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2 Corinthians 5:17-21

Carbon said:
Well actually people can be reconciled to God because Jesus made that possible by the cross.

I think it may be worth mentioning, here, that "restore" and "reconcile" are not the same thing, even if they are related. In the clinical use of 'reconcile', such as in 'reconciling books' in accounting, it can mean something as clinical as justice satisfied after extreme variance, and in this case, it still can be used in "be reconciled to God" as the lost elect can be, but not, in the Reformed view, anyway, as restoring fellowship.

The Greek, from what I can tell, is even more specific, as 'restoring' would be the RESULT of 'reconciliation'. In this passage, "reconcile" is from the word that speaks of the specific means by which the restoration is accomplished—a mutual exchange or a change made to the unequal books. The Greek for 'restoration' is sometimes "reestablishment, restitution". There is some overlap of terms, but the sense is different.

In the first mention of the word, 'reconcile', I think it has to be referring to that clinical use, of restoring the lost elect who are grievously at odds with God, his justice being satisfied by Christ's substitution.

In the second, then, it seems to me to be addressing the lost among those to whom Paul is addressing.
I marked it "unsure" because I am not sure what you are saying either. To me---you have made a difference between "restored" and "reconciled" and then used them interchangeably without making the distinction. ("I think it has to be referring to that clinical use of restoring the lost elect who are grievously at odds with God, his justice being satisfied by Christ's substation."). That statement has no clear interpretation. It presents the possibility of both views---fellowship of the already reconciled or the forensic through faith in the work of Christ reconciliation. It is the "lost elect" combined with "are grievously at odds with God" that presents the confusion.

There is no use of the word restore in any of the passages in question. 2Cor 5:17-21

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


The "reconciled" in vs 18-19 is the same "reconciled" in v. 20. In that I agree with you that possibly that is directed at any in the audience who may not have been reconciled or---it is possible that he is simply stating how is mission is being carried out--- by appealing to unbelievers to be reconciled to God. Which is what the gospel is about.
 
I marked it "unsure" because I am not sure what you are saying either. To me---you have made a difference between "restored" and "reconciled" and then used them interchangeably without making the distinction. ("I think it has to be referring to that clinical use of restoring the lost elect who are grievously at odds with God, his justice being satisfied by Christ's substation."). That statement has no clear interpretation. It presents the possibility of both views---fellowship of the already reconciled or the forensic through faith in the work of Christ reconciliation. It is the "lost elect" combined with "are grievously at odds with God" that presents the confusion.
By that sentence, I was admitting to, and using, the overlap of meaning. In the restoration of all things to himself, the lost elect are reconciled to God, which in 2 Cor 5:17-21 the word, "reconciled", is used in describing the Gospel, (without mention of him restoring all things), and not as describing restoration of fellowship.
There is no use of the word restore in any of the passages in question. 2Cor 5:17-21

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


The "reconciled" in vs 18-19 is the same "reconciled" in v. 20. In that I agree with you that possibly that is directed at any in the audience who may not have been reconciled or---it is possible that he is simply stating how is mission is being carried out--- by appealing to unbelievers to be reconciled to God. Which is what the gospel is about.
Yes. Thus, that the letter and that passage are directed to the Corinthian church, does not mean that Paul was not addressing unbelievers within the group.
 
Perhaps you do not understand ;)
Yes, I believe you may be right there. There sure are things I don't understand.
How about you regather the thread by (re-)stating your thesis, your take on the 2 Cor. 5 text as succinctly as possible. Then everyone will know what it is you wish to discuss and all the previously occurring dross can be put aside as everyone moves forward with the discussion of 2 Cor. 5:17-21.
Well, I don't know if I want to continue with this thread. Maybe I do? But for the moment, no. I think even though I may have asked some questions wrongly, and it seems I made some accusations, which I do not believe were harmful, saying I do believe you or someone else I dont believe understood. But, it seems some have taken it that way. It wasn't meant as an attack, and I thought everyone would know that.
So, I do not believe this is a good time to continue. I feel like this has been taken the wrong way by a few of you. No doubt it will be said thats false.

The only thing I can make out of it is that the way I asked and explained caused a misunderstanding, thats very possible. Or, there is another possibility, which I tend to think more so, that a position has been challenged, and is hard to accept. That's not the first time things like that have happened.

If a couple of you would like their questions answered, or would like a better explanation? Let me know, and please give me a little time.

If anyone's feelings were hurt by this reply. Well, I dont know how else to explain it. So you have a choice: get over it, or don't and hold a grudge.
 
I feel like this has been taken the wrong way by a few of you. No doubt it will be said thats false.

And yet you won't explain what the "right way" is, even after I have asked repeatedly. That is a little odd. And which of my questions that were seeking clarification have been answered?

It's easy to take things the wrong way when the other person won't explain what the right way is.
 
And yet you won't explain what the "right way" is, even after I have asked repeatedly. That is a little odd. And which of my questions that were seeking clarification have been answered?

It's easy to take things the wrong way when the other person won't explain what the right way is.
I'm really not sure what else I need to explain.

Simply, Paul was pleading with the Corinthians (believers) to be reconciled with God. The Corinthian church was having serious issues. These people he was addressing were believers who had fallen into sin.
For Paul to say such a thing to unbelievers would make no sense; they cannot be reconciled because they (up to this point) have never been united.

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand about what I said. Perhaps you understand?

Thats is pretty much as far as it needs to go. Anyone can agree or disagree. If everyone understands what I explained, great. If not, thats fine also.
 
I'm really not sure what else I need to explain.

Simply, Paul was pleading with the Corinthians (believers) to be reconciled with God. The Corinthian church was having serious issues. These people he was addressing were believers who had fallen into sin.
For Paul to say such a thing to unbelievers would make no sense; they cannot be reconciled because they (up to this point) have never been united.
I think I follow your logic. You mean 'reconcile' as in 'return to a former state'. This is a common use for estranged parties that once were close.
I do not understand what is so difficult to understand about what I said. Perhaps you understand?

Thats is pretty much as far as it needs to go. Anyone can agree or disagree. If everyone understands what I explained, great. If not, thats fine also.
The reason I don't (so far) agree with it is that that use, or application, of "reconcile" is not the only one. As I read the passage, Paul describes the Gospel —not the reasons why the saved need to be reconciled again, but why unbelievers need to believe. At the risk of Arminians saying, "I've been saying that all along!", I repeat what we all know, that God has commanded all the lost to repent and to believe in Christ. If there are unbelievers in that congregation (and I would guess that there were several), Paul is urging them to be reconciled salvifically.

Alternately, it could, perhaps, be read that SINCE the wayward believers are reconciled to Christ to begin with—which reconciliation Paul describes according to the Gospel—that it is only reasonable that they should repent and return to Christ, as with estranged parties seeking reconciliation.

There is one curious use of the word "BE", possible, I think, in the Greek. (Definitely in Spanish, there is translated from the infinitive, "ser", to the English, "be". But the word, in the infinitive, "estar", is not at all the same; though it too is often translated as, "be", it can mean something more temporary than a usual state of being, and so, something along the lines of, "become". But even in English there is a more —what's the word—abstract?— use of "be" —roughly, to behave according to what you are.​
I asked the question of AI, since it could do a faster lookup than I could. It gave me several things I was not looking for, but on the whole —well, let me copy what I asked it, and then the salient points of its response:​
Question: ...is [Paul] talking, as it seems (since he goes on about the Gospel) about the lost being reconciled to God, or is he talking about the saved be-ing, or repenting according to their existing reconciliation. (Even in English, this sense of 'be' is all over the Bible, in my opinion. I often refer to things it says the believers must or should do, not as causal, but as a result of what they already are, by, "we do so because it is so.") Here, do you see in the Greek any special reason why this should be the use of "be", here?
AI (Chat GPT-5 mini):​
Short answer: The Greek uses the aorist passive imperative συµβαλλέσθω (actually—sorry, correction: the verb is καταλλάγητε in 2 Cor 5:20) — specifically καταλλάγητε (“be reconciled” / “be reconciled to God”) which is an aorist passive imperative of καταλλάσσω. That form and mood favor an imperative call to action (addressing hearers as agents/recipients of a change), not a descriptive statement of status; it can apply to unbelievers (command to be reconciled) or to believers as an exhortation to realize/act on a present positional reality, depending on context and assumed audience.​
Key points from the Greek grammar and sense:​
  • Verb and form: καταλλάγητε is aorist passive indicative? No — it is aorist passive imperative 2nd person plural (a command): “be reconciled” / “be reconciled to God.” Imperative requires a command or appeal.
  • Aorist nuance: Aorist imperative typically calls for a decisive, single action (bring about reconciliation), not ongoing state. It highlights the action of becoming reconciled.
  • Passive voice: The passive indicates the subject is acted upon — “let yourselves be reconciled,” i.e., God or Christ’s reconciling act is what effects it.
  • Imperative passive + aorist => invitation/command to submit to God’s reconciling work (fits an appeal to the unreconciled).
  • Context: 2 Cor 5:17–21 frames an evangelistic appeal: verses 18–19 describe God reconciling the world to himself, not counting men’s trespasses, and v.20 calls Paul and the Corinthians “ambassadors” urging reconciliation. The flow moves from theological basis (God’s reconciling work) to a mission/appeal. That grammatical imperative functions rhetorically as an evangelistic summons.
  • Audience signals: Paul addresses “we” and “you” in the letter; v.20 (“we entreat you on Christ’s behalf”) uses the same verb sense of entreaty. The imperative καταλλάγητε in that rhetorical slot most naturally targets those who still need to be reconciled — i.e., the unbelieving world, and practically any listeners not yet reconciled. It can also function as an exhortation to nominal believers to accept and live out the reconciliation offered, but grammatically it is a command to undergo reconciliation, not merely a reminder of status.
  • Alternative interpretive options: Some read it as hortatory to believers: “allow yourselves to be reconciled” — emphasizing ethical response from those already in Christ (consistent with “we are ambassadors” and ethical exhortations elsewhere). Grammatically possible, but the aorist imperative and the immediate context about God reconciling the world tip the balance toward an appeal to the unreconciled.
Conclusion (grammatical): The Greek imperative καταλλάγητε (aorist passive) points to a command/invitation to undergo reconciliation (an action/state-change), not merely a statement of existing status. Contextually it most naturally functions as an evangelistic appeal to those not yet reconciled, though it can be and has been applied pastorally to believers urged to accept and live out reconciliation.​

So, (Makesends, again, here in the 'real' (haha) conversation). It is curious to me, and a bit more affirming what I had been thinking as to whom is being addressed, that the verb translated "be reconciled" is one word, and in the aorist, (which to me favors the notion of it being a command to the unsaved, though certainly it does not preclude it being a command to those behaving as though carnal), but specially, it pleases my Calvinistic thinking, that it is a passive verb, regardless of to whom it is addressed! See? —I TOLD y'all that even Sanctification is monergistic! :cool:
 
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@John Bauer

As far as the ambassador is concerned, I think we are both close to agreement.
Contextually, yes, and in the unusual use—that of Apostolic authority. But that does not preclude the layperson from ambassadorship (IMHO) outside that context and that parameter.
 
Simply, Paul was pleading with the Corinthians (believers) to be reconciled with God. … These people he was addressing were believers who had fallen into sin.

When you say Paul is pleading with the Corinthians as believers to be reconciled to God, what is the reasoning that leads you there? Is it your belief that “be reconciled” rules out unbelievers as the referent? If so, then how do you make that case exegetically from contextually relevant Pauline texts?

You have pointed to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 but it can’t carry the weight you are saddling it with. First, it is not contextually relevant; it concerns a non-soteriological human relation, not a salvific reconciliation between God and man. Second, it’s a single verse (v. 11), which is a fatally weak basis upon which to build a controlling definition for how it is used elsewhere in Paul’s epistles, especially when those other texts (plural) share in common the same soteriological setting as 2 Corinthians 5:20.

So it’s those texts that matter here, passages in which Paul uses reconciliation language in a salvific God–human relation, where the prior state is alienation, enmity, and distance overcome through Christ (i.e., not the restoration of a previously enjoyed relationship). Interestingly, Ephesians 2:16 is relevant in that respect, since it includes both dimensions, horizontal and vertical: Jew and Gentile are reconciled in one body, and both are reconciled to God through the cross. And neither sense is the restoration of a previously enjoyed reconciled relation.

So, what is the exegetical argument that “be reconciled to God” in 2 Corinthians 5:20 is addressed to believers, not unbelievers? Is it really the non-soteriological use in a single verse that is doing all the work? If so, then I think you need to look carefully at Paul’s contextually relevant uses of reconciliation language.

For Paul to say such a thing to unbelievers would make no sense; they cannot be reconciled because they (up to this point) have never been united.

I addressed this above, but let me ask an additional question, one that should expose the doctrinal commitments required by your reading of our passage: Is it your view that believers (e.g., through sin) can remove themselves from union with Christ, thus needing restoration?

This is why I asked you in my original response (here), back when you requested that I chime in to this discussion, “Do you reject the P of the acrostic TULIP?” I could see where your reading of this text would lead. But you never answered that question—or, if you did, it wasn't obvious to me.

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand about what I said. Perhaps you understand?

What you said is not difficult to understand, but rather your reasoning. I understand clearly what you are saying, but I am resistant of the idea that you’re basing this on a single verse that isn’t contextually relevant, especially given the doctrinal fallout of that reading. You are Reformed, and none of this should be palatable to the Reformed mind.
 
Well, I don't know if I want to continue with this thread............. So, I do not believe this is a good time to continue.
If you change your mind then I think re-stating the thesis, accompanied by any succinct case you choose, would be efficacious and appreciated by all, especially if the effort is treated as a "do-over" consciously and conscientiously working to avoid all the previous errors of misunderstanding and lack of clarity. :cool:
 
I think I follow your logic. You mean 'reconcile' as in 'return to a former state'. This is a common use for estranged parties that once were close.

The reason I don't (so far) agree with it is that that use, or application, of "reconcile" is not the only one. As I read the passage, Paul describes the Gospel —not the reasons why the saved need to be reconciled again, but why unbelievers need to believe. At the risk of Arminians saying, "I've been saying that all along!", I repeat what we all know, that God has commanded all the lost to repent and to believe in Christ. If there are unbelievers in that congregation (and I would guess that there were several), Paul is urging them to be reconciled salvifically.

Alternately, it could, perhaps, be read that SINCE the wayward believers are reconciled to Christ to begin with—which reconciliation Paul describes according to the Gospel—that it is only reasonable that they should repent and return to Christ, as with estranged parties seeking reconciliation.

There is one curious use of the word "BE", possible, I think, in the Greek. (Definitely in Spanish, there is translated from the infinitive, "ser", to the English, "be". But the word, in the infinitive, "estar", is not at all the same; though it too is often translated as, "be", it can mean something more temporary than a usual state of being, and so, something along the lines of, "become". But even in English there is a more —what's the word—abstract?— use of "be" —roughly, to behave according to what you are.​
I asked the question of AI, since it could do a faster lookup than I could. It gave me several things I was not looking for, but on the whole —well, let me copy what I asked it, and then the salient points of its response:​
Question: ...is [Paul] talking, as it seems (since he goes on about the Gospel) about the lost being reconciled to God, or is he talking about the saved be-ing, or repenting according to their existing reconciliation. (Even in English, this sense of 'be' is all over the Bible, in my opinion. I often refer to things it says the believers must or should do, not as causal, but as a result of what they already are, by, "we do so because it is so.") Here, do you see in the Greek any special reason why this should be the use of "be", here?
AI (Chat GPT-5 mini):​
Short answer: The Greek uses the aorist passive imperative συµβαλλέσθω (actually—sorry, correction: the verb is καταλλάγητε in 2 Cor 5:20) — specifically καταλλάγητε (“be reconciled” / “be reconciled to God”) which is an aorist passive imperative of καταλλάσσω. That form and mood favor an imperative call to action (addressing hearers as agents/recipients of a change), not a descriptive statement of status; it can apply to unbelievers (command to be reconciled) or to believers as an exhortation to realize/act on a present positional reality, depending on context and assumed audience.​
Key points from the Greek grammar and sense:​
  • Verb and form: καταλλάγητε is aorist passive indicative? No — it is aorist passive imperative 2nd person plural (a command): “be reconciled” / “be reconciled to God.” Imperative requires a command or appeal.
  • Aorist nuance: Aorist imperative typically calls for a decisive, single action (bring about reconciliation), not ongoing state. It highlights the action of becoming reconciled.
  • Passive voice: The passive indicates the subject is acted upon — “let yourselves be reconciled,” i.e., God or Christ’s reconciling act is what effects it.
  • Imperative passive + aorist => invitation/command to submit to God’s reconciling work (fits an appeal to the unreconciled).
  • Context: 2 Cor 5:17–21 frames an evangelistic appeal: verses 18–19 describe God reconciling the world to himself, not counting men’s trespasses, and v.20 calls Paul and the Corinthians “ambassadors” urging reconciliation. The flow moves from theological basis (God’s reconciling work) to a mission/appeal. That grammatical imperative functions rhetorically as an evangelistic summons.
  • Audience signals: Paul addresses “we” and “you” in the letter; v.20 (“we entreat you on Christ’s behalf”) uses the same verb sense of entreaty. The imperative καταλλάγητε in that rhetorical slot most naturally targets those who still need to be reconciled — i.e., the unbelieving world, and practically any listeners not yet reconciled. It can also function as an exhortation to nominal believers to accept and live out the reconciliation offered, but grammatically it is a command to undergo reconciliation, not merely a reminder of status.
  • Alternative interpretive options: Some read it as hortatory to believers: “allow yourselves to be reconciled” — emphasizing ethical response from those already in Christ (consistent with “we are ambassadors” and ethical exhortations elsewhere). Grammatically possible, but the aorist imperative and the immediate context about God reconciling the world tip the balance toward an appeal to the unreconciled.
Conclusion (grammatical): The Greek imperative καταλλάγητε (aorist passive) points to a command/invitation to undergo reconciliation (an action/state-change), not merely a statement of existing status. Contextually it most naturally functions as an evangelistic appeal to those not yet reconciled, though it can be and has been applied pastorally to believers urged to accept and live out reconciliation.​

So, (Makesends, again, here in the 'real' (haha) conversation). It is curious to me, and a bit more affirming what I had been thinking as to whom is being addressed, that the verb translated "be reconciled" is one word, and in the aorist, (which to me favors the notion of it being a command to the unsaved, though certainly it does not preclude it being a command to those behaving as though carnal), but specially, it pleases my Calvinistic thinking, that it is a passive verb, regardless of to whom it is addressed! See? —I TOLD y'all that even Sanctification is monergistic! :cool:
Thanks for the reply
 
When you say Paul is pleading with the Corinthians as believers to be reconciled to God, what is the reasoning that leads you there? Is it your belief that “be reconciled” rules out unbelievers as the referent?
In the context, yes, I believe that to be so.
If so, then how do you make that case exegetically from contextually relevant Pauline texts?
Like I said it has a broader meaning as well.
 
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