2 Corinthians 5:17-21

[Josheb]

I did'nt say you said the audience was pagans. I was just trying to make an example. Perhaps its in the way I said it you misunderstood?

Yep. If I never thought or said the Corinthians were pagans, why would I "NOW" see they were not?

​

Do you now see that this is not teaching that those of the audience in 2 Corinthians are pagans?

I always saw the text is not teaching they are pagans and stated that fact in at least two different ways in my op-reply (they are the Church, and those reconciled to God were being reconciled because of their post conversion conduct). The question was non sequitur.

....I respect your knowledge and opinion.

Comments like, "You're confusing," "Maybe you're not understanding...," "You're blending..." and neglecting and misrepresenting what was posted prove otherwise. Those examples are disrespectful, not respectful.

• Is there any confusion...?
• Perhaps I have not made myself sufficiently clear....
• I see the "reconciled are being reconciled." Could I get some clarification on that because the Corinthians are already saved and I don't want to assume that's not understood.
• How are salvation and reconciliation understood? Are there any distinctions?

Those are examples of both respect and functional discourse. Let me know you'll make the effort and I'll re-engage the thread.

 

[Arial]

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling 3 the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5.

3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?

1. In the context, Paul and his ministry companions ---preaching ministers formally entrusted with proclaiming reconciliation.

2.But I believe it also has a broader theological synthesis, not from the word itself. The context relates to the time in which it was written---when the apostles were establishing churches fulfilling the commission of laying the foundation (doctrinal teaching and the knowledge given them by the Spirit) of Christ's church. In our time and since the canonization of the NT, we have that information/knowledge and are all ambassadors, not in a formal sense πρεσβεύομεν (official envoy) but as representatives of Christ. 1 Peter 2:9 (believers proclaim God' excellencies). Acts 1:8 (believers are witnesses).

3. The Corinthians. As in any congregation the audience is likely mixed. There would be true believers who might be wavering. Some are influenced by false apostles (dealt with in later chapters) and some may not be truly reconciled at all.

 

[Carbon]

Comments like, "You're confusing," "Maybe you're not understanding...," "You're blending..." and neglecting and misrepresenting what was posted prove otherwise. Those examples are disrespectful, not respectful.

• Is there any confusion...?
• Perhaps I have not made myself sufficiently clear....
• I see the "reconciled are being reconciled." Could I get some clarification on that because the Corinthians are already saved and I don't want to assume that's not understood.
• How are salvation and reconciliation understood? Are there any distinctions?

Those are examples of both respect and functional discourse. Let me know you'll make the effort and I'll re-engage the thread.

Well, I sure didn't mean any disrespect. I will indeed make the effort to choose my words correctly. You only noticed a few of my imperfections; trust me, there are many more.

 

[Carbon]

@Josheb @makesends @Arial
Thanks for your replies in this thread, much appreciated. I have been looking into this lately, I have asked an elder and my pastor their thoughts as well. and was quite surprised, really.
And I thought I would ask it here as well. I am still hoping to get some more replies.

For the record, not that it is divisional, I disagree with you three. My understanding still stands.

I firmly believe an ambassador is not a regular member. I also firmly believe the audience Paul was speaking (writing) to were/are believers. It wouldn't make any sense to beg a pagan to be reconciled to God, only a born-again child of God who may have drifted or fallen into a sin or sins.


Now I agree there is a visible church and an invisible church. And we do not know who the elect are, nor can we. But that is not what I am referring to. Perhaps I'm not making myself clear in what I am trying to relate.
Let me try again here:
As Paul is saying, "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20. granted there are those in the congregation who are both saved and unsaved, to those who are saved and living in sin, this applies to and are probably being convicted. To those who are not saved and therefore naturally and freely sinning, it does not apply. God knows that, we dont. It is only those who are saved and actively sinning that can be reconciled to God.


And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18-19.

 

[Carbon]

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:18-20.

Isn't reconciliation the central theme of Christianity? It's the restoration of mankind (in its generality) through Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. It is what Jesus came to do. And the apostles are ambassadors for Christ (as though God were pleading through them). Can Christians go out and preach the gospel? Of course.

Has anyone looked up the word ambassador in the Greek? You may notice it leaves out regular members for the most part. It speaks of elders, mature, venerated, etc...

Hoping to get more info, scripture supported hopefully.

Thanks and blessings

 

[Arial]

To those who are not saved and therefore naturally and freely sinning, it does not apply. God knows that, we dont. It is only those who are saved and actively sinning that can be reconciled to God.

Believers need to be taught from the word---the gospel. Unbelievers need to hear the gospel


Romans 10:14

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

What does Scripture mean by being reconciled to God? To be justified through faith in Christ alone for salvation. How does that happen. There are many "parts"---regeneration and so on---but in a nutshell, by hearing and believing. And that is what the apostles were doing---Christ and him crucified--- as they planted churches, and yes, the apostles were given that formal commission by Jesus to lay that foundation of his church. There are no more apostles. The foundation is laid. But all believers are representatives of Christ's and bear witness to him. In that they are meant to be ambassadors of Christ but representative is a better word applied to us.

So, I do not know where you get the idea that Paul, an ambassador (from your perspective or mine) would not say to unbelievers---"Be reconciled to God".

 

[Arial]

Has anyone looked up the word ambassador in the Greek?

I posted it in my post and framed the "ambassador" of the believer as theological synthesis---the process of gathering teachings from multiple passages of Scripture and combining them into a coherent doctrinal conclusion. And I gave the examples.

 

[Carbon]

Believers need to be taught from the word---the gospel. Unbelievers need to hear the gospel
Romans 10:14

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

I dont disagree.

What does Scripture mean by being reconciled to God?

In general, or are you referring to a certain passage?

To be justified through faith in Christ alone for salvation. How does that happen.

Thats two different things.

There are many "parts"---regeneration and so on---but in a nutshell, by hearing and believing.

By hearing and believing, a lost sinner is justified and reconciled? I disagree.

And that is what the apostles were doing---Christ and him crucified--- as they planted churches, and yes, the apostles were given that formal commission by Jesus to lay that foundation of his church. There are no more apostles. The foundation is laid.

Yep. Where do you see the release from apostles to common members as ambassadors? I can understand how we have been catechized to believe this way.

But all believers are representatives of Christ's and bear witness to him.

Yes, never said different.

In that they are meant to be ambassadors of Christ but representative is a better word applied to us.

Why would you say that?

So, I do not know where you get the idea that Paul, an ambassador (from your perspective or mine) would not say to unbelievers---"Be reconciled to God".

Because unbelievers were never united with Christ. I thought that would be obvious.

Believing is what is required of a lost sinner to be saved.

Confessing our sins and repenting is what is required for a backslidden saint to be reconciled to God.


I appreciate your replies, sister.

 

[Carbon]

While I agree that strictly according to the text and context it is possible to draw your conclusions, I don't think that is all that is going on there.

It is quite possible to plead with all people, "Be reconciled to God". But that possibility does not change your point. However, neither does it prove, since in this context it may only the Apostles making the plea, that only Apostles are to make that plea. Nor, even if in this context the "you" is believers, that only believers are to be pled with thus.

But only believers can be reconciled to God.

I disagree with the logic that says, since only believers can be reconciled to God, that only believers are to be pled with thus. I could argue just as logically, that believers already ARE reconciled to God, so why plead with them to be so?

Becaue they have fallen in to sin. Of course.

We do ask pagans to believe the Gospel, and to love God, and to obey him, because (if for no other reason) all 'attempts that direction' are useful to suppress the flesh and are means to common grace.

Thats not the same thing brother. You can ask pagans to believe the gospel, to love God or whatever, and unless God gives them life, they cannot. We both know that.

But as for the use you make of this passage, besides that logic on those two issues, and without spending more time in exegesis, I'd say you have a very good point as to THIS particular passage.

Thanks

Reminds me of "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." In the context, you'd have to go beyond the text alone, to demonstrate that surely Paul was using a play on words or something; the text suggests he was telling the Jailer that he would be saved from the Roman penalty for escaped prisoners, which is most likely what the Jailer feared. The fact that Christians have for centuries used it to refer to salvation from sin and sin's death, does not make it so.

Well, believing is a sign of salvation, is it not?
Consider 1 John 5:1

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[Carbon]

Oh, I forgot to mention, the "we" and the "you" are not necessarily separate entities, as language goes. That is, often the 'you' is included within, 'we', 'our' and such, specially as passive recipients of some action upon them. In this case, it is indeed Paul pleading with the Corinthians, (not with himself, of course), but to transfer the "we" ["are ambassadors"] to necessarily only the apostles is a step beyond where I will go without further study.

Okay.

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
What does Scripture mean by being reconciled to God?
Arial said:
So, I do not know where you get the idea that Paul, an ambassador (from your perspective or mine) would not say to unbelievers---"Be reconciled to God".

Because unbelievers were never united with Christ. I thought that would be obvious.

Believing is what is required of a lost sinner to be saved.

Confessing our sins and repenting is what is required for a backslidden saint to be reconciled to God.

If I'm getting you right, brother, you are considering "reconcile" to be in the same sort of sense of 'reconciling books' or 'restoring lost status', as over against being changed from death to life. The Children of Israel constantly had to be reconciled to God, but the Gentiles—no; not in the same sense, anyway. You do have a point, there.

Like me, @Arial seems to be thinking that in the larger sense, Creation (and humanity in particular) having been made pure and sinless before Adam's sin, are reconciled (one individual at a time) through Christ's death and resurrection. Creation will be restored to him, reconciled, after the horror of sin's encroachment is put to death.

I'm not saying this to resolve the OP, but to perhaps define who is saying what, and why they do.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
But as for the use you make of this passage, besides that logic on those two issues, and without spending more time in exegesis, I'd say you have a very good point as to THIS particular passage.

makesends said:
Reminds me of "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." In the context, you'd have to go beyond the text alone, to demonstrate that surely Paul was using a play on words or something; the text suggests he was telling the Jailer that he would be saved from the Roman penalty for escaped prisoners, which is most likely what the Jailer feared. The fact that Christians have for centuries used it to refer to salvation from sin and sin's death, does not make it so.

Well, believing is a sign of salvation, is it not?
Consider 1 John 5:1

Of course it is! My point was not to parallel one text with another, but to point to another example of how, historically, Christendom has used a text to go beyond what its immediate exegesis/context shows. It's not hard for me to believe that indeed Paul was referring to eternal salvation when he said, "...thou shalt be saved.", but I can't prove it by the immediate context. So with you here: You take a contextual rendering of the passage, and you extract things that Paul seems to be assuming in his argument. He is (according to your use) assuming his position of Ambassador ("we") in relation to his audience of believers ("you"); but you seem to me to be going beyond that to establish doctrine that some are Ambassadors and others are not. I can't go there, since there is a whole Bible to consider.

I understand that in the duties ("gifts") described as the functioning parts of the church, there are teachers and there are evangelists. Leaving aside for now the question of "spiritual gifts" as a valid teaching for the church nowadays, I'm saying that yes, there are different places for different people. Not all are on the "worship team", lol. Not all preach, etc. Not all spend their day on the streets and marketplaces, crying out, "Repent!", and count their spiritual success in numbers of converts. Nevertheless, we are (and some of us can't help it) to speak to the lost and to the believers about God and what he has done (the Gospel).

 

[Arial]

Arial said:
What does Scripture mean by being reconciled to God?
Arial said:
So, I do not know where you get the idea that Paul, an ambassador (from your perspective or mine) would not say to unbelievers---"Be reconciled to God".

If I'm getting you right, brother, you are considering "reconcile" to be in the same sort of sense of 'reconciling books' or 'restoring lost status', as over against being changed from death to life. The Children of Israel constantly had to be reconciled to God, but the Gentiles—no; not in the same sense, anyway. You do have a point, there.

Like me, @Arial seems to be thinking that in the larger sense, Creation (and humanity in particular) having been made pure and sinless before Adam's sin, are reconciled (one individual at a time) through Christ's death and resurrection. Creation will be restored to him, reconciled, after the horror of sin's encroachment is put to death.

I'm not saying this to resolve the OP, but to perhaps define who is saying what, and why they do.

All people are estranged from God. Reconciled the way I am understanding it means to have that relationship restored. And I think that is how Paul is using it in that passage since that is his ministry. Christ and him crucified.

 

[makesends]

All people are estranged from God. Reconciled the way I am understanding it means to have that relationship restored. And I think that is how Paul is using it in that passage since that is his ministry. Christ and him crucified.

Well, I haven't subjected the passage to exegesis so to me, @Carbon has a point. Lol, I'm not saying he's right, not yet.

 

[Arial]

In general, or are you referring to a certain passage?

In general, I suppose since there are many such passages.

Thats two different things.

They are distinct but we are reconciled to God because we have been justified. Our sins have been propitiated by Christ and expiated, and his righteousness imputed to us.

Why would you say that?

Because I think that is the case and I did explain it.

Because unbelievers were never united with Christ. I thought that would be obvious.

I think you need to define how you are using reconciled to God. My use: All mankind is estranged from God. To be reconciled to him is to have that relationship restored.

Believing is what is required of a lost sinner to be saved.

And believing is what reconciles us to God. Being saved (and that is saved from his wrath) is what reconciliation does.

Confessing our sins and repenting is what is required for a backslidden saint to be reconciled to God.

Is that what Paul is talking about though? And that only applies if by "reconciled" you mean fellowship with him restored.

 

[Arial]

Well, I haven't subjected the passage to exegesis so to me, @Carbon has a point. Lol, I'm not saying he's right, not yet.

All depends on how he is using the word. Or how he believes Paul is using the word. So, I certainly can't say he is wrong. I just gave my two cents on how I think Paul is using the word.

 

[Carbon]

Arial said:
What does Scripture mean by being reconciled to God?
Arial said:
So, I do not know where you get the idea that Paul, an ambassador (from your perspective or mine) would not say to unbelievers---"Be reconciled to God".

Again, because they are not saved.

If I'm getting you right, brother, you are considering "reconcile" to be in the same sort of sense of 'reconciling books' or 'restoring lost status', as over against being changed from death to life.

Yes, I suppose you can use that analogy. Now, as far as reconciliation is concerned, it has the same meaning, but in a broader sense. As far as Christ's core mission is concerned, because of the Fall, he reconciles mankind and the world back to God (using that loosely), as far as what Paul is saying, to born-again believers in Corinth, "be reconciled to God!" This only a believer can do. In other words, give up that sinful life you are living, things like @Josheb mentions in post #3 about the Corinthian Christians.

The Children of Israel constantly had to be reconciled to God, but the Gentiles—no; not in the same sense, anyway. You do have a point, there.

Thanks, I'm glad someone sees that.

Like me, @Arial seems to be thinking that in the larger sense, Creation (and humanity in particular) having been made pure and sinless before Adam's sin, are reconciled (one individual at a time) through Christ's death and resurrection. Creation will be restored to him, reconciled, after the horror of sin's encroachment is put to death.

Fair enough

I'm not saying this to resolve the OP, but to perhaps define who is saying what, and why they do.

 

[Carbon]

All people are estranged from God. Reconciled the way I am understanding it means to have that relationship restored. And I think that is how Paul is using it in that passage since that is his ministry. Christ and him crucified.

You said the magic word. Restored

How can something be restored that never was?

In that sense, one must first be saved. Then and only then is restoration possible.

 

[Carbon]

In general, I suppose since there are many such passages.

Okay.

They are distinct but we are reconciled to God because we have been justified.

If we fall away (we can because we are saved), then we can (must) be reconciled. And this is after having been regenerated, believed, (therefore justified), and sanctified by the Spirit.

Our sins have been propitiated by Christ and expiated, and his righteousness imputed to us.

Yes, I agree, when the Holy Spirit applies salvation at our individual appointed time.

Because I think that is the case and I did explain it.

Okay.

I think you need to define how you are using reconciled to God. My use: All mankind is estranged from God. To be reconciled to him is to have that relationship restored.

Okay, got ya. Do you understand my explanation?

And believing is what reconciles us to God.

No. Repentance is.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9.

We can say that being a believer is why we are reconciled to God.

Being saved (and that is saved from his wrath) is what reconciliation does.

It's all in the ordo salutis

Is that what Paul is talking about though? And that only applies if by "reconciled" you mean fellowship with him restored.

Yes, thats exactly what I mean. Think about it, how would an unbeliever have fellowship restored with God? When did the unbeliever ever have fellowship with God?