1000 years of Revelation 20.

[Carbon]

Not doing something ("failed to answer what that symbolism is") and doing something ("making up your own meaning of a symbol" which is what you accused me of) are not the same thing.

I didn't explain because the specific meaning symbols is not the subject except for the 1000 years. You are asking for something that belongs in a whole other thread. I will start one dealing with that one set of scriptures just for you. But it is not like I have never addressed the specifics with you before. I have in long dead threads. All I got back was scoffing and no engagement with what was said. So hopefully, even prayerfully for the sake of the civility of this forum, this next time will be met actual discussion of what I have presented. And that will require you to demonstrate that I am wrong by something more that repeating your opinion and interpretation.

I don't know if I will get to it today or tomorrow.

And I believe we are giving @CrowCross every opportunity to prove his pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism.

 

[Arial]

Yes. Or do you see it like a retailer turning the sign around in their window?

Does it have to be one or the other? Truth be told. it is neither.

All one has to do is do the math. You can start with the decree to rebuild the second temple then work out the dates.
Rev even speaks of it.

That isn't something you did, it is something you just accepted. How many times have various Dispensationalist "done the math" on this and that and been absolutely wrong---making false prophecies to boot? Not only that, on this particular "math" they have to keep juggling things around to make it come out the way they want it to.

Riddle me this....then what does a 1/3 of the earth being destroyed mean in your symbolic world?

When have the 4 horsemen symbolically rode? The answer...NEVER.

Deflection from having to deal with any other view. Like this: "Who cares what you have to say? If you disagree with me then riddle me this and lets only hear what I have to say." Start individual thread with individual questions on the amil interpretation of symbols by asking in genuine sincerity and pure motive. I am not taking the bait here.

The second question is nonsensical. If the four horsemen are symbolic, they never rode and never will in a literalistic sense.

Did you just read what you wrote????

You are going to have to explain what you mean by this. You seem to be saying I contradicted myself and so show me the contradiction.

 

[Arial]

What's next? The rider is also symbolic?

The rider is symbolically represented. Read this again and seriously tell me what it means. I ask because you keep making commments that shows you either did not read it or do not comprehend it.

Vision: It communicates truth about God's actions, purposes, or future events. It is the mode of revelation. It is a divinely given perceptual experience in which God communicates truth by presenting images, scenes, or events to a prophet or seer.

A symbolic vision (and Revelation, portions of Ez and Dan is a book of symbolic visions) is a vision in which the thigs seen are not the realities themselves, but representations that stand for other realities.

The form is visual and concrete (beasts, horns lamps, cities, horses, keys, swords etc. What it refers to is often abstract, historical, spiritual or future (kingdoms, powers, judgments, covenant realities). The objects are signs of something beyond themselves. IOW the image signifies the thing.

Symbolic does not mean "less real" it means the truth is conveyed indirectly through representation.

When you ask..."where does it show him coming to earth in that vision"...I have to ask....where does the bible even speak of the return of Christ? If that isn't the return of Christ....then what is it?

What would be better is if you answered the question instead of an attempted deflection by asking another?

 

[CrowCross]

Did you forget already that symbolism symbolizes something? So why then does it have to be mentioned in Acts 1?

Come on Carbon...be serious...If Jesus left on a white horse or with all the symbolism associated with it in Rev 19...Don't you think Luke the historian would have mentioned it???

When will you realize there is a pre-trib rapture?

Rev 4:16? Better look again.

oops. Meant 1 Thes 4:16.

No, there is only one Second Coming @CrowCross

Christians are going through the tribulation, and even later, when it gets much worse, we will be here.

The only christians who will go through the 7 year tribulation are the christians who became christians during the 7 year tribulation.

Shall we get into the days of Noah and Lot? Do you think the times will be warm and fuzzy at the end of the tribulation?

I'm comforted in my faith in Christ, knowing he has all things in his hands.

Yes He does....One of them is deliverance from the wrath that will come upon the world.

 

[CrowCross]

And yes, by all means, please point out this pre-trib rapture of the church.

I have. You do know that the early church understood the rapture and it wasn't made up by Darby?

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross , and please show me where this rapture will be a secret? because I see the "Second Coming" as anything but secret, -For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Who said the rapture will be a secret? Shhhhhhh don't tell anyone.

The timing may be God the Fathers secret as nobody know the day or hour....but the event won't be a secret.

 

[CrowCross]

That isn't something you did, it is something you just accepted. How many times have various Dispensationalist "done the math" on this and that and been absolutely wrong---making false prophecies to boot? Not only that, on this particular "math" they have to keep juggling things around to make it come out the way they want it to.

The math was in expressing the 7 year tribulation.....Daniels 70th week. .....but you now want to turn it into people guessing the date of the rapture.

The "clock" was stopped when Jesus was cut off.....After the rapture the clock will tick again...1 week or seven years to go when Gods focus is on Israel...before the literal 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

The rider is symbolically represented. Read this again and seriously tell me what it means. I ask because you keep making commments that shows you either did not read it or do not comprehend it.

It means Jesus will come back riding a white horse. Not a donkey.... like He literally rode on Palm Sunday.

 

[Marty]

Crow cross you mentioned that I didn’t provide any scripture and then I did show three different scriptures from Paul showing that revelation 20:4 was a symbolic current reality in Paul’s day and then you just made a sarcastic comment.

This is the third time I’ve asked you to comment on it could you please?

I am not trying to be difficult but want to keep you accountable to your requests from me and debate in respectful fellow brother in Christ loving way.

After we are on the same team overall

 

[Arial]

It means Jesus will come back riding a white horse. Not a donkey.... like He literally rode on Palm Sunday.

You still haven't told me what my post means. The one I quoted for you twice and asked you twice to tell me what it meant. The above is just another deflection t avoid the question. Why is that?

 

[Bruiser]

Why can't I get into Eschatology??

 

[Arial]

The math was in expressing the 7 year tribulation.....Daniels 70th week. .....but you now want to turn it into people guessing the date of the rapture.

That is what they are doing, and they do it without ever proving that there is a premil rapture or seven-year tribulation. THAT is the problem. Will you be the first to prove from Scripture what Scripture will not support? So far--no. Repetition isn't proof.

The "clock" was stopped when Jesus was cut off.

Prove that is what Daniel is saying. And prove that even if that is the case, that solidifies a rapture and seven-year tribulation. You are so adamant and secure in your beliefs, doing so should be easy for you. A person can't just say "this means that" and expect it to be accepted as fact---even though a great many people do since scriptures are pulled out and it is announced, "Look it says so right here!" Sure, it does if the rest of the Bible doesn't matter and consistency within it is irrelevant, and logic defies it.

.After the rapture the clock will tick again

Your view of the rapture has yet to be demonstrably proven. So far it is all presuppositional.

Just curios. Is that a literal clock or is the clock being used in a symbolic manner?

1 week or seven years to go when Gods focus is on Israel...before the literal 1000 year reign of Christ.

God was never focused on Israel. He is always focused on Christ. Israel is his servant.

 

[Arial]

Shall we get into the days of Noah and Lot? Do you think the times will be warm and fuzzy at the end of the tribulation?

Are they warm and fuzzy now?

 

[Arial]

I have. You do know that the early church understood the rapture and it wasn't made up by Darby?

The understanding of the rapture in the early church was a whole different thing that what Scoffield and Darby turned it into. There is no comparison so it is fallacious to use that as a support system.

 

[Arial]

Why can't I get into Eschatology??

I suspect because premil pre trib Dispensationalism has turned it into a massive puzzle to solve (which they assert they have solved) that misses the entire purpose and message of Revelation.

Recommended reading: A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger and As Far as the Curse is Found by Michael D. Williams. Both are eye openers. The Williams book in my opinion lays a solid ground work of Scripture in its totality as one story, the story of redemption. Kim R restores the amazing beauty and perfection and purpose of Revelation.

I never took much interest in Rev either until recently. There was just too much indoctrinated into my reading of it and it was impossible to find any value in it for me. And yet it is in our Bible, the very word of God, so it is important and of supreme value. If nothing else, read the amil book. It will likely change your perspective on eschatology.

In brief, Revelation stands as one of the most, if not the most, powerful feasts for our comfort and endurance and strength, encouragement as we await his return. As we walk through this valley of the shadow of death.

 

[Bruiser]

I suspect because premil pre trib Dispensationalism has turned it into a massive puzzle to solve (which they assert they have solved) that misses the entire purpose and message of Revelation.

Recommended reading: A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger and As Far as the Curse is Found by Michael D. Williams. Both are eye openers. The Williams book in my opinion lays a solid ground work of Scripture in its totality as one story, the story of redemption. Kim R restores the amazing beauty and perfection and purpose of Revelation.

I never took much interest in Rev either until recently. There was just too much indoctrinated into my reading of it and it was impossible to find any value in it for me. And yet it is in our Bible, the very word of God, so it is important and of supreme value. If nothing else, read the amil book. It will likely change your perspective on eschatology.

In brief, Revelation stands as one of the most, if not the most, powerful feasts for our comfort and endurance and strength, encouragement as we await his return. As we walk through this valley of the shadow of death.

I got to thinking about why, after I asked the question; and I think you're right. I'm a Lowest Common Denominator kind of guy, an Elementary ABC and 123 kind of guy. I like things simple, so I like Amillenialism and Partial Preterism because it makes it easy...

But I don't want to take the easy way out because it's my nature. I've always said that Partial Preterism makes SO much sense; it ruined Eschatology for me...

 

[Reformedguy]

And I believe we are giving @CrowCross every opportunity to prove his pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism.

Its a tough job.

 

[Reformedguy]

I got to thinking about why, after I asked the question; and I think you're right. I'm a Lowest Common Denominator kind of guy, an Elementary ABC and 123 kind of guy. I like things simple, so I like Amillenialism and Partial Preterism because it makes it easy...

But I don't want to take the easy way out because it's my nature. I've always said that Partial Preterism makes SO much sense; it ruined Eschatology for me...

Welcome to the team Bruiser.

 

[Bruiser]

What do y'all think about this? I wrote it, not siding with Premillennial Dispensationalism...

Rapture ready ~ by ReverendRV * August 26

Joshua 6:20 NASB; So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city.

God delivered Israel from slavery while in Egypt, and promised the people a Land for themselves. God made them mighty, and fear spread to all who were in their way. One such place was Jericho, and they trusted in their city walls to keep them safe. God told Joshua to walk around the city six days and on the seventh day to do it seven times; then the Priests would blow trumpets and all the people would shout! When this was done, the walls of Jericho fell down and the people entered the city. ~ Rahab the Harlot previously made a Treaty with Israel by hiding two of their Spies. She hung a scarlet thread out her of window at the time of the attack so she could be saved. ~ Jericho’s Ruins have been found, and there’s a dispute about the Dating of its destruction; but if the Bible is true, it was just what we expected to find…

If the Bible’s true, we can always expect to find the Truth. ~ Have you ever had a god other than the God of the Bible? This was true of those living in Jericho. Have you ever thought of God as something Unreal? Then you’ve made a god to suit yourself; this is Idolatry. Have you ever used the name of God as a vile cuss word? This is called Blasphemy; if there is a God, could any wall keep you safe from him? Did you go to Church this week? You haven’t kept the Sabbath Holy. These are just four of the Ten Commandments, not including Lying and Stealing, which we all have done. Now we’ve walked around your walls six times, are you ready for a seventh? If God judged you by his standards, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you?? When the trumpets blow, you’ll fall with a shout...

You need a strong tower to take refuge in! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus is the Spotless lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. He’s the only person who deserves to go to Heaven on his own, but will not go alone; he trades his Righteousness with all who will dare hang their scarlet thread for him to see. He died on a Cross to pay for Sins, shed his scarlet blood for the Remission of Sins and to turn the Wrath of God away from us. He died, was buried three days but arose to new Life! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without our ever Working to be rescued. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and join a Bible believing Church that has a heart for the Lost. ~ The Bible teaches about the end of the world but before this happens the Rapture will occur; but what’s that? It’s when Jesus will return for his Church with a trumpet blast, with the voice of an Archangel; we’ll rise to be with him forever. But when the last trump blows it’s too late…

1st Thessalonians 4:16 NASB; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[CrowCross]

Crow cross you mentioned that I didn’t provide any scripture and then I did show three different scriptures from Paul showing that revelation 20:4 was a symbolic current reality in Paul’s day and then you just made a sarcastic comment.

This is the third time I’ve asked you to comment on it could you please?

I am not trying to be difficult but want to keep you accountable to your requests from me and debate in respectful fellow brother in Christ loving way.

After we are on the same team overall

Face-palm.

What ever you say Marty.