A question on grace.

[Soyeong]

"if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."​

Why are you refusing to recognize the distinction that I made between the way to become a character trait and what we are becoming when we become a character trait? To declare that someone has become courageous is to communicate that they have become someone who practices courageousness, to declare that someone has become peaceful is to communicate that they have become someone who practices peacefulness, to declare that someone has become righteous is to communicate that they have become someone who practices righteousness, and so forth. It would be contradictory to become a character apart from becoming someone who practices it, so we should not understand the Bible as teaching this.

In Galatians 2:21, Paul denies that we can become righteous as the result of having first obeyed God's law, which is a position that I completely agree with. In fact in the post that you were responding to, I specifically said that "it not the case that if we do a certain amount of courageous works first, then that result in us becoming courageous as through it were earned as a wage, so we become courageous by faith apart from having first done courageous works. The same is true for any other character trait including righteousness."

Are you conflating Gospel into Law & Law into Gospel which is no good news.​

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so I am not conflating the Mosaic Law with the Gospel, but rather repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is a central part of the Gospel that Jesus taught, so you are trying to separate them, which indeed is not good news. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), and if you held that view of the Mosaic Law, then you would find the Gospel that Jesus taught to be very good news.

God demands perfect holiness as he is holy. That is why Christ came in the flesh, born under the Law, to fulfill the Law with his perfect Law-Keeping for us. Without this Soyeong no one would be saved, and by doing this, the broken Covenant is fulfilled by his obedience that brings Life and justification (Justice). For even the works we practice as believers are not the cause or even justify us before God.​

Nowhere does the Bible state that God demands perfect holiness or that Jesus kept the law for us. If we were cheated of the delight of actually getting to become someone who practices holiness, but remained someone who practices unholiness while being counted as someone who practices holiness, then that is what would not be good news. We are saved through faith, not through having perfect holiness. The purpose for which God commanded His people to practice holiness was never to provide a way of justifying ourselves before God.

Justification by Faith Alone is either by a righteousness that is given freely in the Gospel, or it's by our merits and efforts, meaning it's through the Law. And yes God declares the ungodly not the godly righteous on account of Christ and his works of the Law, and they are declared righteous, right then when they receive it through Faith Alone.​

Nowhere does the Bible say that there is a way of becoming justified other than through faith alone, but rather even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God's law, then they still wouldn't earn their justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believed. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith alone.

Trusting in the promises of that he did for us in Christ.
​

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

While we do not inherit the promise as the result of having first obeyed God's law, that does not mean that the content of the promise is not connected with living in obedience to it. In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the starts in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through His children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that.

The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 is in accordance with Acts 3:25-26, where he was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Psalms 119;1-3, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are a multiplied and are blessing a blessing to the nations in accordance with trusting in the promise is not through having many physical descendants, but through turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law in accordance with spreading the Gospel.

Huh??? These comments are contradictory Soyeong. The ungodly are not justified before God by their so-called righteous works or becoming righteous by practicing righteousness. Okay, let's see, what do you mean by we do not need to do righteous works first in order to result in becoming righteous? Can you define this for me? It is precisely the PROMISE God made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham that righteous works result from having been first declared righteous because of Christ and his merits.

Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

By One Man's Obedience, Soyeong, many will be made righteous. It's by his merits, not ours! Notice how Paul makes a juxtaposition between the two Adams? One has condemned us all by his One Act of Disobedience while Christ brings many to be made righteous by HIS One Act of Obedience. Understanding what Paul is saying here, is crucial in Justification of the Ungodly through Faith Alone in this Promise that God did in Christ for us! This Soyeong is the good news and the free gift of righteousness which is not earned by us by practicing righteousness.​

Again, there is a distinction between the way to become righteous and what we are becoming when we become righteous. In Romans 3:28, the way to become righteous is by faith alone apart from being required to do any works in order to become righteous, but that does not mean that becoming righteous is apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law, because in Romans 3:31, the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it. To say that God is righteous is to communicate that He practices righteousness and it would be contradictory to say that God is righteous if He did not practice righteousness, so I agree that we become righteous by one man's obedience and what we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness in accordance with one man's example. Practicing righteousness first has nothing to do with earning our righteousness as the result, but rather the experience of getting to practice righteousness is the content of God's gift of righteousness.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Why are you refusing to recognize the distinction that I made between the way to become a character trait and what we are becoming when we become a character trait?

I'll let you answer this. Do you believe that in the Gospel we receive justification solely on account of imputed/credited Righteousness of Christ through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law, while we are were sinners. Or do you believe one that is practicing righteousness receives justification based human efforts?​

 

[makesends]

@Soyeong
Soyeong said:
Why are you refusing to recognize the distinction that I made between the way to become a character trait and what we are becoming when we become a character trait?

This seems a very strange use of language. What does it mean, "become a character trait". Does someone become a descriptive?

 

[Soyeong]

@Soyeong
Soyeong said:
Why are you refusing to recognize the distinction that I made between the way to become a character trait and what we are becoming when we become a character trait?

This seems a very strange use of language. What does it mean, "become a character trait". Does someone become a descriptive?

For example, being courageous is a character trait that someone can become. The only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageous, so there are no amount of courageous acts that someone is required first in order to become courageous as the result as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness. The same is true of being righteous or any other character trait.

It would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming someone who practices courageousness, just as it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness, yet that is how people commonly misinterpret Romans 3:28-31. The reality is that Paul was denying that works are part of what we are required to do first in order to become righteous as the result, not denying that becoming someone who does works is what we are becoming when we become righteous, which he made clear by saying that the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it.

 

[Soyeong]

I'll let you answer this. Do you believe that in the Gospel we receive justification solely on account of imputed/credited Righteousness of Christ through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law, while we are were sinners. Or do you believe one that is practicing righteousness receives justification based human efforts?​

The Gospel that Jesus taught was to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Do you you agree that someone can become a doer of works that expresses faith in God? For example, do you agree that a sinner can become a helper of the poor because they have faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live and become imputed with the righteousness of Christ through that faith alone apart from being required to do a certain amount of helping the poor first in order to become righteous as the result as if it could be earned as a wage. I do not believe that we are declared righteous as the result of first practicing righteousness, but rather practicing righteousness is the way to express faith in God and we are declared righteous by that faith apart from having first practiced righteousness. It would be incorrect for someone to think that obediently having faith in what God has instructed involves relying on human efforts.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Gospel that Jesus taught was to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Why should anyone repent? BTW, why don't you mention Christ and his merits?

Do you you agree that someone can become a doer of works that expresses faith in God?

Soyeong, not in accordance to our justification before God. Do you believe that it is Christ and his merits that saves?

For example, do you agree that a sinner can become a helper of the poor because they have faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live and become imputed with the righteousness of Christ through that faith alone apart from being required to do a certain amount of helping the poor first in order to become righteous as the result as if it could be earned as a wage.

Soyeong, we are only counted righteous through Faith Alone apart form works. Understand this, then you will understand how we are to walk in good works.​

I do not believe that we are declared righteous as the result of first practicing righteousness, but rather practicing righteousness is the way to express faith in God and we are declared righteous by that faith apart from having first practiced righteousness.

Do you not see the problem here Soyeong? If this is what you believe, then it's no longer Grace, but works. You are trying to validate your Faith through your works, instead of trusting in him who justifies the ungodly apart from works. Our righteousness is based on another's obedience, one who practiced righteousness flawlessly without a blemish of sin. This is why those who believe will be clothed in his white robe of righteousness. This is what is meant, the ungodly are declared or counted righteous through Faith apart from works.​

It would be incorrect for someone to think that obediently having faith in what God has instructed involves relying on human efforts.

Having obedient Faith is not the cause of our Justification before God, Soyeong. There is nothing worthy in us to warrant from favor with God. Instead of trying to locate your salvation on what you do, look outside of yourself to Christ (ExtraNos). Only there do we find our salvation, justification and sanctification.​

 

[Soyeong]

Why should anyone repent? BTW, why don't you mention Christ and his merits?

In Acts 2:38, Peter instructed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Mentioning the Gospel that Christ taught is mentioning Christ. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe both in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

Soyeong, not in accordance to our justification before God. Do you believe that it is Christ and his merits that saves?

Yes and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to us to rightly guide us. Do you deny that Proverbs 3:5-7 is speaking about the way to trust God with all of our heart?

There are many other verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Joh 3:36, it equates obedience to Jesus with believing in him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

Soyeong, we are only counted righteous through Faith Alone apart form works. Understand this, then you will understand how we are to walk in good works.​

I agree, Paul was saying that we become someone who is righteous through faith apart from being required to first do works, but he was not speaking about the self-contradictory concept of becoming someone who is righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness. That would like saying we can draw a square apart from drawing a figure with four sides. Another way to put it is that we becoming someone who is righteous, someone who practices righteousness, and someone who has faith all at the same time apart from need to first have practiced righteousness.

Do you not see the problem here Soyeong? If this is what you believe, then it's no longer Grace, but works. You are trying to validate your Faith through your works, instead of trusting in him who justifies the ungodly apart from works. Our righteousness is based on another's obedience, one who practiced righteousness flawlessly without a blemish of sin. This is why those who believe will be clothed in his white robe of righteousness. This is what is meant, the ungodly are declared or counted righteous through Faith apart from works.​

I've said nothing to suggest that it is no longer grace. I'm not trying to validate my faith through my works, but rather the way to have faith is through by works. In other words, the way to have faith in the goodness of God to guide us in how to rightly live is by following God's instructions for how to do good works. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in what He has instructed and it is contradictory to trust in God while not trusting in what He has instructed. We are declared righteous apart from needing to do good works first, but we are not declared righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness. It is contradictory to become someone who is courageous apart from becoming someone who does what is courageous. You should not interpret Paul as speaking gibberish. In Revelation 19:8, the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen.

Have obedient Faith is not the cause of our Justification before God, Soyeong. There is nothing worthy in us to warrant any favor with God. Instead of trying to locate your salvation on what you do, look outside of yourself to Christ (ExtraNos). Only there do we find our salvation, justification and sanctification.​

Disobedient faith is self-contradictory. Obedience to God has nothing to do with trying to earn favor with God as a wage. Us embodying God's word is the way to look to the one who is the embodiment of God's word and it is contradictory to look to God's word made flesh instead of obeying God's word.

 

[makesends]

For example, being courageous is a character trait that someone can become. The only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageous, so there are no amount of courageous acts that someone is required first in order to become courageous as the result as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness. The same is true of being righteous or any other character trait.

It would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming someone who practices courageousness, just as it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness, yet that is how people commonly misinterpret Romans 3:28-31. The reality is that Paul was denying that works are part of what we are required to do first in order to become righteous as the result, not denying that becoming someone who does works is what we are becoming when we become righteous, which he made clear by saying that the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it.

I'm not arguing with the idea that one can become courageous (or whatever), but it is a very odd use of English to say that one can become a character trait. One can become what a character trait describes, but not become a trait. Courage is the trait. One does not become courage.

 

[Ladodgers6]

In Acts 2:38, Peter instructed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Mentioning the Gospel that Christ taught is mentioning Christ. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe both in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

You said we don't have to be perfect. So, as long as I buy a homeless person food or give them money, whenever I feel like it, to score some points, I am golden.
​

Yes and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to us to rightly guide us. Do you deny that Proverbs 3:5-7 is speaking about the way to trust God with all of our heart?

Really???

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

They have zeal for God, Soyeong, but not according to knowledge of the Promise in the Gospel, that Christ is the end of the Law for Righteousness to everyone who believes. Again Christ our righteousness, is the only righteousness that Justifies the ungodly apart from works.

You are conflating Law into Gospel and Gospel into Law, which is no gospel at all. Why? because it is no longer by Grace, but works.​

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

The inheritance comes by Promise, not Law.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

There are many other verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Joh 3:36, it equates obedience to Jesus with believing in him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

Soyeong, Sanctification and Justification are two distinct categories. I am talking about how a sinner is justified before God. Can a sinner offer works of the Law before being justified in Christ? Will God accept anything from us before we are reconciled through Faith in Christ? You keep bringing up what we do, instead of the proclamation of the Gospel, where God promises to save sinners through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. Without Christ and his merits, it's a fools errands to think you have zeal for God.​

I agree, Paul was saying that we become someone who is righteous through faith apart from being required to first do works, but he was not speaking about the self-contradictory concept of becoming someone who is righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness.

This is precisely what Paul is preaching about in the sweet waters of the Gospel. That God justifies the "UNGODLY", does it say "GODLY" for those who practice righteousness first?

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

Please, Soyeong, explain this passage for me. Does Paul say that God justifies those who practice righteousness? Or does Paul say that the one who believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY (Key Word), his FAITH is counted as righteousness? Romans 4:5 is the Promise of the Gospel, that God justifies sinners, not the righteous, for what do the righteous need saving. We do not add our obedience, works, or anything here because we don't even possess them, and when we are justified in Christ, our works flow from this justification in Christ through Faith Alone.​

That would like saying we can draw a square apart from drawing a figure with four sides. Another way to put it is that we becoming someone who is righteous, someone who practices righteousness, and someone who has faith all at the same time apart from need to first have practiced righteousness.


I've said nothing to suggest that it is no longer grace. I'm not trying to validate my faith through my works, but rather the way to have faith is through by works. In other words, the way to have faith in the goodness of God to guide us in how to rightly live is by following God's instructions for how to do good works. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in what He has instructed and it is contradictory to trust in God while not trusting in what He has instructed. We are declared righteous apart from needing to do good works first, but we are not declared righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness. It is contradictory to become someone who is courageous apart from becoming someone who does what is courageous. You should not interpret Paul as speaking gibberish. In Revelation 19:8, the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen.


Disobedient faith is self-contradictory. Obedience to God has nothing to do with trying to earn favor with God as a wage. Us embodying God's word is the way to look to the one who is the embodiment of God's word and it is contradictory to look to God's word made flesh instead of obeying God's word.

Again confusing obedient/disobedient faith with Faith Alone has been the main problem of the church for centuries in relation to justification before God. BTW, Calvin dealt with this same debate form the Sophists. So, I'll leave you with this.


"For in comparing the Law and Gospel in the letter to the Romans he says: "the righteousness that is of the law" is such that "the man who practices these things will live by them" [Rom. 10:5]. But the "righteousness that is of faith" [Rom. 10:6] announces salvation "if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that the Father raised him from dead" [Rom. 10:9]. Do you see how he makes this the distinction between Law and Gospel: that the former attributes righteousness to works, the latter bestows free righteousness apart from the help of works? This is an important passage, and one that can extricate us from many difficulties if we understand that the righteousness which is given us through the Gospel has been freed of all conditions of the Law. Here is the reason why he so often opposes the promise to the Law, as things mutually contradictory: " If the inheritance is by the Law, it is no longer by Promise [Gal. 3:18]; and passages in the same chapter that express that idea. Now, to be sure, the Law itself has its own promises [Do this and you shall live Lev. 18:5], but one must remember [Rom. 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me]. Therefore, in the promises of the Gospel there must be something distinct and different unless we would admit that the comparison is inept. But what sort difference will this be, other than that the Gospel promises are free and dependent solely upon God's Mercy and gives Life, while the promises of the Law depend upon condition of human works/efforts, resulting to be death.
​

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not arguing with the idea that one can become courageous (or whatever), but it is a very odd use of English to say that one can become a character trait. One can become what a character trait describes, but not become a trait. Courage is the trait. One does not become courage.

I think that becoming courageous is becoming that trait, but you are are right that it sounds a bit odd, which is why I gave that example, though it might have been more clear if I had said becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices that trait, which includes righteousness.

 

[Josheb]

God’s decides/chooses to use his power....

Upon what does God base that decision?

 

[Josheb]

My favorite definition of grace is from Dr. Doug Carter, missionary, and President of my Alma Mater, Ohio Christian University when I was in college. He said....

Can you understand that is a problem to be solved and not a good thing?

• Bert's definition is from _________________.
• Ernie's definition is from _________________.
• Fred's definition is from _________________.
• Ethel's definition is from ________________.

• Bert's definition is from biased source __________________.
• Ernie's definition is from biased source _________________.
• Fred's definition is from biased source _________________.
• Ethel's definition is from biased source _________________.

Each believes their definition is correct, valid, and veracious because it is from their preferred biased source and the bona fides accompanying that source.

He said, “Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn’t have to be!”

That is not a definition. It's merely observation that begins with a question-begging redundancy. Grace is grace. Work is work. Rest is rest. Walking is walking. Running is running. Eating is eating. Cleaning is cleaning.

• The one working didn't have to be working.
• The one resting didn't have to be resting.
• The one walking didn't have to be walking.

It is profoundly and undeniably fallacious. This is an example of sophistry, not intellectually rigorous or scripturally founded substance.

 

[fastfredy0]

Upon what does God base that decision?

God is the first cause and therefore there is no WHY when referring to God as there is nothing to affect Him.

... or maybe He flips a coin

 

[Josheb]

I'd like to address and clarify this notion "God did not have to ___________________________."

• God did not have to be gracious? Yes, He did. He cannot be other than who and what He is.
• God did not have to act with grace? Again, yes, He did and, again, He cannot be other than who and what He is.
• God did not have to act with grace to save? Yes, He did, because salvation by grace through faith is one of the purposes for which He created creation.
• Grace is unmerited favor; we do not deserve God's grace or His salvation by grace. That is a red herring. The clay's deserving or not deserving is irrelevant. God makes noble and ignoble devices out of the clay as He so chooses, and some are made noble and some are made ignoble because that is the will and purpose of God to do so and the clay has no say in the matter. Thinking the clay deserves is a red herring - evidence of the problem to be solved (sin asserted as self-centeredness, selfishness, self-importance, and entitlement).

Thinking God has been something or done something or acting in any way not consistent with Himself is misguided, and evidence the substance and depth of His omni-attributes isn't as well grasped as it should be.

• God created creation.
• God created creation with purpose, and objectives and goals in His mind, before a single word of creation was spoken into existence.
• God designed various structures into creation. Knowing both the angelic host and humanity would sin, God designed completely different purposes for each group and multiple outcomes. It was all decided before a single atom of creation was created. The angels who did not keep their proper abode have been held in bonds of eternal darkness awaiting their sentencing. Humans, alternatively, have been provided two alternatives, the exact same death and destruction, or the prospect of salvation from sin. The former group does not have that option and that option does/does not exist solely by God's divine sovereign providence and all of it is - not one part or another - is a reflection of His ontology and character. He is a God of grace and God is just. He is glorified when He metes out the just recompense for disobedience, and He is glorified when He does not do so by grace. Not one element of it is happenstance or whim. The matter of "deserving" has nothing to do with it.
• Grace is not the antithesis of justice; it is not the absence of justice. Grace is just as much a part of God's righteous nature and character as justness; grace is justice. This is evidenced in every single law in which mercy is commanded (implicitly or explicitly). God chooses; He and He alone decides how He will be just, whether gracious and merciful or punitive and wrathful. The exact same God who is love is also the exact same God who is vengeful. All of it foreknown willfully and with purpose, and as a reflection of God and His nature.
• All creation testifies to the existence of God and His divine power, and the witness it bears includes the moral and spiritual nature of God.
• Had God not been gracious no one would be saved. Logically, that would mean Jesus is not and could not be foreknown as the perfect sacrifice. Jesus cannot ontologically be the resurrection and the life. Jesus cannot be the way and the truth, the only one through whom anyone can come to God. If these attributes are conditional, then they are not immutable, and neither is Jesus.
• Grace is action. Grace is forceful action, deliberate, forceful action. Grace is not the antithesis of inaction. The same is true in reverse of justness.

I hope the point is understood (I could continue). Grace is not a contingency. Every particle of creation is imbued with grace simply because creating is an act of grace (and justness). It is true we do not deserve grace (or the salvation that comes by grace) but deserving has nothing to do with God's decision(s) and action to save. All of my Reformed brethren should take note lest TULIP's "U" be compromised, and you render yourself inconsistent.











Applicable scripture provided upon request.
.

 

[Josheb]

God is the first cause and therefore there is no WHY when referring to God as there is nothing to affect Him.

... or maybe He flips a coin

Thank you, but the question was asked of one specific poster based on something specific that poster posted and not on anything anyone else posted. Please be patient and let that poster answer the question asked for himself and in his own words, addressing his own premise.

 

[fastfredy0]

Thank you, but the question was asked of one specific poster based on something specific that poster posted and not on anything anyone else posted. Please be patient and let that poster answer the question asked for himself and in his own words, addressing his own premise.

I just liked the question. It's a deep one. Everyone is free to ignore, absorb or giggle at whatever I say at their leisure.

 

[Eleanor]

becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ and his merits.

Who made that rule?

 

[Soyeong]

You said we don't have to be perfect. So, as long as I buy a homeless person food or give them money, whenever I feel like it, to score some points, I am golden.​

If someone helps a homeless person, then the significance of that action is that they are expressing faith in in the nature of God to correctly guide them in how to rightly live rather than leaning on their own understanding, not that they are earning points as a wage.

Romans 10:1-4

They have zeal for God, Soyeong, but not according to knowledge of the Promise in the Gospel, that Christ is the end of the Law for Righteousness to everyone who believes.​

In Genesis 18:19, God's way is the way in which He experiences the expression of His nature such as by doing righteousness and justice, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus through having the experience of expressing His nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose Jesus from the dead (Titus 2:14).

Becoming zealous for doing good works is the way believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), but the problem was that they misunderstood the purpose of obeying that law as being about earning a wage rather than about having faith in the nature of God. Nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending God's law, but just the opposite. The correct solution to incorrectly obeying God's law is to start obeying it correctly, not to reject it.

You are conflating Law into Gospel and Gospel into Law, which is no gospel at all. Why? because it is no longer by Grace, but works.​

According to Matthew 4:15-23, repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the Gospel that Jesus taught, so I am not conflating anything, but rather you are trying to separate repentance from His Gospel, which is no gospel at all.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works don't to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for many other reasons that are compatible with grace, especially because God's law was never given as a way to earn our righteousness as a wage, which is why there are many verses that connect grace with God being gracious to us by teaching us to do works (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). You would be correct to respond to me with Romans 11:6 if I had been saying that we need to earn our righteousness as the result of obeying God's law, but I have repeatedly spoke against that position.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

God's law was never give as a way to earn our inheritance of the promise as a wage, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the goal for which it was given or that the content of the promise is not in regard to keeping His law (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, Deuteronomy 30:16). .

I am talking about how a sinner is justified before God.

You keep bringing up what we do, instead of the proclamation of the Gospel​

I cited many verses that show that works are the way to have faith. For example, in Hebrews 11, it shows examples of justifying faith and every example of faith is an example of works. For instance, in Hebrew 11:17, Abraham was acting by faith when he offered Isaac, and in James 2:21-24, it says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage (Romans 4:1-5). I keep proclaiming the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23, so a sinner can repent and return to obedience to God's law and be justified by that faith in Christ, but not insofar as their obedience to it is earning a wage.

This is precisely what Paul is preaching about in the sweet waters of the Gospel. That God justifies the "UNGODLY", does it say "GODLY" for those who practice righteousness first?​

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

Please, Soyeong, explain this passage for me. Does Paul say that God justifies those who practice righteousness? Or does Paul say that the one who believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY (Key Word), his FAITH is counted as righteousness?​

Becoming righteous means becoming someone who practices righteousness, so it is like you are saying that we can become a married bachelor. You should be quicker to think that you must have misunderstood Paul rather than think it is a good idea to promote something that is self-contradictory. Paul saying that saying that we become righteous through faith apart from needing to practice righteousness first, not denying the reality of what we are becoming when we become righteous.

When the ungodly repent of their ungodliness by returning to obedience to God's law they are expressing justifying faith. The ungodly are not required to do a certain amount of righteous works first before God will justify them as though it could be earned as a wage. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so becoming someone who is justified in Christ through faith means becoming someone walks in the same way he walked in obedience to God's law through faith.

Again confusing obedient/disobedient faith with Faith Alone​

I've cited many verses that show that obedience to God alone is the way to have faith in Him alone to guide us in how to rightly live. Having faith in what God has instructed is not doing something other than having faith in God. The Bible does not specifically state that we are justified by faith alone, but it does specifically state that we are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24). Still, there can be a sense that we are justified by faith alone insofar as their are no works that we are to do first before we can become justified, but not insofar as becoming justified is apart from becoming someone who does good works in obedience to God's law, but rather the faith by which we are justified upholds our need to obey it (Romans 3:31).

Calvin​

It should not make sense to interpret Romans 10:5-8 as contrasting what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 with what he said in Deuteronomy 30:15-16, so the transition at the start of Romans 10:6 can and should be translated as "Moreover" rather than as "But". It would be contradictory for him to contrast faith in God with faith in what He has instructed. We should not ignore the point that Paul was making in Romans 10:5-8 by referring to Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the world of faith that we proclaim when we interpret Romans 10:4 and 10:9-10 because Paul was saying that God's law is a central part of the Gospel message in accordance with the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23, not making a distinction between Law and Gospel. Again, Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

It's good that he recognized that the law has the promise and in Galatians 3:16-19, a newer covenant does not abolish the promise of an older covenant that has already been ratified. Romans 7:10 should not be interpreted as contradicting Leviticus 18:5, but rather in Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that God's law is good and that it is not what was good that brought death to him. In Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's law, in Romans 2:6-7, eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal life for those who obey him, and in Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life, and so forth, so Calvin's conclusion is not correct. It is contradictory to consider relying on what God has instructed to be relying on ourselves.

 

[Soyeong]

Who made that rule?

Titus 2:14.

 

[Eleanor]

Titus 2:14.

Actually, it is the result of believing, not the way to believe.

This incorrect order, reversing cause and result, characterizes your thinking.