• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21

Okay, got ya. Do you understand my explanation?
Yes.

I am perceiving the use of "reconciliation" as this:

Romans 5:10

For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

You are perceiving it like this: 1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
Yes.

I am perceiving the use of "reconciliation" as this:

Romans 5:10

For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
The core mission of Jesus was to reconcile humanity to God.
Before anyone could be saved, divine justice had to be satisfied. Scripture describes the sin-bearing sacrifice of Christ as reconciliation, because that is exactly what it is. God's anger towards us is removed by Christs propitiuarty sacrifice And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2.
All things are restored in Christ.
And by the way, the apostles are the ambassadors as if Christ were here himself.

We are saved by his life because he is our life. Well, the elect that is.

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3:1-4.
You are perceiving it like this: 1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Well, as you said above and as I explained. Assuming one is saved and falls away into a sinful life, 1 John 1:9 is where its at.

Once we do this, God is faithful and just and restores (reconciles) and forgives us unto all righteousness.
 
Last edited:
The core mission of Jesus was to reconcile humanity to God.
Before anyone could be saved, divine justice had to be satisfied. Scripture describes the sin-bearing sacrifice of Christ as reconciliation, because that is exactly what it is. God's anger towards us is removed by Christs propitiuarty sacrifice And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2.
All things are restored in Christ.
And by the way, the apostles are the ambassadors as if Christ were here himself.

We are saved by his life because he is our life. Well, the elect that is.

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3:1-4.

Well, as you said above and as I explained. Assuming one is saved and falls away into a sinful life, 1 John 1:9 is where its at.

Once we do this, God is faithful and just and restores (reconciles) and forgives us unto all righteousness.
If we are saved and we sin---which we do---we do not lose our forensic judicial reconciliation with God, however. It interferes with our sanctification and our prayer and our fellowship with him. When we acknowledge it in sorrow because we have offended him and ask his forgiveness and ask for the grace of sanctification, he welcomes us and forgives.
 
If we are saved and we sin---which we do---we do not lose our forensic judicial reconciliation with God, however. It interferes with our sanctification and our prayer and our fellowship with him. When we acknowledge it in sorrow because we have offended him and ask his forgiveness and ask for the grace of sanctification, he welcomes us and forgives.
Amen!
 
Yes, I agree, when the Holy Spirit applies salvation at our individual appointed time.
Here are you talking about, when the HS regenerates us? Or after death, resurrected to glory?

Carbon said:
The core mission of Jesus was to reconcile humanity to God.
Before anyone could be saved, divine justice had to be satisfied. Scripture describes the sin-bearing sacrifice of Christ as reconciliation, because that is exactly what it is. God's anger towards us is removed by Christs propitiuarty sacrifice And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2.


Haha, there's a new one for the Glossary list! (Sorry, words jump out at me).
 
Last edited:
No. Repentance is.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9.
Strictly speaking, 1 John 1:9 is not referencing repentance, though it be co-incident with confession.
 
When you repent, you dont confess your sins?
Of course, but confession of sin is not the same as repenting. It is possible that confessing sin (basically, 'agreeing with' God concerning sin), is of itself only that.
 
Of course, but confession of sin is not the same as repenting. It is possible that confessing sin (basically, 'agreeing with' God concerning sin), is of itself only that.
It is? I suppose if you haven't sinned and are just acknowledging your agreement. :unsure:
 
@Josheb @makesends @Arial
Thanks for your replies in this thread, much appreciated. I have been looking into this lately, I have asked an elder and my pastor their thoughts as well. and was quite surprised, really.
And I thought I would ask it here as well. I am still hoping to get some more replies.

For the record, not that it is divisional, I disagree with you three. My understanding still stands.

I firmly believe an ambassador is not a regular member. I also firmly believe the audience Paul was speaking (writing) to were/are believers. It wouldn't make any sense to beg a pagan to be reconciled to God, only a born-again child of God who may have drifted or fallen into a sin or sins.


Now I agree there is a visible church and an invisible church. And we do not know who the elect are, nor can we. But that is not what I am referring to. Perhaps I'm not making myself clear in what I am trying to relate.
Let me try again here:
As Paul is saying, "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20. granted there are those in the congregation who are both saved and unsaved, to those who are saved and living in sin, this applies to and are probably being convicted. To those who are not saved and therefore naturally and freely sinning, it does not apply. God knows that, we dont. It is only those who are saved and actively sinning that can be reconciled to God.


And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18-19.
My point was not to parallel one text with another, but to point to another example of how, historically, Christendom has used a text to go beyond what its immediate exegesis/context shows.
Here's another one that is usually, in Christendom, used outside of context to indicate 'opening your heart to the Christ for salvation' (or 'receiving Christ' or any of a number of such expressions of salvation, but that in context is talking about returning to fellowship. So besides being in common use like 2 Cor 5:18-19 it also in some ways parallels it.

Rev. 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."
 
It is? I suppose if you haven't sinned and are just acknowledging your agreement. :unsure:
Maybe I should have said, "Grammatically, it is not referring to the same thing." When I was in my daddy's Greek class in seminary, this very thing came up. My dad did not argue that they are not always coincident, but that grammatically, the verse only mentions the "saying with" God. To me, repentance is necessarily implied in proper confession —that is, that when one sees sin as the horror and contradiction that God sees, and so is repulsed by it— but they are grammatically referring to two different things.
 
Last edited:
Here's another one that is usually, in Christendom, used outside of context to indicate 'opening your heart to the Christ for salvation' (or 'receiving Christ' or any of a number of such expressions of salvation, but that in context is talking about returning to fellowship. So besides being in common use like 2 Cor 5:18-19 it also in some ways parallels it.

Rev. 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."
Yes, and that is to the church (believers) as well. So many believe that it is a call of the gospel to the lost.
 
@John Bauer, I'm interested in your understanding of this topic. Thanks.

Are you sure you want me to chime in? I’ve got some pretty ballsy convictions and opinions.

1. “Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?”

In context, it is Paul and those laboring with him in that apostolic ministry, the ones to whom God has given the ministry and message of reconciliation and through whom God is making his plea. That is an authoritative, ministerial “we,” not a suggestion that “all Christians are ambassadors” in the same sense.

2. “Who are ambassadors for Christ?”

The “we” are the ones through whom God appeals; the “you” are the ones to whom that appeal is addressed. That alone rules out any reduction of the verse into “all Christians are ambassadors.” Paul is distinguishing heralds from hearers. It is an apostolic appeal directed toward “the church of God that is in Corinth” (2 Cor. 1:1).

3. "Who is the ‘you’ in verse 20?”

So the “you” in verse 20 is “the church of God that is in Corinth,” which includes both believers and unbelievers, contrary to what you said (source) (source). Paul has a tendency to address entire congregations as churches of God, or saints, or those sanctified in Christ, and yet within those same assemblies he warns that some are false, unregenerate, self-deceived, or under judgment. So, visible churches consist of believers and unbelievers alike (whereas the invisible church consists of only the elect united to Christ).

“Where does Scripture teach that unbelievers (or reprobate) are to be reconciled to God? That just doesn’t make sense.”

Well, now don’t forget, it is not just the reprobate who are unbelievers. Unregenerate elect are also unbelievers, and by the grace of God they often do respond to such a call.

“The call to be reconciled doesn’t apply to those who are not saved.”

Why not? Are they not the very ones who need to be reconciled?

Note 1: Similarly, Acts 8 presents Simon Magus as baptized and incorporated into the church’s outward life, yet Peter tells him his heart is not right before God and that he remains in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity (Acts 8:13, 21–23). So here is a concrete narrative instance of a baptized church member who is not regenerate. Thus we are able to reckon with apostolic statements about defections from within the church; they went out from us, but they were not of us (1 John 2:19).

Note 2: Notice, too, that “be reconciled to God” does not require that the Corinthians were pagans. Paul can address a visible church according to its covenantal profession while still pressing the divine demand that they stand rightly before God. That is neither strange nor uncommon in the epistles.

I can also understand and accept the fact that ambassadors are also today's pastors and elders, …

These are the closest analogs, perhaps, but I don’t believe there remains in the church an office identical to the ambassadorial role exercised by Paul and his ministerial associates. It belongs to the foundational, apostolic ministry, not to a perpetually continuing office under that same authority.

[I don’t think Paul would call unbelievers to be reconciled to God] because unbelievers were never united with Christ. I thought that would be obvious.

If unbelievers are not united to Christ, then they need to be reconciled. It is therefore right and sensible that Paul should call them to be reconciled—because they are not, and they need to be. Believers don’t need to be reconciled, for they already are.

Attention should be paid to the fact that the verb is passive: καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ (katallagēte tō theō). The point is not “reconcile yourselves,” but rather “be reconciled”—that is, come into the state of peace with God that he has himself accomplished and now proclaims in Christ.

That imperative must be read in immediate context. In vv. 18-19, reconciliation is first God’s act: “All these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ,” and who in Christ was “not counting people's trespasses against them.” Then, in v. 20, Paul turns from declaration to summons. Because God has accomplished reconciliation objectively in Christ and now announces it through apostolic ministry, the hearers are commanded to receive that reconciling grace by faith. The imperative is thus grounded in the indicative. Paul is saying, “Embrace by faith the peace God that has established in the crucified and risen Christ.” Although a command, it is a gospel command. It is not law in a “do this and live” sense; it is the divine summons to lay hold of what God has done in Christ.

And look at v. 21: “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.” Verse 20 cannot mean that reconciliation is achieved by human movement toward God, because v. 21 locates its ground wholly in substitution. Christ is made sin for us; believers become God’s righteousness in him. Therefore the imperative to be reconciled means to be united to Christ by faith, and so enter into the reconciled relation to God purchased by his sin-bearing death.

(So there is also a covenantal and forensic dimension here that presupposes objective enmity under divine judgment because of sin. Sinners are reconciled to God because God has dealt justly and definitively with sin in Christ.)

It is passive because reconciliation is God’s work, not ours; it is imperative because that reconciling work must be personally embraced; and it is grounded wholly in substitutionary atonement, not in human contribution.

Believing is what is required of a lost sinner to be saved.

Wait, you think there is something lost sinners must DO to be saved?

Believing in Christ is the fruit of salvation, not a condition thereof.

Well, believing is a sign of salvation, is it not?

There you go, that’s better.

Confessing our sins and repenting is what is required for a backslidden saint to be reconciled to God.

Are not saints already reconciled to God and eternally secure? Do you reject the P of the acrostic TULIP? Are faith and repentance God’s gift to us, or our gift to him? And so on.
 
For the record, not that it is divisional, I disagree with you three.
I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with something not adequately understood. Comments were asserted and inquires asked that evidence misunderstandings of my posts. For example, I rhetorically asked what reconciliation did the already reconciled need, thereby indicating their already-saved nature and I explicitly identified the Corinthians as the Church, yet I was nonetheless asked if I understood they were saved. I explained the "layers" of problems and need for reconciliation and the response was, "What do you mean by layers of reconciliation? I'm not following."

Well...... if you are not following then how can you disagree?

There's an uncomfortable implication here. If the posts cannot be understood, then how can the scriptures be understood?
My understanding still stands. I firmly believe an ambassador is not a regular member. I also firmly believe the audience Paul was speaking (writing) to were/are believers. It wouldn't make any sense to beg a pagan to be reconciled to God, only a born-again child of God who may have drifted or fallen into a sin or sins.
And I said the exact same things in my posts.

Paul was an ambassador for Christ writing to a congregation of Christians who'd been disobedience in many ways (committing acts of disobedience, not holding each other accountable, and not restoring each other to faithfulness). However, the purpose of reconciliation of the saved is to make them all able to do the very things Paul was writing about in his role of ambassador for Christ. The Corinthians were to become unified in the faith, mature, and able to withstand.

Paul once wrote to say he persevered to win a crown he had not yet attained. That is uncannily like what the church in Smyrna was told in Revelation.

Revelation 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

All of the seven churches were told to overcome and, if doing so, they would receive rewards consistent with royalty. it was asked how everyone could be an ambassador and what good would the title be if everyone was an ambassador. What good is a crown if everyone has one? An apostle's job is to work himself out of a job 😁. Due to the work of an apostle...

...we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Ephesians 2:19-22
So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

What need for an apostle does a perfectly fitted holy temple in which God's Spirit dwells perfectly have? Corinth was not a perfectly fitted building.

Matthew 5:1, 13-16
You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Ambassadors. The entire "city" a light to the world, the entire city an ambassador for Christ giving light to all in the house. On that occasion Jesus was not speaking only to the twelve.




Had a respectful conversation persisted we'd have probably worked out any real and perceived differences.
 
In other words, give up that sinful life you are living, things like @Josheb mentions in post #3 about the Corinthian Christians.
I stated the Corinthian readers were the Church, they had already been (salvifically) reconciled to God, and Paul's words were applicable to "all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein." Nowhere did I ever state, nor remotely imply the Corinthians were not Christians. Nor did I ever post any non-Christian could give up the sinful life.

Please do not use my posts if they are going to be misrepresented.
 
Back
Top