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2 Corinthians 5:17-21

Carbon

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17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling 3 the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5.

3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?
 
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling 3 the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5.

3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?
Here is my understanding and belief on these.

I believe "we are ambassadors for Christ," - is speaking/teaching that the apostles are ambassadors for Christ. Unlike many Christian churches today, which teach that all members are ambassadors for Christ. Which I disagree with.


And the "you" in verse 20. "We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." The "you" are believers in the church. The only ones who can be reconciled are believers. Can you imagine if Paul said, "You pagans, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God? That wouldn't make sense.

Agree? Disagree?
Thoughts?


I'm presently debating (friendly, of course) this with some church members.
 
3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?
Those "[in] the church of God which is at Corinth" (2 Cor. 1:1).


Paul has predicated his own role as ambassador to his having been reconciled to God. The seeming conflict lies in the premise god has reconciled you so be reconciled 🤨. Wait. What? I thought you just said we were reconciled. Why do I have to be reconciled if I am reconciled? God is reconciling the reconciled :unsure:. That doesn't make any sense.

There are layers of reconciliation to be had here because the immediate context is the mess that is the Church in Corinth. This is the second epistle to those congregations. Historians believe there were five letters, based on inferences made in these two and elsewhere in the epistolary but all we have is the two in our canon. Corinth was a very messy place. They have a guy there having sex with his father's wife and no one is doing anything about. The gifts of the Spirit are being mismanaged and the body is disorganized. Corinth is where factions are beginning to form with some following one apostle and others another. On Paul's first visit Aquila and Priscilla, Silas, and Timothy converged on the city (Acts 18) and probably caused so unintended consternation in regard to the synagogue leader, Crispus, who was a follower of Christ. Imagine all these apostles showing up to teach about Christ when that had, presumably, been happening through the guidance (ambassadorship) of the synagogue leader. It was in Corinth that the Jews accused Paul, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law." So, there is conflict (a lack of reconciliation also existing between and among the Jews in Corinth. Then there are the Gentile converts. Paul's words of reconciliation would have been understood as a reference to God taking down the dividing wall between Jew and goy and sinful man and God. Although the letter to Ephesus hadn't yet been written this reconciliation would have already been preached.

There is, therefore, a lot of reconciliation to be had in the "you/we/us" in Corinth.

Later in his ministry Paul addressed the disobedience of the Jews that applies to Corinth but it's not obvious. The rancor that existed between Jew and Gentile had always been a matter of disobedience. Israel was supposed to have been example to all the other nations....... in humility, not arrogance.

Romans 11:12-16
Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore, insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if, somehow, I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

Ima provoke 'em. Ima provoke 'em to jealousy! 😮

Their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world! 😲

Acceptance means life from the dead 😇.








If I may digress for just this post, I believe the hints of separation in which Paul asserts his apostleship in reference to the you/us are why God sent him the proverbial thorn in his side to prevent him from exalting himself. He wasn't there with the Twelve in episodes like Matthew 20:20-28 when Jesus explained "servant leadership." Paul was the murderous conspirator, not the abandoning disciple. He'd received the highest education possible and held positions of authority only to be knocked off his donkey 😏. Paul learned servant leadership through a different set of trials but the hint of hierarchical me/you runs throughout all his epistles. He becomes indignant when anyone leaves him, often reporting the otherwise private matter publicly in his letters without any acknowledgment God may have called those individuals elsewhere. It is in spite of himself, not (just) beatings and stonings, that he remains faithful. Paul was working on reconciliation a lot. That's the making of a great ambassador ;).
.
 
First, I want to say, thanks for another thoughtful, excellent reply, as usual. :)
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.

The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
If I may say so, because we believers have been catechized by the watered-down church since the 1700's to think a different way (it's gone awry since the 1700's), it is natural to think such. ie, that we (lay members) are ambassadors for Christ as well. The church in modern times has lost its authority. Christ established the church of the New Covenant, and Paul and the apostles, who are "highly dignified messengers," are sent to deal with the church and its members in His stead.

Back up just a little bit to the beginning of the epistle. Who is it written to?
2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


So, according to verses 1&2 who is it written to? Believers.
For where does scripture ever call or consider the church of God, unbelievers? Or, call or consider the Saints unbelievers?
Where does scripture ever say, grace and peace from God our Father to unbelievers?

Nor can I find anywhere in scripture where it teaches the unbelievers (or reprobate) to be reconciled to God. That just does not make any sense.

I see this as a call by the apostles, "ambassadors of the church", to action to a troubled church to not take the mercy and kindness and Christ's great work and receive it only in profession.
 
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
But by extension? Where does it teach that?
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
By extension again? Again, where is that taught?

Paul is teaching about his and the other apostles' being ambassadors, not about that extending to all members of the church.

I can see why the church would, either knowingly or unknowingly, extend that onward, and that is, to increase church numbers; more members equals success, right? But what this does do is start to break down the authority of the church.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Who has the authority to write this 2 Corinthians? Who is the ambassador here? Paul or a regular church member?

 
The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.

The apostles.... but, by extension, all of those reconciled to God through Christ in Corinth, and then to all who are reconciled to God through the work of His resurrected Son and faith therein.
..
Those "[in] the church of God which is at Corinth" (2 Cor. 1:1).

Paul has predicated his own role as ambassador to his having been reconciled to God. The seeming conflict lies in the premise god has reconciled you so be reconciled 🤨. Wait. What? I thought you just said we were reconciled. Why do I have to be reconciled if I am reconciled? God is reconciling the reconciled :unsure:. That doesn't make any sense.
Wait. what? You thought I said we were reconciled? I know you don't think I said that, as that would not be accurate of anything I said. But I see your point, and I believe it is erroneous.

One cannot be reconciled to what they never had before. I thought that was obvious?
Reconciliation is the process of being restored.
If one has never been united to Christ, how would being united to Christ be a reconciliation?


There are layers of reconciliation to be had here because the immediate context is the mess that is the Church in Corinth.
What do you mean by layers of reconciliation? I'm not following.
And the immediate context is not a mess at all. If the context were a mess, why would anyone consider context? Would context then be king? I think not.

I believe looking at context is best. So we should continue that practice.
This is the second epistle to those congregations. Historians believe there were five letters, based on inferences made in these two and elsewhere in the epistolary but all we have is the two in our canon.
Okay.
Corinth was a very messy place. They have a guy there having sex with his father's wife and no one is doing anything about. The gifts of the Spirit are being mismanaged and the body is disorganized. Corinth is where factions are beginning to form with some following one apostle and others another. On Paul's first visit Aquila and Priscilla, Silas, and Timothy converged on the city (Acts 18) and probably caused so unintended consternation in regard to the synagogue leader, Crispus, who was a follower of Christ.
And those among the believers practicing such things need to be reconciled to God. Paul begs them to do so on behalf of Christ. Paul is telling and teaching the Corinthian believers as if God were making an appeal through them (him), as an ambassador.

If you would have it that all Christians are ambassadors, then all should do away with the title. Since they represent the power and dignity of their sovereign. One example to consider, or at least to get the point rolling, is to consider all the street preaching, "Smile, Jesus loves you. "Just say the sinner's prayer, etc... etc..." Does that reflect a highly dignified messenger sent to deal with the lost in Christ's stead?
Imagine all these apostles showing up to teach about Christ when that had, presumably, been happening through the guidance (ambassadorship) of the synagogue leader.
Not sure of your point? You have read where Paul has corrected churches?
It was in Corinth that the Jews accused Paul, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law." So, there is conflict (a lack of reconciliation also existing between and among the Jews in Corinth. Then there are the Gentile converts. Paul's words of reconciliation would have been understood as a reference to God taking down the dividing wall between Jew and goy and sinful man and God. Although the letter to Ephesus hadn't yet been written this reconciliation would have already been preached.
I think some may get confused with the translation from Greek to Englism becauseGreek dont agree with you.
Biblical Greek =
to change, exchange, or transform a relationship from enmity to friendship. It signifies a radical, mutual change where hostility is replaced with peace, often described as changing "enemies into friends".
There is, therefore, a lot of reconciliation to be had in the "you/we/us" in Corinth.
There sure is, these people need to get their lives in order, and be reconciled with God.
Later in his ministry Paul addressed the disobedience of the Jews that applies to Corinth but it's not obvious. The rancor that existed between Jew and Gentile had always been a matter of disobedience. Israel was supposed to have been example to all the other nations....... in humility, not arrogance.

Romans 11:12-16
Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore, insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if, somehow, I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

Ima provoke 'em. Ima provoke 'em to jealousy! 😮

Their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world! 😲

Acceptance means life from the dead 😇.
Maybe you're not understanding my op?


Now, what you seem to be talking about, but confusing it with reconciliation, is: Salvation.

I believe these people Paul is addressing are already saved.
I agree with you when you said this:
Corinth was a very messy place. They have a guy there having sex with his father's wife and no one is doing anything about. The gifts of the Spirit are being mismanaged and the body is disorganized.
And this is why Paul said: Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20.


If these people were not believers, the instruction would be quite different.

It would be along these lines.
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, Acts 13:38

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30,31

There would be discussions like Ephesians 2, John 3 etc....

These arent about being reconciled, this is about believing (salvation)
 
There is, therefore, a lot of reconciliation to be had in the "you/we/us" in Corinth.

Later in his ministry Paul addressed the disobedience of the Jews that applies to Corinth but it's not obvious. The rancor that existed between Jew and Gentile had always been a matter of disobedience. Israel was supposed to have been example to all the other nations....... in humility, not arrogance.

Romans 11:12-16
Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore, insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if, somehow, I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

Ima provoke 'em. Ima provoke 'em to jealousy! 😮

Their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world! 😲

Acceptance means life from the dead 😇.
Romans 5:11
And not only so, but also we are rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Do you now see that this is not teaching that those of the audience in 2 Corinthians are pagans? Pagans were never Christians; therefore, they can't be reconciled.

Now you may see the different meaning that it seems you are blending.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

To seek and save that which is lost is the core purpose of Christ's mission, is it not? Doesn't Jesus's statement that he came to seek and save the lost highlight his incarnation, ministry, death, and resurrection in rescuing humanity?

But what do pagans have in common with Christ that they can be reconciled (brought back together, united)?
If I understand scripture, pagans must first die, be crucified with Christ, and be regenerated before they can be united.
 
Might find this interesting. Here is Calvin's commentary on 2 Cor 5:20 about reconciliation.

Calvin:
Be reconciled. It is to be observed, that Paul is here addressing himself to believers. He declares, that he brings to them every day this embassy. Christ therefore, did not suffer, merely that he might once expiate our sins, nor was the gospel appointed merely with a view to the pardon of those sins which we committed previously to baptism, but that, as we daily sin, so we might, also, by a daily remission, be received by God into his favor. For this is a continued embassy, [563] which must be assiduously sounded forth in the Church, till the end of the world; and the gospel cannot be preached, unless remission of sins is promised.
 
Calvin writes in the Institutes:

Book 3 Ch 4 V 27
That embassy, which Paul so glowingly extols -- " I beseech you in Christ's name, be reconciled to God" -- is directed not to outsiders, but to those who have already been reborn. But having bidden farewell to satisfaction, he regulates them to the cross of Christ. So, where Paul writes to the Colossians that Christ has "reconciled all things that are on heaven or earth . . . .by the blood of the cross" Col 1:14. Now it is superfluous to heap up more such passages, which repeatedly occur.
 
After having come this far, I also more firmly believe the ambassadors are of the apostles, having the authority in the church. And so in this sense, I can also understand and accept the fact that ambassadors are also today's pastors and elders, since they possess the keys as well. The members who do not hold the position of elder or pastor do not possess the keys, do not have that authorty and therefore are not ambassadors.
 
First, I want to say, thanks for another thoughtful, excellent reply, as usual. :)

If I may say so, because we believers have been catechized.........
Yep. Most conversations in DBs are little more than the parroting of things poured into our lustful brains genuinely seeking to understand truth but, instead parroting propaganda. I made a comment in a thread about the raputure yesterday and one guy said it's going to be like it was in the day of Noah because Dainel ouher'v'qh' i'efvqvipn v'ouubv/l efvq;obevbt eisegetic vomit vomit vomit and Ezekiel ;ohobual jbnadfvljb\ vomit vomit vomit and when I asked one single solitary question, "What happened in the days of Noah?" a wall of text filled with more vomit was the response. 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Back up just a little bit to the beginning of the epistle. Who is it written to?
2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


So, according to verses 1&2 who is it written to? Believers.
For where does scripture ever call or consider the church of God, unbelievers? Or, call or consider the Saints unbelievers?
Where does scripture ever say, grace and peace from God our Father to unbelievers?

Nor can I find anywhere in scripture where it teaches the unbelievers (or reprobate) to be reconciled to God. That just does not make any sense.

I see this as a call by the apostles, "ambassadors of the church", to action to a troubled church to not take the mercy and kindness and Christ's great work and receive it only in profession.
Yep.

One point to which we must attend, though, is the fact we humans don't know who is and is not elect. We are, by default, ministering to the sinner. It'd be a whole lot easier to share the gospel if the elect had signs stapled to their foreheads 😯. I've really taken to heart that thing your pastor said about following the pronouns. I didn't say this in my op-reply, but everything we're directed to say/do culminates in the goals of Ephesians 4:12-16.

...for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

When that happens, we're all be ambassadors of near-equal caliber.
 
But by extension? Where does it teach that?
Logical necessity. If scripture was applicable solely to those to whom it was written and the distinctions between apostle, teach, prophet, etc. were also thusly limited a large portion of scripture would be irrelevant to us today.
By extension again? Again, where is that taught?
Every example in the Bible in which the theme/metaphor of the seed reproducing.
Paul is teaching about his and the other apostles' being ambassadors, not about that extending to all members of the church.
Yeah. No. Sorta. What is the goal of an apostle? (see my previous post).
I can see why the church would, either knowingly or unknowingly, extend that onward, and that is, to increase church numbers; more members equals success, right? But what this does do is start to break down the authority of the church.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Who has the authority to write this 2 Corinthians? Who is the ambassador here? Paul or a regular church member?
Is the endpoint, the goal, to have a bunch of people who are reconciled to God and then that's it?
 
What do you mean by layers of reconciliation? I'm not following.
I'll have to follow up with you later because time is limited tonight. If I don't get back to this by Monday bump me.
Maybe you're not understanding my op?
If you're op is teaching something other than scripture then that might be true ;).
Now, what you seem to be talking about, but confusing it with reconciliation, is: Salvation.
Well, if that is what you think then we're probably not going to agree because we have different views on what constitutes the constituents like sanctification and reconciliation but I am not confused and don't appreciate the comment. It's better to ask then tell.
I believe these people Paul is addressing are already saved.
Yep. Me, too.
I agree with you when you said this:

And this is why Paul said: Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20.


If these people were not believers, the instruction would be quite different.
The letter was not written to non-believers.
It would be along these lines.
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, Acts 13:38

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30,31

There would be discussions like Ephesians 2, John 3 etc....

These arent about being reconciled, this is about believing (salvation)
Try 2 Timothy 3:16-17 😇
 
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling 3 the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5.

3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?

Here is my understanding and belief on these.

I believe "we are ambassadors for Christ," - is speaking/teaching that the apostles are ambassadors for Christ. Unlike many Christian churches today, which teach that all members are ambassadors for Christ. Which I disagree with.


And the "you" in verse 20. "We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." The "you" are believers in the church. The only ones who can be reconciled are believers. Can you imagine if Paul said, "You pagans, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God? That wouldn't make sense.

Agree? Disagree?
Thoughts?


I'm presently debating (friendly, of course) this with some church members.
While I agree that strictly according to the text and context it is possible to draw your conclusions, I don't think that is all that is going on there.

It is quite possible to plead with all people, "Be reconciled to God". But that possibility does not change your point. However, neither does it prove, since in this context it may only the Apostles making the plea, that only Apostles are to make that plea. Nor, even if in this context the "you" is believers, that only believers are to be pled with thus.

I disagree with the logic that says, since only believers can be reconciled to God, that only believers are to be pled with thus. I could argue just as logically, that believers already ARE reconciled to God, so why plead with them to be so? We do ask pagans to believe the Gospel, and to love God, and to obey him, because (if for no other reason) all 'attempts that direction' are useful to suppress the flesh and are means to common grace.

But as for the use you make of this passage, besides that logic on those two issues, and without spending more time in exegesis, I'd say you have a very good point as to THIS particular passage.

Reminds me of "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." In the context, you'd have to go beyond the text alone, to demonstrate that surely Paul was using a play on words or something; the text suggests he was telling the Jailer that he would be saved from the Roman penalty for escaped prisoners, which is most likely what the Jailer feared. The fact that Christians have for centuries used it to refer to salvation from sin and sin's death, does not make it so.
 
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling 3 the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5.

3 questions,
1. Considering the context, who are the ambassadors?
2. Who are ambassadors for Christ?
3. Who is the "you" in verse 20?
Oh, I forgot to mention, the "we" and the "you" are not necessarily separate entities, as language goes. That is, often the 'you' is included within, 'we', 'our' and such, specially as passive recipients of some action upon them. In this case, it is indeed Paul pleading with the Corinthians, (not with himself, of course), but to transfer the "we" ["are ambassadors"] to necessarily only the apostles is a step beyond where I will go without further study.
 
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What do you mean by layers of reconciliation? I'm not following.
I listed several layers of context.
And the immediate context is not a mess at all.
I did not say the context is a mess. I said the mess in Corinth is the context.
I believe looking at context is best. So we should continue that practice.
Well, before doing so I believe you should re-read my post again.
And those among the believers practicing such things need to be reconciled to God. Paul begs them to do so on behalf of Christ. Paul is telling and teaching the Corinthian believers as if God were making an appeal through them (him), as an ambassador.
Yes, and.....? What reconciliation do the salvifically reconciled in Corinth need? I listed multiple reasons in my op-reply.
If you would have it that all Christians are ambassadors, then all should do away with the title.
That's just dumb.

Paul, as an apostle, was an ambassador from God for Christ and the gospel to the Corinthians to whom he was writing but the Corinthians were not the only people to whom Paul was an ambassador. Remember: 1) no one verse in any book defines all that scripture states on a matter and 2) no two verses of the Bible can contradict one another. It is, therefore, incorrect to say Paul was only an ambassador to the Corinthians. We can say was an ambassador to the Corinthians in that letter. We might say Paul was an ambassador only to the Corinthians in that letter were it not for the fact the epistles were distributed to cities and towns other than Corinth and the content of any one epistle had application to Christians in all locales. The election of the Corinthians does not preclude the election of those in Ephesus, nor those in Rome.

Furthermore, any number of positions of leadership can be a a "presbeuó." The title "ambassador," does not have the same meaning in Koine Greek that it does in modernity and it didn't have the same meaning in Greco-Roman culture in all circumstances. A prophet, evangelist, pastor or a teacher could be a presbeuo. At it's root the word simply means someone older, usually held in esteem and possessing some position of stature. The emissary nature of a modern-day "ambassador" was not the emphasis of the word. Paul was simply asserting a position of authority, curiously, as an apostle, a messenger of Christ who was also a bondservant. The apostles were leaders but while Paul established sound doctrine in the congregations he visited, he left the direct leadership, and its corresponding authority, to the shepherds and elders of the congregation. They, too, were presbeuo for Christ to their congregants.
Since they represent the power and dignity of their sovereign.
As do all those in leadership within the Church.
One example to consider, or at least to get the point rolling, is to consider all the street preaching, "Smile, Jesus loves you. "Just say the sinner's prayer, etc... etc..." Does that reflect a highly dignified messenger sent to deal with the lost in Christ's stead?
Red herring. When you can provide evidence of Paul wearing special garb, like a long coat with a fleur de lis on the breast then I'll entertain the notion. Otherwise, it's a baseless product of someone's imagination. Paul was a messenger, a messenger of Jesus Christ whose job was to equip the saints for the work ministry, build up the body of Christ until it had attained unity of the faith and the knowledge of Christ to the point at which they were mature, and had reached the stature and fullness of Christ. Their stature would equal his own. This was the job of the prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, as well. They all did it without wearing special uniforms designating any elevated position and special "dignity" they possessed. It didn't take much dignity to be better than the Corinthians. In the chronology of his letters, Paul moved from introducing himself without a title to calling himself a messenger, and then to calling himself a bondservant. His "stature" was that of a debtor whose debt had been purchased, and he worked for the purchaser. He shared that position with every convert to Christ.

Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

That was the position Paul held as an apostle. This was a matter of some initial confusion among the Corinthians because he was bold in his letters but meek in person.
Not sure of your point? You have read where Paul has corrected churches?
????? Yes, I have read where Paul corrected churches. Paul is correcting congregants, thoughts, false doctrines, and errant practices in all of his epistles. My point was to ask you to empathize with the leader of the synagogue and thereby gain insight into the context of the passage in question (2 Cor. 5:17-21).
I think some may get confused with the translation from Greek to Englism because Greek dont agree with you.
Biblical Greek = to change, exchange, or transform a relationship from enmity to friendship. It signifies a radical, mutual change where hostility is replaced with peace, often described as changing "enemies into friends".
Alas, for future reference, I would appreciate it if you would ask, "Are you confused about...............?" or "Is there some confusion about.....?" before you go telling people they are confused. Ask; don't presume, don't tell, don't dictate to others what the understand or don't understand.


Ephesians 2:11-22
11
Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in himself he might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16and that he might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Reconcile: to change, exchange, or transform a relationship from enmity to friendship.

I am not confused and the Greek does agree with me.
There sure is, these people need to get their lives in order and be reconciled with God.
Why? Because the Corinthian congregations were a mess? Because some guy is having sex with his father's wife and no one in the Corinthian leadership is doing anything about? Is that why they need to be reconciled to God? Or is it that they've begun to factionalize, with one congregant claiming to follow Paul, another to follow Apollos, another to follow Cephas and yet another to follow Jesus. Is that why they needed to be reconciled to God? Or maybe it was because when females from the Aphrodite cult became converts to Christ their previous power and influence proved a challenge to their integration, especially among those who became prophets within the Corinthian body of Christ.

Did I not explicitly state, "Corinth was a very messy place. They have a guy there having sex with his father's wife and no one is doing anything about. The gifts of the Spirit are being mismanaged and the body is disorganized. Corinth is where factions are beginning to form with some following one apostle and others another."

Their lives were not in order.
Maybe you're not understanding my op?
ROTFLMBO! Maybe the op is not sufficiently clear.
Now, what you seem to be talking about, but confusing it with reconciliation, is: Salvation.
Telling me what I do and don't understand again? How about you provide me with an example of someone who is saved but not salvifically reconciled by God to God for God?
I believe these people Paul is addressing are already saved.
Yep. That would be consistent with Paul calling them "the Church," "those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people... who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," and "brothers and sisters."
I agree with you when you said this:

And this is why Paul said: Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20.

If these people were not believers, the instruction would be quite different.
Yep. Hence the question, "Why do I have to be reconciled if I am reconciled? God is reconciling the reconciled :unsure:.
These arent about being reconciled, this is about believing (salvation)
You're confused. 😁

There are no saved people who are not reconciled by God to God for good works he'd planned in advance for them to perform. That does not mean a saved person who has been reconciled by God through the cross does not also need to be reconciled to/with God because of some post-conversion matter (like having sex with stepmom or preferring Paul over Jesus).

2 Peter 1:3-10 NIV
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.

Just because the Christian has everything s/he needs to live a godly life and partake in the divine nature and has been cleansed from past sins, does not mean s/he never has anymore reconciling to do.
 
Romans 5:11
And not only so, but also we are rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Do you now see that this is not teaching that those of the audience in 2 Corinthians are pagans?
I never said the audience in 2 Corinthians are pagans. Some Christians in that congregation, however, however, were formerly pagans.

1 Corinthians 12:2
You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.

They had been reconciled to God accordingly.
Now you may see the different meaning that it seems you are blending.
What I see is that you still have difficulty making assumptions and telling others what they do and do not understand. Thank you for your time.
 
I listed several layers of context.

I did not say the context is a mess. I said the mess in Corinth is the context.

Well, before doing so I believe you should re-read my post again.

Yes, and.....? What reconciliation do the salvifically reconciled in Corinth need? I listed multiple reasons in my op-reply.

That's just dumb.

Paul, as an apostle, was an ambassador from God for Christ and the gospel to the Corinthians to whom he was writing but the Corinthians were not the only people to whom Paul was an ambassador. Remember: 1) no one verse in any book defines all that scripture states on a matter and 2) no two verses of the Bible can contradict one another. It is, therefore, incorrect to say Paul was only an ambassador to the Corinthians. We can say was an ambassador to the Corinthians in that letter. We might say Paul was an ambassador only to the Corinthians in that letter were it not for the fact the epistles were distributed to cities and towns other than Corinth and the content of any one epistle had application to Christians in all locales. The election of the Corinthians does not preclude the election of those in Ephesus, nor those in Rome.

Furthermore, any number of positions of leadership can be a a "presbeuó." The title "ambassador," does not have the same meaning in Koine Greek that it does in modernity and it didn't have the same meaning in Greco-Roman culture in all circumstances. A prophet, evangelist, pastor or a teacher could be a presbeuo. At it's root the word simply means someone older, usually held in esteem and possessing some position of stature. The emissary nature of a modern-day "ambassador" was not the emphasis of the word. Paul was simply asserting a position of authority, curiously, as an apostle, a messenger of Christ who was also a bondservant. The apostles were leaders but while Paul established sound doctrine in the congregations he visited, he left the direct leadership, and its corresponding authority, to the shepherds and elders of the congregation. They, too, were presbeuo for Christ to their congregants.

As do all those in leadership within the Church.

Red herring. When you can provide evidence of Paul wearing special garb, like a long coat with a fleur de lis on the breast then I'll entertain the notion. Otherwise, it's a baseless product of someone's imagination. Paul was a messenger, a messenger of Jesus Christ whose job was to equip the saints for the work ministry, build up the body of Christ until it had attained unity of the faith and the knowledge of Christ to the point at which they were mature, and had reached the stature and fullness of Christ. Their stature would equal his own. This was the job of the prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, as well. They all did it without wearing special uniforms designating any elevated position and special "dignity" they possessed. It didn't take much dignity to be better than the Corinthians. In the chronology of his letters, Paul moved from introducing himself without a title to calling himself a messenger, and then to calling himself a bondservant. His "stature" was that of a debtor whose debt had been purchased, and he worked for the purchaser. He shared that position with every convert to Christ.

Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

That was the position Paul held as an apostle. This was a matter of some initial confusion among the Corinthians because he was bold in his letters but meek in person.

????? Yes, I have read where Paul corrected churches. Paul is correcting congregants, thoughts, false doctrines, and errant practices in all of his epistles. My point was to ask you to empathize with the leader of the synagogue and thereby gain insight into the context of the passage in question (2 Cor. 5:17-21).

Alas, for future reference, I would appreciate it if you would ask, "Are you confused about...............?" or "Is there some confusion about.....?" before you go telling people they are confused. Ask; don't presume, don't tell, don't dictate to others what the understand or don't understand.


Ephesians 2:11-22
11
Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in himself he might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16and that he might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Reconcile: to change, exchange, or transform a relationship from enmity to friendship.

I am not confused and the Greek does agree with me.

Why? Because the Corinthian congregations were a mess? Because some guy is having sex with his father's wife and no one in the Corinthian leadership is doing anything about? Is that why they need to be reconciled to God? Or is it that they've begun to factionalize, with one congregant claiming to follow Paul, another to follow Apollos, another to follow Cephas and yet another to follow Jesus. Is that why they needed to be reconciled to God? Or maybe it was because when females from the Aphrodite cult became converts to Christ their previous power and influence proved a challenge to their integration, especially among those who became prophets within the Corinthian body of Christ.

Did I not explicitly state, "Corinth was a very messy place. They have a guy there having sex with his father's wife and no one is doing anything about. The gifts of the Spirit are being mismanaged and the body is disorganized. Corinth is where factions are beginning to form with some following one apostle and others another."

Their lives were not in order.

ROTFLMBO! Maybe the op is not sufficiently clear.

Telling me what I do and don't understand again? How about you provide me with an example of someone who is saved but not salvifically reconciled by God to God for God?

Yep. That would be consistent with Paul calling them "the Church," "those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people... who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," and "brothers and sisters."

Yep. Hence the question, "Why do I have to be reconciled if I am reconciled? God is reconciling the reconciled :unsure:.

You're confused. 😁

There are no saved people who are not reconciled by God to God for good works he'd planned in advance for them to perform. That does not mean a saved person who has been reconciled by God through the cross does not also need to be reconciled to/with God because of some post-conversion matter (like having sex with stepmom or preferring Paul over Jesus).

2 Peter 1:3-10 NIV
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.

Just because the Christian has everything s/he needs to live a godly life and partake in the divine nature and has been cleansed from past sins, does not mean s/he never has anymore reconciling to do.
Well thanks brother for sharing your understanding. Though we may not agree in some things, I respect your knowledge and opinion.
 
I never said the audience in 2 Corinthians are pagans. Some Christians in that congregation, however, however, were formerly pagans.

1 Corinthians 12:2
You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.

They had been reconciled to God accordingly.

What I see is that you still have difficulty making assumptions and telling others what they do and do not understand. Thank you for your time.
I did'nt say you said the audience was pagans. I was just trying to make an example. Perhaps its in the way I said it you misunderstood? ;)
 
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