I was at their site they couldn't explain the fall and our sin nature.

Now this I find ironic. These "christians" you mention seem to defy science and claim a dead guy can be killed on a cross and rise from the grave after 3 days...and be seen walking around and talking to people...BUT...claim this same God-man Jesus didn't have the ability to create the world and man in the way in which the book of Genesis proclaims.

These people, YOU included deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world of that time perished in the flood.

See my comment above.

 

[CrowCross]

That is your opinion. Doesn't Jesus say something about judging others?

Yup. Jesus said...."for each tree is known by its own fruit." Jesus also said..."So then, by their fruit you will recognize them." What's your point?

 

[Frank Robert]

Yup. Jesus said...."for each tree is known by its own fruit." Jesus also said..."So then, by their fruit you will recognize them." What's your point?

You missed Matthew 7

1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.​

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.​

 

[CrowCross]

You missed Matthew 7

1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.​

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.​

I'm up for that...I'm judging your false theology. I'm judging you false theological biblical fruit when you DENY the account of Genesis....and turn it into hyperbole.

 

[Frank Robert]

I'm up for that...I'm judging your false theology. I'm judging you false theological biblical fruit when you DENY the account of Genesis....and turn it into hyperbole.

I accept that you have an opinion that my theology is false. Your argument is with Christian denominations that have a non-literal interpretation of the OT.

That I in a denomination that does not take the OT as literal does not mean we are denying the OT was inspired by God. It has zero to do with salvation.

Where does it state in the NT that you MUST believe that the OT is literal for salvation?

Salvation:

Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

What does Jesus say about salvation?

Matthew 10:32​

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.​

​

 

[Carbon]

You think it an opinion only?

Since we are not apostles, what else could it be? But I'm talking about your opinion in regards to the thread, not any particular point.

Of course, we can all trace our ancestors all the way back to Adam and Eve. I don't disagree.

 

[EarlyActs]

This last is a very odd statement. All of those articles are both facts presented and conclusions or observations rendered. It doesn't matter whether it is "apologetics."

For ex., there is only one way to have opisthotonics take place. That is the feature of many dinosaur bone piles where things are smashed, crushed, piled, bent over impossible on each other: major slurry movement and force! This is a fact beyond any individual instance. It is worldwide.

To refuse this is to impose a view on things; the refusal has nothing to do with evidence. It is just as possible for gradualists to do "apologetics" for gradualism--provided they actually have facts. But that would ruin the word, because the writers are defending the whole narrative laid out in Genesis, not just one bit piece. Gradualism that pushed its tenants instead of agreed-to facts like opisthotonics would be propaganda, not apologetics.

Corr: next to last line: 'tenets' not 'tenants' lol

You are behind the times.

Opisthotonic death pose - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2012, paleontologists Achim G. Reisdorf and Michael Wuttke published a study regarding death poses. According to the conclusions of this study, the so-called "opisthotonic posture" is not the result of a cerebral illness creating muscle spasms, and also not of a rapid burial. Rather, peri-mortem submersion resulted in buoyancy that enabled the Ligamentum elasticum to pull the head and tail back.​

Sorry Wikipedia is just about worthless. Do these people not realize that the creatures are in piles in many cases? It is not about the individual death process at all. Besides that, they are there because of rapidly moving slurry which damaged them and that's why the digs are so intricate: you have to remove settled slurry piece by piece to find the shape of the creature. Of course at the top you see the surface partly exposed samples first.

Alternately there is the 10K mammoths stuck in 'loess' in Siberia. This is not about opisthotonics. Loess is blowing sand and ice. It happened within hours. They are all oriented the same direction because they thought they could escape the 'loess' instead they all accumulated a downwind pileup that stalled and then suffocated them upright. This is about a related massive event which Whitcomb and Morris sketched in their study of catastrophism in the 60s. But it is about mass burial events.

 

[CrowCross]

Alternately there is the 10K mammoths stuck in 'loess' in Siberia. This is not about opisthotonics. Loess is blowing sand and ice. It happened within hours. They are all oriented the same direction because they thought they could escape the 'loess' instead they all accumulated a downwind pileup that stalled and then suffocated them upright. This is about a related massive event which Whitcomb and Morris sketched in their study of catastrophism in the 60s. But it is about mass burial events.

To address this point...Michael Oard article that explains a lot....

A number of creationist hypotheses involve a quick freeze, because it was thought that the state of preservation of the carcasses with only half-decayed vegetation in their stomachs demanded it.

 

[EarlyActs]

This last is a very odd statement. All of those articles are both facts presented and conclusions or observations rendered. It doesn't matter whether it is "apologetics."

For ex., there is only one way to have opisthotonics take place. That is the feature of many dinosaur bone piles where things are smashed, crushed, piled, bent over impossible on each other: major slurry movement and force! This is a fact beyond any individual instance. It is worldwide.

To refuse this is to impose a view on things; the refusal has nothing to do with evidence. It is just as possible for gradualists to do "apologetics" for gradualism--provided they actually have facts. But that would ruin the word, because the writers are defending the whole narrative laid out in Genesis, not just one bit piece. Gradualism that pushed its tenants instead of agreed-to facts like opisthotonics would be propaganda, not apologetics.

Corr: next to last line: 'tenets' not 'tenants' lol

You are behind the times.

Opisthotonic death pose - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2012, paleontologists Achim G. Reisdorf and Michael Wuttke published a study regarding death poses. According to the conclusions of this study, the so-called "opisthotonic posture" is not the result of a cerebral illness creating muscle spasms, and also not of a rapid burial. Rather, peri-mortem submersion resulted in buoyancy that enabled the Ligamentum elasticum to pull the head and tail back.​

Sorry Wikipedia is just about worthless. Do these people not realize that the creatures are in piles in many cases? It is not about the individual death process at all. Besides that, they are there because of rapidly moving slurry which damaged them and that's why the digs are so intricate: you have to remove settled slurry piece by piece to find the shape of the creature. Of course at the top you see the surface samples first.

Alternately there is the 10K mammoths stuck in 'loess' in Siberia. This is not about opisthotonics. Loess is blowing sand and ice. It happened within hours. They are all oriented the same direction because they thought they could escape the 'loess' instead they all accumulated a downwind pileup that stalled and then suffocated them upright. This is about a related massive event which Whitcomb and Morris sketched in their study of catastrophism in the 60s. But it is about mass burial events.

To address this point...Michael Oard article that explains a lot....

A number of creationist hypotheses involve a quick freeze, because it was thought that the state of preservation of the carcasses with only half-decayed vegetation in their stomachs demanded it.

There are great studies about 'loess' is not by "creationists." One is Russian and the term itself is German.

 

[Frank Robert]

Sorry Wikipedia is just about worthless. Do these people not realize that the creatures are in piles in many cases? It is not about the individual death process at all.

Do you have any scientific studies that you can link to?

Alternately there is the 10K mammoths stuck in 'loess' in Siberia. This is not about opisthotonics. Loess is blowing sand and ice. It happened within hours. They are all oriented the same direction because they thought they could escape the 'loess' instead they all accumulated a downwind pileup that stalled and then suffocated them upright. This is about a related massive event which Whitcomb and Morris sketched in their study of catastrophism in the 60s. But it is about mass burial events.

Are you referring to 10K mammoths or the remains or a 10K year old mammoth found in Siberia?

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you have any scientific studies that you can link to?

Are you referring to 10K mammoths or the remains of a 10K year old mammoth found in Siberia?

Dinosaur national monument is a building constructed over just one of these. It is a national park in Utah.

Creationwiki.com has about 9000 articles total, last I checked. Most are too technical for me to read. All are banned by wikipedia which is a CIA psy-op.

For footage of several opisthotonic sites, see

Tomachoff. 1929. Studies on woolly mammoths as anomalies.

Vershagin. MAMMOTH CEMETERIES. Research on the thousands in groups in permafrost. One of the crimes of modern times is that the ivory is being stolen as the bodies become more exposed.

Ward. CALL OF THE DISTANT MOUNTAINS. Research on the anomalies of the woolly mammoths.

These items are from my resource list in the back of my novel DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS in which ancient geology shakes up modern lives. It is a 6 page list.

 

[CrowCross]

Dinosaur national monument is a building constructed over just one of these. It is a national park in Utah.

Creationwiki.com has about 9000 articles total, last I checked. Most are too technical for me to read. All are banned by wikipedia which is a CIA psy-op.

For footage of several opisthotonic sites, see

Tomachoff. 1929. Studies on woolly mammoths as anomalies.

Vershagin. MAMMOTH CEMETERIES. Research on the thousands in groups in permafrost. One of the crimes of modern times is that the ivory is being stolen as the bodies become more exposed.

Ward. CALL OF THE DISTANT MOUNTAINS. Research on the anomalies of the woolly mammoths.

These items are from my resource list in the back of my novel DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS in which ancient geology shakes up modern lives. It is a 6 page list.

Robert Frank doesn't listen to any pro-bible videos. What is he so afraid of?

 

[Frank Robert]

To address this point...Michael Oard article that explains a lot....

A number of creationist hypotheses involve a quick freeze

Are any of the creationist hypotheses testable?

Robert Frank doesn't listen to any pro-bible videos. What is he so afraid of?

You are making an erroneous assertion. I am pro bible, even pro OT. You would likely be surprised what the CC has to say about the OT;

The Church teaches that the Old Testament is indispensable for Christian life. All the books of the Old Testament are inspired by God and of permanent value for Christians. The covenant of God with the people of the Old Testament has never been revoked. (Catechism of the Catholic Church #121).​

If you want to be accurate you could say that Frank Robert is not a fan of a liberal interpretation of the OT.

Dinosaur national monument is a building constructed over just one of these. It is a national park in Utah.

Creationwiki.com has about 9000 articles total, last I checked. Most are too technical for me to read. All are banned by wikipedia which is a CIA psy-op.

For footage of several opisthotonic sites, see

Tomachoff. 1929. Studies on woolly mammoths as anomalies.

Vershagin. MAMMOTH CEMETERIES. Research on the thousands in groups in permafrost. One of the crimes of modern times is that the ivory is being stolen as the bodies become more exposed.

Ward. CALL OF THE DISTANT MOUNTAINS. Research on the anomalies of the woolly mammoths.

These items are from my resource list in the back of my novel DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS in which ancient geology shakes up modern lives. It is a 6 page list.

Thank you. I found a pdf of Deluge Of Suspicionse on the internet. It sounds like an interesting read.

 

[EarlyActs]

Are any of the creationist hypotheses testable?

You are making an erroneous assertion. I am pro bible, even pro OT. You would likely be surprised what the CC has to say about the OT;

The Church teaches that the Old Testament is indispensable for Christian life. All the books of the Old Testament are inspired by God and of permanent value for Christians. The covenant of God with the people of the Old Testament has never been revoked. (Catechism of the Catholic Church #121).​

If you want to be accurate you could say that Frank Robert is not a fan of a liberal interpretation of the OT.

Thank you. I found a pdf of Deluge Of Suspicionse on the internet. It sounds like an interesting read.

Do you mean a whole copy is there for free?

I have this question about testable. In smaller floods and events we can see all kinds of hydrological principles at work. For ex., Mt. St. Helens. But there wouldn't be a whole earth test!

What is factual is a step below that: sedimentary slurry in Monterey Canyon is from clear across N America. Same for central Australia. Slurry from central MT is under the football stadium in Eugene OR, OSU. Undulation shapes will form the same whether 2" tall or 200 ft all like the Palouse, WA. It just takes sheeting water movement.