A question on grace.

[Soyeong]

Actually, it is the result of believing, not the way to believe.

This incorrect order, reversing cause and result, characterizes your thinking.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is neither the case that we are required to have done those works first as the cause that results in becoming saved, nor is it the case that we are required to do those works as the result that was caused by having been saved first, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. This is the way to believe, not the result or cause of believing.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Scripture says we are saved by grace. How does grace save us? Is it really grace that does the work?
Or is it just a decision by God that sets everything else in motion? If it is just a decision, what are the steps for our salvation to be completed?

I'm assuming you are referring to Ephesians 2.

Faith is what accomplishes it. Faith is the how. Grace describes why.

If I were to paraphrase Ephesians 2:8 using everyday words, it would look like this:

For no reason other than God's favor, y'all are healed through belief. This healing doesn't come from yourself. The gift is from God.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm assuming you are referring to Ephesians 2.

Faith is what accomplishes it. Faith is the how. Grace describes why.

If I were to paraphrase Ephesians 2:8 using everyday words, it would look like this:

For no reason other than God's favor, y'all are healed through belief. This healing doesn't come from yourself. The gift is from God.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation as the result of our good works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works.

 

[Josheb]

Yes and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits.

Whoa!


Am I to understand that to say works are the way to belief? If so, then maybe you could provide us with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three if you can find them.

 

[Soyeong]

Whoa!


Am I to understand that to say works are the way to belief? If so, then maybe you could provide us with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three if you can find them.

Yes, works are the way to believe, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so I don't see good grounds for thinking that someone who is keeping God's commandments doesn't have faith in Jesus even if they claim otherwise. Likewise, in James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works, so anyone who is doing the same works as him is showing the same faith as him, and I don't see good grounds for considering such as person to be an unbeliever even if they claimed otherwise. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), even if the claim otherwise.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I think that becoming courageous is becoming that trait, but you are are right that it sounds a bit odd, which is why I gave that example, though it might have been more clear if I had said becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices that trait, which includes righteousness.

Can you explain for me your view of the Fall of Man and the Gravity of sin, thanks.

 

[Ladodgers6]

If someone helps a homeless person, then the significance of that action is that they are expressing faith in in the nature of God to correctly guide them in how to rightly live rather than leaning on their own understanding, not that they are earning points as a wage.

I hope you understand that I am speaking about how a person is justified before God. No flesh will be justified through the Law, Paul says. Not even the works of believers do not justify them before God.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

People trying to seek their own righteousness, and not submitting to God's righteousness, which is, Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Doing or Law is contrary to Giving or Gospel. The Law says do, the Gospel says done. The Pharisees and the Scribes practiced righteousness and were considered to be the holiest men, but this was an outward show; white washed tombs filled with dead men bones. Understand???​

 

[Josheb]

Whoa!


Am I to understand that to say works are the way to belief? If so, then maybe you could provide us with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three if you can find them.

Yes, works are the way to believe, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so I don't see good grounds for thinking that someone who is keeping God's commandments doesn't have faith in Jesus even if they claim otherwise. Likewise, in James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works, so anyone who is doing the same works as him is showing the same faith as him, and I don't see good grounds for considering such as person to be an unbeliever even if they claimed otherwise. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), even if the claim otherwise.

That is not what I asked for.

I specifically asked for, an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Every scripture just referenced was written by a believer to believers about believers. Not a single word of any of it is about non-believers. So let's try this again.

Can we please be provided with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three specific examples, if you can find them, would be even better.



Thank you

 

[TibiasDad]

Upon what does God base that decision?

His own will and desire!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Can you understand that is a problem to be solved and not a good thing?

• Bert's definition is from _________________.
• Ernie's definition is from _________________.
• Fred's definition is from _________________.
• Ethel's definition is from ________________.

• Bert's definition is from biased source __________________.
• Ernie's definition is from biased source _________________.
• Fred's definition is from biased source _________________.
• Ethel's definition is from biased source _________________.

Each believes their definition is correct, valid, and veracious because it is from their preferred biased source and the bona fides accompanying that source.

That is not a definition. It's merely observation that begins with a question-begging redundancy. Grace is grace. Work is work. Rest is rest. Walking is walking. Running is running. Eating is eating. Cleaning is cleaning.

• The one working didn't have to be working.
• The one resting didn't have to be resting.
• The one walking didn't have to be walking.

It is profoundly and undeniably fallacious. This is an example of sophistry, not intellectually rigorous or scripturally founded substance.

Matt 7:1

Thank you for your kindness,

Doug

 

[David1701]

I'm assuming you are referring to Ephesians 2.

Faith is what accomplishes it. Faith is the how. Grace describes why.

If I were to paraphrase Ephesians 2:8 using everyday words, it would look like this:

For no reason other than God's favor, y'all are healed through belief. This healing doesn't come from yourself. The gift is from God.

It's grace that accomplishes salvation, using faith as the means. Grace is not just the why, but also the effectual action by God, turning the why into reality, through faith.

Eph. 2:8 (MKJV) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

Here's a paraphrase that doesn't change the meaning.

For you are saved by unmerited favour, through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God (the salvation, the unmerited favour and the faith).

 

[David1701]

Matt 7:1

Thank you for your kindness,

Doug

Josheb's assessment was correct; and, telling someone what he needs to hear is the kind thing to do, whether he likes it or not.

 

[TibiasDad]

Josheb's assessment was correct; and, telling someone what he needs to hear is the kind thing to do, whether he likes it or not.

Matt 7:1

Thank you for your kindness,

Doug

 

[David1701]

Matt 7:1

Thank you for your kindness,

Doug

It was kind, as I pointed out. Why do you persist in your snide implication of censorious judgment (which is, ironically, itself judgmental)?

 

[Josheb]

.

God decides/chooses to use His power...

Upon what does God base that decision?

His own will and desire!

God decides/chooses to use His power based on His will and desire. Am I correctly understanding the posts? If so, is God basing his decision/choice to use His power ONLY on His will and desire, or is there some other, additional basis upon which He decides to use His power?

 

[Ladodgers6]

God’s decides/chooses to use his power; it is that power which is what effects the goodness we receive from him when he acts kindly toward us who do not deserve it, and are incapable of ever earning or meriting such kindness!

Doug

Is it effectual in its cause? Or can it be rejected? And if it can be rejected what is the cause?

 

[Soyeong]

I hope you understand that I am speaking about how a person is justified before God. No flesh will be justified through the Law, Paul says. Not even the works of believers do not justify them before God.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

People trying to seek their own righteousness, and not submitting to God's righteousness, which is, Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Doing or Law is contrary to Giving or Gospel. The Law says do, the Gospel says done. The Pharisees and the Scribes practiced righteousness and were considered to be the holiest men, but this was an outward show; white washed tombs filled with dead men bones. Understand???​

Do you agree or disagree becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices that trait? So becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness. The the only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith.

So while I agree the the only way to become righteous is through faith and that no one is declared righteous as the result obeying God's law first as if it could be earned as a wage, becoming someone who is righteous means becoming someone who practices righteousness, which is in accordance with Romans 3:28-4:5.

Someone who seeks their own righteousness is doing something on their own apart from what God has instructed, while the way for someone to submit to the righteousness of God is by obeying what He has instructed. Christ is not the end of the law, but rather knowing hi is the goal of the law (Matthew 7:23).

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to is central part of the Gospel of Christ, which is in opposition to your gospel of the law ending, which would be terrible news. The Pharisees who were white washed tombs full of dead mens bones were not practicing righteousness.

 

[Josheb]

bump @Soyeong

Can we please be provided with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three specific examples, if you can find them, would be even better.


Thx

 

[Soyeong]

bump @Soyeong

Can we please be provided with an example in scripture where a non-believer worked his/her way into belief. Two or three specific examples, if you can find them, would be even better.


Thx

Sorry for misunderstanding you.

I claimed that becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits. I did not claim that non-believers work his/her way into belief.

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry for misunderstanding you.

I claimed that becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits. I did not claim that non-believers work his/her way into belief.

The way to believe in Christ is to completely trust him, the way to grow in Christ is obedience, two different operations.