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A question on grace.

On the contrary, the price having been paid was absolutely necessary for our forgiveness, because God is just. Your view would have God forgiving us, without his justice having been satisfied.
Yes, unfortunately I hear so many saying God can just forget about sin, as if it's not a big deal.
 
To be fair, I think he meant the Law was referring to the Mosaic law, the 600+ laws of Judaism. That is what the NT refers to as the Law.

Doug
It is about the Moral Law. But we cannot fulfill this by any human efforts in the realm of Justification.
 
On the contrary, the price having been paid was absolutely necessary for our forgiveness, because God is just. Your view would have God forgiving us, without his justice having been satisfied.
Justice satisfied doesn’t mean the debt is paid, just that the needs of God have been satisfied. The atonement reconciles God to the world so that he may now legally turn toward man in grace.

God doesn’t need to be repaid, he needs nothing. The debt is one of relationship, not a materialistic sum capable of being restored. Relationship reconciliation is always in the hands of the offended party. God wanted reconciliation with his creation, and sent his Son to be the means of this reconciliation and whoever believes in him will be saved. God did all this so that we “would seek him, perhaps reach out to him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

Any of us may find him and be reconciled. Our status is unreconciled but reaching out to him in faith means will will be reconciled.
That is why we are given the ministry of reconciliation! “Be reconciled to God!” (2 Cor 5:16-21)

Doug
 
Did you see the Rare Super Blue Moon? Saturn looked awe taking with it's 4 moons. M31 is also breath taking.
No, it was cloud covered here. Did you get pictures?

Doug
 
Yes, unfortunately I hear so many saying God can just forget about sin, as if it's not a big deal.
Who says anything about forgetting about sin?

Doug
 
Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned as a wage, so grace is incompatible with works done for that reason, however works can be done for any number of other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14).
No Sir, not for the ungodly. Paul makes a very explicit comparison between the Free Gift and self-works. God's Grace cannot be earned or merited by anything we do (human efforts). The problem in attempting to fulfill the Law with our works; is the heart, our works are filthy and contaminated with sin. The Law does not provide life to sinners! It only condemns and bring knowledge of sin, correct?

"The little word, "law," you must not take here in human fashion, as a teaching about what works are to be done or not done. That is the way it is with human laws---the law is fulfilled by works, even though there is no heart in them.

But God judges according to what is at the bottom of the heart, and for this reason, His law makes demands on the inmost heart and cannot be satisfied with works, but rather punishes works that are done otherwise than from the bottom of the heart, as hypocrisy and lies. Hence all men are called liars, in Psalm 116:11, for this reason no one keeps or can keep God's law from the bottom of the heart, for everyone finds in himself displeasure in what is good and pleasure in what is bad. If, then, there is no willing pleasure in the good, then the inmost heart is not set on the law of God, then there is surely sin, and God's wrath is deserved, even though outwardly there seems to be many good works and an honorable life.

Paul illustrates that the Jews too are all sinners, and that the doers of the law are righteous before God. He means by this that no one is, in his works, a doer of the law; on the contrary, he speaks to them thus, "Thou teachest not to commit adultery, bear false witness, steal, covet, idolatry, etc., and "Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself, because thou doest the same thing that thou judgest"; as if to say, "You live a fine outward life in the works of the law, and judge those who do not so live, and know how to teach everyone; you see the splinter in the other's eye, but of the beam in your own eye you are not aware."---Luther​



In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before Him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Moreover this means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace, and in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, which means that it is a covenant of works. Grace alone apart from works fundamentally misunderstands how God is gracious to us and is not grace at all.
No sir, the Mosaic Covenant is not a Covenant of Grace, is it a Covenant of Works. And this Covenant of Works does not bring Life but Death. The Covenant of Grace is God who Promises to being Life to the ungodly in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.

The essence of the covenant of grace is the same throughout the Old and New Testaments—God saves sinners by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But its historical administration has varied by time and place. For example, the covenant of grace widened from the Old Testament to the New Testament, as it was administered first with small families (e.g., the families of Noah and Abram), then with the nation of Israel, but now with the church, which is made up of people "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev. 5:9). Also, it was administered in the Old Testament through what the New Testament authors describe as "types" and "shadows" (Heb. 8:5; 10:1), such as sacrifices, the priesthood, and the temple, all of which pointed to their reality, Jesus Christ (e.g., Col. 2:17).

The Reformed creeds and confessions express the continuity of God's covenant of grace despite its many historical variations. For instance, the Heidelberg Catechism says: "… God himself first revealed [it] in Paradise, [and] afterwards [it was] proclaimed by the holy Patriarchs and Prophets, and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law, and finally fulfilled in his well-beloved Son" (Q&A 19). This means the Bible is one story of the gospel, which God has spoken "in many times and in many ways" (Heb. 1:1), whether in Paradise to Adam; during the days of the patriarchs, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses; through the ministry of the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Joel; or through the ceremonies of the Levitical sacrifices. All of this came to fruition in Jesus Christ.

Likewise, while recognizing the variations in the administration of the covenant of grace between the Old and New Testaments, the Westminster Confession of Faith affirms the continuity of the covenant in the promise of Christ and His fulfillment of it:
This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law and in the time of the gospel: under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come, which were for that time sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.​
Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations. (7.5-6)​
When our Lord Jesus Christ was born, lived, died, and was raised from the grave, the covenant of grace reached its zenith in what the Bible calls "the new covenant" (Jer. 31:31; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:15; 12:24). Under the covenant of grace, Christ accomplished what Adam failed to do in the covenant of works, so we receive grace:​

Man's work faileth, Christ's availeth;
He is all our righteousness;
He, our Savior, has forever
Set us free from dire distress.
Through His merit we inherit
Light and peace and happiness.
 
Justice satisfied doesn’t mean the debt is paid, just that the needs of God have been satisfied. The atonement reconciles God to the world so that he may now legally turn toward man in grace.

God doesn’t need to be repaid, he needs nothing. The debt is one of relationship, not a materialistic sum capable of being restored. Relationship reconciliation is always in the hands of the offended party. God wanted reconciliation with his creation, and sent his Son to be the means of this reconciliation and whoever believes in him will be saved. God did all this so that we “would seek him, perhaps reach out to him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

Any of us may find him and be reconciled. Our status is unreconciled but reaching out to him in faith means will will be reconciled.
That is why we are given the ministry of reconciliation! “Be reconciled to God!” (2 Cor 5:16-21)

Doug
Reconciliation was accomplished on the cross; it is not accomplished by man generating his own fleshly "faith" and reaching out to God!!

The ministry of reconciliation is to declare that God has reconciled his people to himself, on the cross, because Jesus paid the price for our sins and rose from the dead for our justification.

2 Cor. 5:18,19 (KJV)
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

It has been accomplished! God reconciled (past tense) the world (i.e. Jews and Gentiles, without reference to how many) to himself in Christ, on the cross. To declare this is the ministry of reconciliation!

2 Cor. 5:20,21 (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The word translated "reconciled" (in bold above) is imperative mood, but passive voice. This is very difficult to render in English, but would mean something like, "...be in a condition in which you have been reconciled (not by yourself) to God.". This is obviously not something that we can do, so why is it imperative mood? The answer is that we should be reconciled to God, even though we can't do it.
 
No Sir, not for the ungodly. Paul makes a very explicit comparison between the Free Gift and self-works. God's Grace cannot be earned or merited by anything we do (human efforts). The problem in attempting to fulfill the Law with our works; is the heart, our works are filthy and contaminated with sin.​
Works can be done for any number of reasons other than in order to earn a wage and the content of a free gifts can involve the experience doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift as a wage.

Self-works do not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to consider relying on what God has instructed to be self-works. Anyone can fulfill the law without too much difficulty, so that is not a problem with fulfilling it. God is not a filthy God who instruct filthy works, but rather the works that He instructs are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8)

The Law does not provide life to sinners! It only condemns and bring knowledge of sin, correct?​
Incorrect. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience to brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it inly condemns those who refuse to submit to it. While God's law brings knowledge of sin, that is neither its primary nor its only purpose.


"The little word, "law," you must not take here in human fashion, as a teaching about what works are to be done or not done. That is the way it is with human laws---the law is fulfilled by works, even though there is no heart in them.

But God judges according to what is at the bottom of the heart, and for this reason, His law makes demands on the inmost heart and cannot be satisfied with works, but rather punishes works that are done otherwise than from the bottom of the heart, as hypocrisy and lies. Hence all men are called liars, in Psalm 116:11, for this reason no one keeps or can keep God's law from the bottom of the heart, for everyone finds in himself displeasure in what is good and pleasure in what is bad. If, then, there is no willing pleasure in the good, then the inmost heart is not set on the law of God, then there is surely sin, and God's wrath is deserved, even though outwardly there seems to be many good works and an honorable life.​
If there is no heart in them, then the law is not fulfilled. There is no sense in thinking that what God has instructed is not in accordance with how He judges.

Paul illustrates that the Jews too are all sinners, and that the doers of the law are righteous before God. He means by this that no one is, in his works, a doer of the law; on the contrary, he speaks to them thus, "Thou teachest not to commit adultery, bear false witness, steal, covet, idolatry, etc., and "Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself, because thou doest the same thing that thou judgest"; as if to say, "You live a fine outward life in the works of the law, and judge those who do not so live, and know how to teach everyone; you see the splinter in the other's eye, but of the beam in your own eye you are not aware."---Luther​
The Bible describes many people as righteous and as doers of the law, so Paul was deny this obvious reality, but rather he was specifically addressing people who had been acting hypercritically.

No sir, the Mosaic Covenant is not a Covenant of Grace, is it a Covenant of Works. And this Covenant of Works does not bring Life but Death. The Covenant of Grace is God who Promises to being Life to the ungodly in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.
Do you then deny the truth of Psalms 119:29-30 and Exodus 33:13? Do you deny the truth of many verses that say that obedience brings life and that it is refusing to obey that brings death? God is not an unloving Father who gave His people to bring death to His children, but rather His law was give for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God's law is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that God's word made flesh brings life while God's word brings death. It is also contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not have faith His word.

The essence of the covenant of grace is the same throughout the Old and New Testaments—God saves sinners by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But its historical administration has varied by time and place. For example, the covenant of grace widened from the Old Testament to the New Testament, as it was administered first with small families (e.g., the families of Noah and Abram), then with the nation of Israel, but now with the church, which is made up of people "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev. 5:9). Also, it was administered in the Old Testament through what the New Testament authors describe as "types" and "shadows" (Heb. 8:5; 10:1), such as sacrifices, the priesthood, and the temple, all of which pointed to their reality, Jesus Christ (e.g., Col. 2:17).​
Indeed, God saved us by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and teaching us to obey His law is the way that He does that (Psalms 119:29-30).


The Reformed creeds and confessions express the continuity of God's covenant of grace despite its many historical variations. For instance, the Heidelberg Catechism says: "… God himself first revealed [it] in Paradise, [and] afterwards [it was] proclaimed by the holy Patriarchs and Prophets, and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law, and finally fulfilled in his well-beloved Son" (Q&A 19). This means the Bible is one story of the gospel, which God has spoken "in many times and in many ways" (Heb. 1:1), whether in Paradise to Adam; during the days of the patriarchs, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses; through the ministry of the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Joel; or through the ceremonies of the Levitical sacrifices. All of this came to fruition in Jesus Christ.

Likewise, while recognizing the variations in the administration of the covenant of grace between the Old and New Testaments, the Westminster Confession of Faith affirms the continuity of the covenant in the promise of Christ and His fulfillment of it:



When our Lord Jesus Christ was born, lived, died, and was raised from the grave, the covenant of grace reached its zenith in what the Bible calls "the new covenant" (Jer. 31:31; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:15; 12:24). Under the covenant of grace, Christ accomplished what Adam failed to do in the covenant of works, so we receive grace:​
I agree that there is continuity in the covenants of grace and that the OT testifies about Christ, though I think that we should live in a way that that testifies about Christ through following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law rather than a way that bears false witness against him, and this is contrary to the doctrine of various dispensations.
 
Do you want their names? Will it do any good?
Since your reply was to David’s reply to me, I took this as talking about me.

Doug
 
Works can be done for any number of reasons other than in order to earn a wage and the content of a free gifts can involve the experience doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift as a wage.
Soyeong, we are talking about how is a sinner justified before a Holy God. It is through works-righteousness (legalism) or Faith-Righteousness (Imputation)?
 
Soyeong, we are talking about how is a sinner justified before a Holy God. It is through works-righteousness (legalism) or Faith-Righteousness (Imputation)?
The one and only way to become righteous is through faith. Becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness through faith. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law instructs that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous, so when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteous. In 1 John 3:7, whoever practices righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous.
 
Jerry Bridges has been a powerful influence in my thinking about grace. His 1991 book Transforming Grace produced a radical overhaul of my spirituality. I want to share a small but compelling morsel that helped shaped my concept of God's grace:
[God's grace] can neither be earned by your merit nor forfeited by your demerit. If you sometimes feel you deserve an answer to prayer or a particular blessing from God because of your hard work or sacrifice, you are living by works, not by grace. But it is just as true that if you sometimes despair of experiencing God's blessing because of your demerits—the "oughts" you should have done but didn't, or the "don'ts" you shouldn't have done but did—you are also casting aside the grace of God.​
Jerry Bridges, Transforming Grace: Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love (Colorado Springs: NavPress, 1991), p. 33.
Then what is the sin unto death?
Separation from God.


  1. 1 John 5:16

    If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
  2. 1 John 5:17
    All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Thanks
 
The one and only way to become righteous is through faith. Becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness through faith. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law instructs that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous, so when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteous. In 1 John 3:7, whoever practices righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous.
No sir, the ungodly are not righteous through the Law, nor are believers justified through their works. The basis or ground upon a sinner is justified is in Christ and his merits (his righteousness), which is received and rested upon through Faith Alone. Paul says, you are either saved by Grace or by works, but it cannot be both.
The question I keep asking you is how is a "SINNER" justified before God?

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

The works that follows justifying Faith is the result of being declared righteous in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works.

He says, "Here in it," in the gospel, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith.'" A verse taken from the book of Habakkuk in the Old Testament that is cited three times in the New Testament. As Luther would stop short and say, "What does this mean, that there's this righteousness that is by faith, and from faith to faith? What does it mean that the righteous shall live by faith?" Which again as I said was the thematic verse for the whole exposition of the gospel that Paul sets forth here in the book of Romans. And so, the lights came on for Luther. And he began to understand that what Paul was speaking of here was a righteousness that God in His grace was making available to those who would receive it passively, not those who would achieve it actively, but that would receive it by faith, and by which a person could be reconciled to a holy and righteous God.

Now there was a linguistic trick that was going on here too. And it was this, that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was—and it's the word from which we get the English word justification—the Latin word justificare. And it came from the Roman judicial system. And the term justificare is made up of the word justus, which is justice or righteousness, and the verb, the infinitive facare, which means to make. And so, the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God, through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere, make unrighteous people righteous.

But Luther was looking now at the Greek word that was in the New Testament, not the Latin word. The word dikaios, dikaiosune, which didn't mean to make righteous, but rather to regard as righteous, to count as righteous, to declare as righteous. And this was the moment of awakening for Luther. He said, "You mean, here Paul is not talking about the righteousness by which God Himself is righteous, but a righteousness that God gives freely by His grace to people who don't have righteousness of their own."

And so Luther said, "Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?" It's what he called a justitia alienum, an alien righteousness; a righteousness that belongs properly to somebody else. It's a righteousness that is extra nos, outside of us. Namely, the righteousness of Christ. And Luther said, "When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through."

What perplexes me, Soyeong, is that you emphasize practicing righteousness, but say that this righteousness doesn't need to be perfect. But doesn't Scripture state that we have to be Holy as God is Holy? You speak strongly in doing righteousness, but not a righteousness that must be perfectly holy, why is that? Does one only need to do a little righteousness to get into heaven; or maybe a little more than the next guy to get into heaven; or maybe my righteousness needs to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees to get into heaven? The Holiness that God demands is perfect holiness, Soyeong, not just contribution what you can. This is sneaky in Legalism in the back-door of the Gospel, which then is no gospel at all.​
 
Then what is the sin unto death?

Separation from God.

Thanks.

I don't think separation from God is the sin that leads to death, but rather it is death itself. As John said, there is sin NOT leading to separation from God (death).

As for the nature of this sin leading to death, it is probably apostasy. John has a persistent concern about antichrist Gnosticism. These secessionists "denied that Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh, rejected the significance of his atoning death, disobeyed God’s commands, and showed no love for true believers. By persistence in these things, people place themselves outside the sphere of forgiveness so that their sins become sins unto death" (D. A. Carson, ed., NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible; cf. Heb 6:4-8). The context of this letter involves the threat of the antichristos to the integrity of the church and the importance of adhering to the commandments, namely, to love your brother and to believe in Christ (cf. 1 John 3:23). The sin of these antichristos leads to death, for they walk in darkness, outside of Christ, and thus can't love the brethren. They don't have life in the Son. They refuse to abide in the message of the gospel (cf. John 8:24), the end-time sin of apostasy in following the teaching of the antichrists. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament agrees, saying that John is most likely referring to "those who reject Jesus Christ as God’s Son and set themselves up as antichrists."
 
No sir, the ungodly are not righteous through the Law, nor are believers justified through their works. The basis or ground upon a sinner is justified is in Christ and his merits (his righteousness), which is received and rested upon through Faith Alone. Paul says, you are either saved by Grace or by works, but it cannot be both.
The question I keep asking you is how is a "SINNER" justified before God?

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

The works that follows justifying Faith is the result of being declared righteous in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works.

He says, "Here in it," in the gospel, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith.'" A verse taken from the book of Habakkuk in the Old Testament that is cited three times in the New Testament. As Luther would stop short and say, "What does this mean, that there's this righteousness that is by faith, and from faith to faith? What does it mean that the righteous shall live by faith?" Which again as I said was the thematic verse for the whole exposition of the gospel that Paul sets forth here in the book of Romans. And so, the lights came on for Luther. And he began to understand that what Paul was speaking of here was a righteousness that God in His grace was making available to those who would receive it passively, not those who would achieve it actively, but that would receive it by faith, and by which a person could be reconciled to a holy and righteous God.

Now there was a linguistic trick that was going on here too. And it was this, that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was—and it's the word from which we get the English word justification—the Latin word justificare. And it came from the Roman judicial system. And the term justificare is made up of the word justus, which is justice or righteousness, and the verb, the infinitive facare, which means to make. And so, the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God, through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere, make unrighteous people righteous.

But Luther was looking now at the Greek word that was in the New Testament, not the Latin word. The word dikaios, dikaiosune, which didn't mean to make righteous, but rather to regard as righteous, to count as righteous, to declare as righteous. And this was the moment of awakening for Luther. He said, "You mean, here Paul is not talking about the righteousness by which God Himself is righteous, but a righteousness that God gives freely by His grace to people who don't have righteousness of their own."

And so Luther said, "Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?" It's what he called a justitia alienum, an alien righteousness; a righteousness that belongs properly to somebody else. It's a righteousness that is extra nos, outside of us. Namely, the righteousness of Christ. And Luther said, "When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through."​
There are two issues:

1.) The way to become a charter trait.

2.) What it means to become a character trait.

The only way to become a character trait is through faith that we ought to practice it and what it means to become a character trait is to become someone who practices it. For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to practice courageousness and what it means to become courageous is to become someone who practices courageousness. It not the case that if we do a certain amount of courageous works first, then that result in us becoming courageous as through it were earned as a wage, so we become courageous by faith apart from having first done courageous works. The same is true for any other character trait including righteousness.

I said that the only way to become righteous is through faith, so I agree that we do not need to do righteous works first in order to result in becoming righteous, but rather we becoming righteous through faith apart from having first done righteous works. Becoming righteous means becoming someone who practice righteousness, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather that faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31). It is not the case that righteous works result from having been first declared righteous, but rather practicing righteousness is what it means to be declared righteous.

The righteous living by faith in Habakkuk 2:4 is part of the OT, so it should be understood as living in accordance with what is commanded in the OT, especially given the context of the rest of the chapter. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. Making unrighteous people righteous means making then into people who practice righteousness in obedience to God's law. To be counted as righteous means to be counted as someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law. God's law was never given as a way of establishing our own righteousness, but rather by practicing righteousness in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's righteousness.


What perplexes me, Soyeong, is that you emphasize practicing righteousness, but say that this righteousness doesn't need to be perfect. But doesn't Scripture state that we have to be Holy as God is Holy? You speak strongly in doing righteousness, but not a righteousness that must be perfectly holy, why is that? Does one only need to do a little righteousness to get into heaven; or maybe a little more than the next guy to get into heaven; or maybe my righteousness needs to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees to get into heaven? The Holiness that God demands is perfect holiness, Soyeong, not just contribution what you can. This is sneaky in Legalism in the back-door of the Gospel, which then is no gospel at all.​
We certainly should aim to have perfect obedience, but if sin, then there is room for us to repent, so we do not need to have perfect obedience, and there is nothing in particular that we do not earn as a wage if we don't manage to have perfect obedience. It's not about the amount of righteous works that we do compared to the next guy, but about doing them through faith, and it is by that faith that we are declared righteous. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and this is not speaking about perfectly doing the Father's will, but about being someone who has the goal of being a doer of the Father's will through faith. So if there is an instance where such as person doesn't do the Father's will, then they are someone who repents and returns to doing it through faith. If we needed to have perfect holiness for some strange reason, then there would be no point in repentance. If we sinned once, then we would't be saved, but that is not in accordance with what Scripture says.
 
There are two issues:

1.) The way to become a charter trait.

2.) What it means to become a character trait.

The only way to become a character trait is through faith that we ought to practice it and what it means to become a character trait is to become someone who practices it. For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to practice courageousness and what it means to become courageous is to become someone who practices courageousness. It not the case that if we do a certain amount of courageous works first, then that result in us becoming courageous as through it were earned as a wage, so we become courageous by faith apart from having first done courageous works. The same is true for any other character trait including righteousness.
Soyeong, you keep emphasizing the works we do, but Paul is crystal clear that "if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." We are speaking about the ungodly on how they are justified before God. You talk about practicing righteousness, which is what we do once we are justified in Christ and his merits. But practicing righteousness does not save us or justify us, that sir only lies in Christ Alone and his merits. Are you conflating Gospel into Law & Law into Gospel which is no good news.

God demands perfect holiness as he is holy. That is why Christ came in the flesh, born under the Law, to fulfill the Law with his perfect Law-Keeping for us. Without this Soyeong no one would be saved, and by doing this, the broken Covenant is fulfilled by his obedience that brings Life and justification (Justice). For even the works we practice as believers are not the cause or even justify us before God.

Justification by Faith Alone is either by a righteousness that is given freely in the Gospel, or it's by our merits and efforts, meaning it's through the Law. And yes God declares the ungodly not the godly righteous on account of Christ and his works of the Law, and they are declared righteous, right then when they receive it through Faith Alone. Trusting in the promises of that he did for us in Christ.
Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

I said that the only way to become righteous is through faith, so I agree that we do not need to do righteous works first in order to result in becoming righteous, but rather we becoming righteous through faith apart from having first done righteous works. Becoming righteous means becoming someone who practice righteousness, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather that faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31). It is not the case that righteous works result from having been first declared righteous, but rather practicing righteousness is what it means to be declared righteous.
Huh??? These comments are contradictory Soyeong. The ungodly are not justified before God by their so-called righteous works or becoming righteous by practicing righteousness. Okay, let's see, what do you mean by we do not need to do righteous works first in order to result in becoming righteous? Can you define this for me? It is precisely the PROMISE God made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham that righteous works result from having been first declared righteous because of Christ and his merits.

Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

By One Man's Obedience, Soyeong, many will be made righteous. It's by his merits, not ours! Notice how Paul makes a juxtaposition between the two Adams? One has condemned us all by his One Act of Disobedience while Christ brings many to be made righteous by HIS One Act of Obedience. Understanding what Paul is saying here, is crucial in Justification of the Ungodly through Faith Alone in this Promise that God did in Christ for us! This Soyeong is the good news and the free gift of righteousness which is not earned by us by practicing righteousness.​
 
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