A problem with premillennialism

[CrowCross]

Dipsy's believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture and survived the great tribulation and wrath of the antichrist. On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

I going with Dipsy.

After the pre-trib rapture....many will receive Jesus and become saved. Some will survive the tribulation and enter into the 1000 year reign.
They will have children who will have children and so on during the 1000 year reign. Not all of the children will be believers.
Satan will be locked up then released at the end of the 1000 year reign....

 

[CrowCross]

Wrong.
We don't have any scripture that says all the descendants of Seth were called the sons of God.

jeremiah1five is a bit confused....the sons of God in Gen 6 were the fallen watcher angels.​

The flood obliterated everyone except Noah and sons and their wives.
To say that none of the line of Seth perished in the flood is an argument from silence since scripture only records the genealogy of only one of his sons or daughters, and to try and claim that no descendant of Seth perished in the flood is just naïve.
We have nothing in scripture that says all the descendants of Seth were righteous.

 

[Arial]

I going with Dipsy.

After the pre-trib rapture....many will receive Jesus and become saved. Some will survive the tribulation and enter into the 1000 year reign.
They will have children who will have children and so on during the 1000 year reign. Not all of the children will be believers.
Satan will be locked up then released at the end of the 1000 year reign....

Question:

What does 1 Thess 4:13-18 say about Christ's return?

What does 1 Cor 15:52-57 say about His return?

So where do you get this 1000 year temporal reign, in a land filled with temporal people, and sinners and unbelievers among them, from?

 

[Musicmaster]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The problem with post-tribber and pre-wrath viewpoints is that there's no comfort in the idea of those who happen to live through the numerous horrors to those points of alleged rapture will THEN be called up. One would have to be a very warped and sick puppy to think that the sadistic, masochistic mentality behind passing through such horrors, only to THEN be delivered...that's beyond rational thought that one could sit back with a manic smile and say, "Oh, that's all so comforting...I can't wait..."

Also, what's interesting is the rapture itself, which is vastly different in its overall character and imagery than that of His Second Coming. In the rapture description, we're not told He will be seated on a white horse, not yet being called Faithful and True, no judging and making war, no mention of eyes as flaming fire, no mention of many crowns on His Head, no mention of any name written yet that no man knows, no mention of His wearing a vesture dipped in blood, and no mention of His being called The Word of God.

Why? The only thing that makes sense is that His coming for His Church is in peace, not war; coming back just as He had departed, which was showering the Church with blessings and instructions, no blood on His vesture, and His feet never touching the ground at His coming for the Church.

Ahh, and then there are those who believe the Church is one of the two witnesses, which means that the Church has only 42 months to look forward to in exercising the power over the earthly elements, and even able to call down fire from Heaven, and to cause plagues upon those who will not hear the word of the Lord, but then to finally be overpowered and killed by the man of Sin...the very Church the Lord promised the Gates of Hell cannot allegedly withstand. So much for that promise, huh? That makes the Lord a fickle liar, very much like the Mormon god, and the gods of other religions that have experienced doctrinal shifts like Darwin's evolutionary model of one species morphing into another over time...and yet the God of the Bible said that He does not change...

What's also missing in that scenario of the Church having power to exercise in the first 42 months is the transformation of the very character of those people. Frankly, I can't imagine many modern, professing believers being trusted with power to wield over this world and to kill those who would do harm to them. Most would have to be forced into being more like robots to ensure they don't abuse the power given to them. So, unless there were some superimposition of a character shift in modern believers, there would certainly be abuses.

And then we have the preterists, who believe that we're already in the Millennium, meaning that scripture doesn't even say what it means through those many times it specified it being one thousand years. By allegorizing scripture to that extent, they have made it say anything they want...

Many views, all of which divide and distract the masses from arriving at the one thing that guarantees the revelation of truth to them. (1 John 2:27) This has the enemy of our souls laughing with derision and glee. He loves it when people bicker over even things like Eschatology. Failures in thinking through a belief system to see the man fallacies created by their beliefs by letting themselves think through to the logical conclusions of their beliefs along this line, that's a common malady that's most unfortunate.

And, yes, there are those who are the gleeful table-turners, thinking that by aiming the same elements back at me will avail them something meaningful. How petty and petulant!

Folks, we are ALL liars! When compared to the One, glorious Lord over all creation, we are most miserable.

One thing I do know...the Lord is true, all the time, in every thing.

Amen

MM

 

[Tambora]

jeremiah1five is a bit confused....​

Indeed.

the sons of God in Gen 6 were the fallen watcher angels.​

Agreed.

 

[Arial]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The problem with post-tribber and pre-wrath viewpoints is that there's no comfort in the idea of those who happen to live through the numerous horrors to those points of alleged rapture will THEN be called up. One would have to be a very warped and sick puppy to think that the sadistic, masochistic mentality behind passing through such horrors, only to THEN be delivered...that's beyond rational thought that one could sit back with a manic smile and say, "Oh, that's all so comforting...I can't wait..."

Also, what's interesting is the rapture itself, which is vastly different in its overall character and imagery than that of His Second Coming. In the rapture description, we're not told He will be seated on a white horse, not yet being called Faithful and True, no judging and making war, no mention of eyes as flaming fire, no mention of many crowns on His Head, no mention of any name written yet that no man knows, no mention of His wearing a vesture dipped in blood, and no mention of His being called The Word of God.

Why? The only thing that makes sense is that His coming for His Church is in peace, not war; coming back just as He had departed, which was showering the Church with blessings and instructions, no blood on His vesture, and His feet never touching the ground at His coming for the Church.

Ahh, and then there are those who believe the Church is one of the two witnesses, which means that the Church has only 42 months to look forward to in exercising the power over the earthly elements, and even able to call down fire from Heaven, and to cause plagues upon those who will not hear the word of the Lord, but then to finally be overpowered and killed by the man of Sin...the very Church the Lord promised the Gates of Hell cannot allegedly withstand. So much for that promise, huh? That makes the Lord a fickle liar, very much like the Mormon god, and the gods of other religions that have experienced doctrinal shifts like Darwin's evolutionary model of one species morphing into another over time...and yet the God of the Bible said that He does not change...

What's also missing in that scenario of the Church having power to exercise in the first 42 months is the transformation of the very character of those people. Frankly, I can't imagine many modern, professing believers being trusted with power to wield over this world and to kill those who would do harm to them. Most would have to be forced into being more like robots to ensure they don't abuse the power given to them. So, unless there were some superimposition of a character shift in modern believers, there would certainly be abuses.

And then we have the preterists, who believe that we're already in the Millennium, meaning that scripture doesn't even say what it means through those many times it specified it being one thousand years. By allegorizing scripture to that extent, they have made it say anything they want...

Many views, all of which divide and distract the masses from arriving at the one thing that guarantees the revelation of truth to them. (1 John 2:27) This has the enemy of our souls laughing with derision and glee. He loves it when people bicker over even things like Eschatology. Failures in thinking through a belief system to see the man fallacies created by their beliefs by letting themselves think through to the logical conclusions of their beliefs along this line, that's a common malady that's most unfortunate.

And, yes, there are those who are the gleeful table-turners, thinking that by aiming the same elements back at me will avail them something meaningful. How petty and petulant!

Folks, we are ALL liars! When compared to the One, glorious Lord over all creation, we are most miserable.

One thing I do know...the Lord is true, all the time, in every thing.

Amen

MM

A highly emotional tiatribe that never actually addressed the scriptures, but condemned all those who believe differently than the poster. All based on personal interpretations that are subject to being wrong, and presuppositions used to interpret eschatology of the last days. It assumes its own rightness, and rants against all else as though what is said should dare not be questioned.

Personally, I think the passages given in post #363 remove all possibility of the dispensational idea of a seven year tribulation, a secret rapture in which believers are removed from the earth, and Jesus returning a second time? to rule over all things temporal. A world where the risen, glorified King, watches over the sacrifice of bulls and rams, having already laid down His own life in our stead.

Jesus wept.

 

[Musicmaster]

A highly emotional tiatribe that never actually addressed the scriptures, but condemned all those who believe differently than the poster. All based on personal interpretations that are subject to being wrong, and presuppositions used to interpret eschatology of the last days. It assumes its own rightness, and rants against all else as though what is said should dare not be questioned.

Personally, I think the passages given in post #363 remove all possibility of the dispensational idea of a seven year tribulation, a secret rapture in which believers are removed from the earth, and Jesus returning a second time? to rule over all things temporal. A world where the risen, glorified King, watches over the sacrifice of bulls and rams, having already laid down His own life in our stead.

Jesus wept.

Yep. Another table turner. Figures.

Next?

MM

 

[CrowCross]

Question:


What does 1 Thess 4:13-18 say about Christ's return?

What does 1 Cor 15:52-57 say about His return?

They say a lot about Christ return. I'm not trying to be short in my answer but your question needs to be more directed.

So where do you get this 1000 year temporal reign, in a land filled with temporal people, and sinners and unbelievers among them, from?

Rev 20:3 is a start.

 

[CrowCross]

The problem with post-tribber and pre-wrath viewpoints is that there's no comfort in the idea of those who happen to live through the numerous horrors to those points of alleged rapture will THEN be called up. One would have to be a very warped and sick puppy to think that the sadistic, masochistic mentality behind passing through such horrors, only to THEN be delivered...that's beyond rational thought that one could sit back with a manic smile and say, "Oh, that's all so comforting...I can't wait..."

I would say t's more than that...
Jesus said it would be like the times of Noah....there was a party going on....people giving in marriage...eating and drinking...

Personally I don't think people will be partying just before a post-trib rapture. Now a pre-trib rapture, different story.

There's also the white horse issue.

 

[Arial]

They say a lot about Christ return. I'm not trying to be short in my answer but your question needs to be more directed.

What do they say happens when Christ returns?

Rev 20:3 is a start.

It mentions a thousand years but does your interpretation of the thousand years fit with what we see in the 1 Thess and 1 Cor passages?

 

[Arial]

Yep. Another table turner. Figures.

Next?

MM

Does that address the post or avoid addressing it? Like I said pages ago----that is the way dispensationalists, in my experience, end up posting when they meet anything opposed to their views.

So long.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Lord recorded it for that very reason. So that we may see the family line of Jesus through both Joseph and Mary (Matthew and Luke.) But there are those that are ignorant and choose to stay ignorant, which is why you disagree with me. It is because you don't see any worth in studying the genealogies of the people of God. Well, that is an ignorant attitude to have.

Have you searched the geanalolgy of the second born. It used to represent Born again .it begins with Able. The seed Christ unseen head, passed down some where in the middle of the geanalolgy thorough Abraham (the father of all the nations) a second born, until Jesus the Son of man. No more geanalolgy needed . . . all corrupted flesh and blood returns to the field of clay

Luke 3: 34-38 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

42 generations second birth , born again beginnings

 

[jeremiah1five]

I see worth in studying genealogy correctly, not the way you do.
The genealogy of Jesus being listed in scripture DOES NOT mean that all those listed in that genealogy were righteous.




ROFL!
I can read, write, and speak both Hebrew and Greek.
Hebrew most certainly does use adjectives as nouns in scripture.
It does it quite often.
A lot of languages do.
Case in point:

Jeremiah 9:23 ESV​

(23) Thus says the LORD: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,​

Wise, mighty, and rich are adjectives used as nouns.
That's why nearly all translations add "man" after those adjectives for clarity, because it is using the adjectives as nouns (men/people).

It is convenient for Constantinian Gentiles to ignore the following passages that spell out WHO God has Promised to save. The whole bible records Hebrew/Jewish history, Hebrew/Jewish people, Hebrew/Jewish covenants, Hebrew/Jewish Law and culture, Hebrew/Jewish ethics and Law, Hebrew/Jewish relationship with Creator God, and there is NOTHING that man can do to prevent the salvation and redemption of the people Jesus Christ came to save.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:3–5.

There it is. The salvation of the Hebrew people also known as the children of Israel. But that's not all. Saul continues declaring this truth when writing to Jewish Christians in the Galatian region.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:4–5.

Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews came to redeem the Jews and to give them eternal salvation in His Name.
Hallelu-JAH! Amen and Amen.

 

[Tambora]

The whole bible records Hebrew/Jewish history, Hebrew/Jewish people, Hebrew/Jewish covenants, Hebrew/Jewish Law and culture, Hebrew/Jewish ethics and Law, Hebrew/Jewish relationship with Creator God

This is where you fall flat.
Scripture is about Christ.
That's why so much of what OT writers wrote about Israel was interpreted by NT writers to be about Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

What do they say happens when Christ returns?

Something about the Mt. of Olives splitting....

It mentions a thousand years but does your interpretation of the thousand years fit with what we see in the 1 Thess and 1 Cor passages?

1 Thes and 1 Cor speak of the rapture....the 1000 year reign comes later on.

 

[CrowCross]

This is where you fall flat.
Scripture is about Christ.
That's why so much of what OT writers wrote about Israel was interpreted by NT writers to be about Christ.

Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22 isn't allowed to be about Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is where you fall flat.
Scripture is about Christ.
That's why so much of what OT writers wrote about Israel was interpreted by NT writers to be about Christ.

It's about Christ and His relationship with the Hebrews.
Beginning with Abram the Hebrew and ending with Jesus bar Joseph, a son of Jacob and Son of God, Son of Man and Son of God for the salvation [that] is of the Lord is a salvation [that] is of the Jews. The Old Testament records the gospel given to the children of Israel in the Mosaic Covenant with the animal sacrifices and the giving to the Law. While the Old Testament records Messiah being prepared for the people, the New Testament records the people being prepared for Messiah and it began on the Day of the Feast of Harvest with three thousand Jews being born-again and the beginning of spiritual Israel.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

There it is. The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ a gospel given through covenant and prophecy to the seed of Abraham, a people known as the children of Israel.
God never made any covenant with Gentiles. There is none. Zero, zip, nada.
There is only ONE bride betrothed to God: Israel.

 

[CrowCross]

It's about Christ and His relationship with the Hebrews.
Beginning with Abram the Hebrew and ending with Jesus bar Joseph, a son of Jacob and Son of God, Son of Man and Son of God for the salvation [that] is of the Lord is a salvation [that] is of the Jews. The Old Testament records the gospel given to the children of Israel in the Mosaic Covenant with the animal sacrifices and the giving to the Law. While the Old Testament records Messiah being prepared for the people, the New Testament records the people being prepared for Messiah and it began on the Day of the Feast of Harvest with three thousand Jews being born-again and the beginning of spiritual Israel.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

There it is. The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ a gospel given through covenant and prophecy to the seed of Abraham, a people known as the children of Israel.
God never made any covenant with Gentiles. There is none. Zero, zip, nada.
There is only ONE bride betrothed to God: Israel.

What branch of Kabbalist are you? Is it a blended with "christian zionism"?

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews came to redeem the Jews and to give them eternal salvation in His Name.
Hallelu-JAH! Amen and Amen.

Yes, His name Christ (the anointing teacher) the invisible head, that worked in Jesus the son of man dying mankind just as he works in al born from above. .

Jesus the Son of man said of his own dying flesh "it" . . . profits for zero, nada . The do not even think about it doctrine .God is not a racist. He lovingly commands us as new creatures to know no man after the flesh (what the eyes see) 2 Corinthians 5:16 )

Satan, murderer them all "off with the heads" . he hates all of human kind .

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; (gives spirit life) the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Many outward Jews (faithless according to it is as it written ) ) , they walked away, The living word was offensive (hard saying ) to them. They went looking for another Jesus (dying mankind ) as corrupted flesh could profit .

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Without the unseen Holy Spirit it is as dead as a doornail

The work of two. Our Father working with dying mankind. as a display to the world. It satisficed the just loving commandments of the father putting an end to the geanalolgy of the born again seed (Christ) passed on the second born beginning with Abel .

The idea of a living invisible Spirit doing all the work was foreign to the outward Jew that was trusting his flesh could profit for something, .anything . Faithless hope. .

Kings in Israel the pagan foundation of all the kingdoms of the world "out of sight out of mind " Like Cain. . I know not where Abel the second born seed is. The father of lies a murderer from that beginning

Samuel the apostle as a prophet declared the will of the unseen head Christ

1 Samuel 8 The faithless outward Jew had become jealous of all the surrounding pagan nation and demanded King like them . Christ our invisible head said to Samuel its me the invisible head they do not desire to worship. He gave them over to do that which they should not of desired until the time of reformation. Using that time period as a parable the signified tongue using the things seen to give us the unseen the shadows . . . . . disappeared the time of reformation had come.

It the goal of the father of lies that dying mankind believe God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

During the first century reformation when 70 foot vail that was used to represent circummsion of the first born again was rent .There was no Jewish King of kings sitting in what they called Holy of Holies and he called the "abomination of desolation". God simply does not live in dead things .He gives life to the dying.

Satan could no longer deceive all the nation that God is dying Jewish man as King of kings

God does not live in temples made with the will of dying mankind, oral traditons ( I heard it through the grapevine)

Oral traditons the source of their what they call faith. . . after a legion of fathers or Rabbis

Are you hoping the geanalolgy of the Son of man continued . If so why?

Remember, Christian the new name the father named His bride in Acts the church .

Christian. . . "residents of the heavenly city" prepared for his bride the church Named after the founder of the heavenly city and husband , ,Christ

A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations . God is not a racists' Satan the spirt of lies alone is.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What branch of Kabbalist are you? Is it a blended with "Christian Zionism"?

Don't you see my signature. I'm a BIBLICAL Christian. The bible is my rule for my life and living.
You should try being biblical. God will be pleased.