A trinity of reality

[Runningman]

No. It is an eisegesis because BU are "importing" or "drawing in" into the text.

a). It's assumed that the one God is only the Father.
b). Then excluded out the Son and the Holy Spirit.
c). Basically, it's restricting and isolating a concept from the whole of Scriptures.
d). The whole of Scriptures teaches that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is also God.

It's what the entire Bible is about. The only true God mentioned in scripture is the Father, also known as YHWH. This is both explicitly stated, inferred, and described repeatedly.

Trinitarians superimpose their theological framework over the Bible and project into scripture something they believe without having the essential explicit declarations in the scripture that actually say the same things their doctrine about who is say, i.e., if you overlay the Athanasian Creed over the Bible you won't find anything that matches what it says. Do you see that?

Don't forget that I'm a Hypostatic Unionist. We believe that Jesus Christ is both God and Man. I believe Jesus Christ is referring to himself and the Father. And I also believe that verse 26 is referring to himself and the Father. As a matter of fact, there are so many instance where Jesus Christ talks about himself in the third person like in verse 28. Even your famous all-go-to Scripture in John 17:3, he spoke about himself in the third person in prayer.

Thank you for saying this is your belief. I believe you are wrong. Jesus denied being the Father. Because of this fact alone, I therefore believe Jesus is not the Father. While I can understand how you may conflate Jesus and God with being one another, I assure you this is a misunderstanding. Jesus does indeed share many things in common with God and we are to share many things in common with Jesus, be Christlike.

While on Earth, Jesus said to call no one on earth their father. If someone called Jesus the Father on earth then they would be wrong. Therefore, when Jesus was taken to heaven by God, he didn't suddenly become the Father. If Jesus stopped being the Father on earth then not only would he not be God, but also he couldn't be both God and man as you say.

Mat 23​

9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.​

And don't forget John 7:29, 8:55, 10:15, 17:25 too.

So, the objection to the argument is that the doctrine of the Trinity implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all possess the same singular Divine Nature and all the attributes, such as omniscience, etc. And the three persons don’t constitute a kind of social committee, in which one member could conceivably withhold information from another, but God does withhold information from creation like "day and hour" of the Son's return (Acts 1:7). It is a false to conclude that the Father knows something that the Son does not, (No one knows the 'day and hour' but the Father only, excluding out the Son, Matthew 24:36) or vice versa, (No one knows his 'name' but the Son himself, excluding out the Father, Revelations 19:12) when both are the same God, and both are omniscient.

It's interesting that you don't take those passages literally. I imagine it's because a literal interpretation of those passages doesn't help you. I take them literally. I don't see a clear reason to believe they are symbolic or metaphor.

What's your workaround for the fact that "omniscient Jesus" didn't know when fig season was? Is that a problem for your hypostatic union?

Mark 11​

12The next day, when they had left Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if there was any fruit on it. But when He reached it, He found nothing on it except leaves, since it was not the season for figs.​

The Unitarians would have to assumed that the Father restricted omniscient too according to their own argument. Jesus Christ said: "All that belongs to the Father is mine (all includes 'day and hour'). That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me that he will make known to you.” (John 16:15). Unitarians would automatically have to assume the Holy Spirit lack knowledge of the 'day and hour' too. Since the Holy Spirit only receives from the Son. If the Son doesn't know, then the Holy Spirit doesn't know. So, it would amount to the Father lacks knowledge of the 'day and hour' he placed in his own authority. Because Unitarians believe the Father's spirit is the Holy Spirit. Sounds like Unitarians got problems.

Either that or only the Father is God and is omniscient and the others aren't. I would also say that sometimes it may seem that the Bible writers were a bit all inclusive in regards to the things they said. However, if it can be found that there are exceptions to saying "All that belongs to the Father is mine..." then that would automatically inform how to understand those words. Jesus was speaking in a limited sense. You already provided one example above where no one, not even the Son, knows the day or hour. If that's the case, then we wouldn't write that off as a contradiction, but rather informative to context. This happens a lot actually so it isn't unprecedented, but what is unprecedented is that Jesus is God or posses the exact attributes of who God is.

Here are some examples where it's easy to see where the writers are speaking to a specific context rather than generally.

The gospel has absolutely not been preached to every creature under heaven, not even during Paul's time. This isn't even debatable.

Colossians 1​

23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.​

​

The disciples were absolutely not there at the literal beginning (of creation) to see, hear, smell, or touch anything.

1 John 1​

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.​

 

[Mr GLee]

Funny. Stick around and you might learn what the Trinity teaches. A mature Unitarian would acknowledge the Trinity is monotheistic. We don't believe in three gods. The "persons" are ascribed as "God," not by the person, but according to the Divine Nature. And don't forget that majority of BU (Biblical Unitarians) turns Jesus Christ into some kind of demi-god upon his exaltation. Unitarians are tritheistic or polytheistic when you scratch underneath their Christology.

God is one person The Holy Spirit of the Father speaks the word of God Three denotes the end of a matter.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear (one) witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (in the same) If we receive the witness of men, the witness (one) of God is greater: for this is the witness of God(one) which he hath testified of his Son.

 

[Runningman]

God is one person The Holy Spirit of the Father speaks the word of God Three denotes the end of a matter.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear (one) witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (in the same) If we receive the witness of men, the witness (one) of God is greater: for this is the witness of God(one) which he hath testified of his Son.

Is 1 John 5:7 even legit though? There was a big to-do about this and it ended up getting removed.

 

[Binyawmene]

It's what the entire Bible is about. The only true God mentioned in scripture is the Father, also known as YHWH. This is both explicitly stated, inferred, and described repeatedly.

The thing is, I believe 1 John 5:20 says that Jesus Christ is that true God too. And not only that, but John said that he is also: "the true Light" (John 1:9), "the true Bread" (John 6:32), "the true Vine" (John 15:1), "the true One" (Revelations 3:7), "the true Witness" (Revelations 3:14), and "true Sovereign and Lord" (Revelations 6:10). But for some reason when it comes to Jesus Christ being "the true God" (1 John 5:20) there is a denial. Why do you think that is?

Trinitarians superimpose their theological framework over the Bible and project into scripture something they believe without having the essential explicit declarations in the scripture that actually say the same things their doctrine about who is say, i.e., if you overlay the Athanasian Creed over the Bible you won't find anything that matches what it says. Do you see that?

Yeah, yeah, I know, the blame game because you are in denial of the eisegesis. You know I can do the same eisegesis that Unitarians do by superimposing "One Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 8:6, "one Lord" Ephesians 4:5, "same Lord" 1 Corinthians 12:5, "Christ is all, and is in all" Colossians 3:11, "and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" Jude 1:4, "true Sovereign and Lord" Revelations 6:10) into Scriptures excluding out the Father and the Holy Spirit. And then restrict and isolate "THE ONLY ONE SAME LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALL AND IN ALL" from the whole of Scriptures. But Trinitarians don't do eisegesis because we acknowledge that the Father is Lord and the Holy Spirit is Lord. You can't see the eisegesis because of your denial that Jesus Christ is God.

Thank you for saying this is your belief. I believe you are wrong. Jesus denied being the Father. Because of this fact alone, I therefore believe Jesus is not the Father. While I can understand how you may conflate Jesus and God with being one another, I assure you this is a misunderstanding. Jesus does indeed share many things in common with God and we are to share many things in common with Jesus, be Christlike.

And here, you assumed Unitarianism. You have superimposed Unitarianism into the Trinity framework. Take off the blinders or that red lens glasses because you are only seeing the color red. In Trinitarianism, we don't restrict and isolate the Father-person being one God only. There are two more "persons" who is that one God too. We don't believe Jesus Christ is the Father, but we distinguish the Son and the Father in distinction. So, there is no conflation, the conflation is the result of you superimposing Unitarianism into the Trinity framework.

While on Earth, Jesus said to call no one on earth their father. If someone called Jesus the Father on earth then they would be wrong. Therefore, when Jesus was taken to heaven by God, he didn't suddenly become the Father. If Jesus stopped being the Father on earth then not only would he not be God, but also he couldn't be both God and man as you say.

Interesting. When I say, "Jesus Christ is not the Father," you would agree. Because in your eyes that is equivalent to "Jesus Christ is not God" since you assumed that the "Father and "God" are used interchangeably. I cracked your color-coded terminology block. This line of argument was caused by you superimposing Unitarianism. In Trinitarianism, we have no problem with the Father being Lord and God, and that Jesus Christ is not the Father, and that Jesus Christ is that Lord and God too. What you said sounds like some kind of twisted version of Oneness. But I encourage you to keep learning what the Trinity actually teaches instead of straw man.

It's interesting that you don't take those passages literally. I imagine it's because a literal interpretation of those passages doesn't help you. I take them literally. I don't see a clear reason to believe they are symbolic or metaphor.

You lost me here. What literal, symbolic or metaphor? Maybe you are just saying that, just to be saying it. Since you have nothing else to say in the objection.

What's your workaround for the fact that "omniscient Jesus" didn't know when fig season was? Is that a problem for your hypostatic union?

Mark 11​

12The next day, when they had left Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if there was any fruit on it. But when He reached it, He found nothing on it except leaves, since it was not the season for figs.​

The Hypostatic Union teaches two natures in union by the Son-person. And attributes belong to the nature and not of the Person. What you are doing is making a category mistake. It's like asking me "ignorance" is the attribute of the Divine Nature or "omniscience is the attribute of the human nature."

Category Mistake:

Divine Nature is both omnipotent and powerless.
or,
Human Nature is both powerless and omnipotent.

Divine Nature is both omnipresent and localized.
or,
Human Nature is both localized and omnipresent.

Divine Nature is both omniscient and ignorant.
or,
Human Nature is both ignorant and omniscient.​

For instance, the human attributes don't leave the human nature and place itself inside the Person or inside the Divine Nature. While the human nature no longer has the human attributes. The human attributes never left the human nature. Also, conversely, the same goes according to the Divine Nature too. Obviously according to the doctrine, we can say, "It is not the case that powerless is a attribute of the Divine Nature." So powerless does not belong to the Divine Nature. In the same manner that tails do not belong to the same side-of-heads. Its not one and the same thing, they don't belong to each other.

Either that or only the Father is God and is omniscient and the others aren't. I would also say that sometimes it may seem that the Bible writers were a bit all inclusive in regards to the things they said. However, if it can be found that there are exceptions to saying "All that belongs to the Father is mine..." then that would automatically inform how to understand those words. Jesus was speaking in a limited sense. You already provided one example above where no one, not even the Son, knows the day or hour. If that's the case, then we wouldn't write that off as a contradiction, but rather informative to context. This happens a lot actually so it isn't unprecedented, but what is unprecedented is that Jesus is God or posses the exact attributes of who God is.

Except that's not how the argument goes. Here is the answer:

If the Son is speaking from the standpoint of his Divine Nature, then this is where the Unitarian's argument is boiled down to and centered upon. Logically, the Unitarians cannot argue from the Hypostatic Unionists' position that "Jesus Christ lacks knowledge as a man," so some Unitarians will ride with "as God" argument. The arguments would look like this or something similar to it: "If the Son as 'God in the flesh was ignorant according to the Divine Nature, then he would not be God". The argument is based on "the Son as God" in order to imply that "God cannot be omniscient". The argument is not based on the Son as a man, and not knowing the day and hour of his return. Most Hypostatic Unionists would see this particular argument as being a straw man, ridiculous and absurd. That the Son as God is omniscient according to the Divine Nature doesn't lack knowledge by any logical means. The Son did not know the day and the hour from his humanity, but he did know it in his humanity. Because he is the Son as God in the flesh (or 'Deity exist in bodily form').

 

[Mr GLee]

You do know that verse is suspect and also Matthew 28:19?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

The Holy Father whose Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Sonship that works sons of God. by which we can cry out Abba

Galatians 4:6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

One Spirit, One God one person.

 

[A branch]

You do know that verse is suspect and also Matthew 28:19?

Depends upon ones Faith. The more Faith the easier it is to believe.

 

[A branch]

1 John 5:7 has been redacted from most modern Bibles because it was proven beyond a doubt it was a later addition to the text. In other words, it's a lie. How would you explain this?

I don't need to explain something I don't believe in.

 

[donadams]

???

If you actually understand him you Would be the first! Lol!

 

[donadams]

The trinity isn't found in scripture. It isn't explained or described.

Matt 3:17 and Matt 28:19 father, son, and spirit

 

[EarlyActs]

I don't need to explain something I don't believe in.

This does not all come down to the veracity of one text, because the 40 days of instruction in-person are the core NT Christian beliefs and have a 4th dimensional reality. As most observers have noticed, there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit mentioned. Not two and not 5. No named angel(s) etc. Just those 3. My math tells me that is a tri-unity, a trinity. It is a unity because they have one mission.

 

[donadams]

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is Jesus Christ the “WORD”?
Is Jesus Christ God?
Did God become man? (Incarnation)

 

[Mr GLee]

I would suggest reading Sayers. The question is like the existence of God. The fiber/structure of many things makes less sense without it.

Reading Sayers?

 

[donadams]

Just stick with Scriptures.

Matthew 3:16-17 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Does not the description of “God the Father” imply “God the something other than Father?

Or else it would simply say God, or the Father, or God our father?

 

[donadams]

1 Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Only God existed “in the beginning”!

 

[Mr GLee]

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is Jesus Christ the “WORD”?
Is Jesus Christ God?
Did God become man? (Incarnation)

Jesus the Son of man informs us whosoever does the will of the Father our God not seen the same is his brother sister and mother , call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See e.t.c. . It's not about dying fleshly families as earthly inspired govements

Is Jesus the Son of man your brother in the lord or Peter? Is Mary your sister in the lord or do you have another authority other than all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Why call the Pope, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ,Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy. Metropolitan Archbishop of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the Servants of God

Do you think it violates the loving living command not to call man on earth Holy Father if not what the secret why it does not apply to Catholic brothers and sisters ?

 

[donadams]

Jesus the Son of man informs us whosoever does the will of the Father our God not seen the same is his brother sister and mother , call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See e.t.c. . It's not about dying fleshly families as earthly inspired govements

Is Jesus the Son of man your brother in the lord or Peter? Is Mary your sister in the lord or do you have another authority other than all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Why call the Pope, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ,Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy. Metropolitan Archbishop of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the Servants of God

Do you think it violates the loving living command not to call man on earth Holy Father if not what the secret why it does not apply to Catholic brothers and sisters ?

A bit late Gg topic here!
This thread is about the trinity!
Please reply in the Roman Catholic forum I have a thread “call no man father” thanks

 

[Mr GLee]

Matt 3:17 and Matt 28:19 father, son, and spirit

Did you mean the Father as the Spirit of Sonship. or spirit of adoption? he works in all sons of God . what we will be when we receive our new bodies is not know . As the bride of Christ. There will be no procreating, neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile

She is described in a parable Revelation 12 the glorious bride of Christ as the mother of all Christians . the end of time the under the Sun the temporal time keeper under her feet .

Revelation 12King James Version12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

 

[Mr GLee]

A bit late Gg topic here!
This thread is about the trinity!
Please reply in the Roman Catholic forum I have a thread “call no man father” thanks

The trinity is what I am denying.

 

[donadams]

The trinity is what I am denying.

Then you are denying the Christian faith? And Christ who revealed it?

 

[donadams]

Dogma’s, decree’s, & creeds!

255 catholic Dogmas or thee faith revealed by Christ! Jude 1:3

The Christian faith revealed by Christ and taught by holy mother church binding all Christians to true faith. Matt 16:19 and 18:18

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 18:18

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye (apostles) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Dogma:
255 Short & concise statements of the Christian faith.

The apostolic authority is in unity with Christ.

Jn 15:5 apart from me you (apostles) can do nothing.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…
Jn 8:32 And ye (apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The holy apostolic church invokes the Holy Ghost!

Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Decree’s of apostolic councils!

Binding the faith of all Christians.

Four authentic creeds of the Christian church:

Apostles creed:
Nicene creed:
Athanasius creed:
Chalcedon creed:

Faith / doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jn 8:32 And ye (the apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (the Apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Then they must teach us! Matt 28:19


34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
35. In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.

36. The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
37. The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
38. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
39. The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
40. The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.

42. All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
*Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.