🚨 The Hidden Dualism in "Free Will" Theology 🚨

[Eleanor]

yet God accused the jews, who had the law. because the gentiles, who did not have the lw. by nature keep the law

how can this be if by nature the lost is to not be able to do good.

Keeping the law does not save, and is not the issue.
The law only convicts of sin.

Paul is establishing there that all mankind is condemned for law-breaking, of either God's law (the law) or the law of their conscience (law to themselves).

Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

 

[Eleanor]

There was sin long before the law was given. So this does not make sense

Yes, and in the context (Ro 5:12-17), that sin was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

It says they obeyed the law

It also says they violated it, "their thoughts now accusing" (Ro 2:15), which is sin and condemns them.

They did not commit adultry. They honored their parents etc etc.

People do what we would consider to be morally good all the time. Being saved is not required for this.

No one does good all the time.

Remember, thoughts are also included in this assessment.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But what I'm asking here, is whether this vein —that of the nature of and source of salvific faith— is by God or by man.

I would see it this way

If I have faith in my wife. it is not from me. it is from her. She has time and time against proved her faithfulness to me. or another way to see it is she has never given me a reason to not trust her.

in the same token, My faith in God did not come from me. I have no more capacity to know God from just my own will or knowledge than I have to trust my wife.

Like my wife, God came to me, through his word (scripture) his spirit (conviction of the spirit) his people (either hearing his word in church or from others) by seeing how others react to God. see how God changed their lives. to see God is not an impersonal being, but a personal being. to be convicted of my sinfulness though him revealing himself to me, be it by his creation or any means (romans 1) even knowing the fact that I am rightly condemned because of my sin.

so (as happened with me) God used all these things to draw me to himself. He proved to me I am guilty, He proved to me he was a God of love, and he proved to me there was only one way to redemption.

it was at that point I had to make a choice.

1. Continue is sin,
2. Continue to deny God in my heart
3. Continue to reject God
4. Become like the tac collector. fall on my knees. and cry out to Jesus

I did number 4 over 40 years ago..

did my faith come from me? No.. again, the ability to trust another being comes from that person.. be it God. our parents. or our spouse

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Keeping the law does not save, and is not the issue.

I agree. the issue is can a natural man do good deeds. or can he not do any good. as some have said

The law only convicts of sin
Paul is establishing there that all mankind is condemned for law-breaking, of either God's law (the law) or the law of their conscience (law to themselves).

Yes, But again, see the context. if a natural man can not do any good. then they can not obey any commands..

this is not about law keeping, its about the fact the jew (who are called Gods people) who had the law continually went against it. The gentile (apposed to God) by nature kept it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, and in the context (Ro 5:12-17), that sin was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

yes, But you have cain killing abel.

you have the whole world at the time of noah in all kinds of sin..

It also says they violated it, "their thoughts now accusing" (Ro 2:15), which is sin and condemns them.

No one does good all the time.

Remember, thoughts are also included in this assessment.

yes I agree 100%

 

[makesends]

There was sin long before the law was given. So this does not make sense

Yes, and in the context (Ro 5:12-17), that sin was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

It says they obeyed the law

It also says they violated it, "their thoughts now accusing," (Ro 2:15), which is sin and condemns them.

They did not commit adultry. They honored their parents etc etc.

People do what we would consider to be morally good all the time. Being saved is not required for this.

No one does good all the time.

Remember, thoughts are also included in this assessment.

In fact, not just thoughts are included in this assessment, but intents [of the heart}, which in the lost, is at enmity with Christ.

 

[Arial]

I agree. the issue is can a natural man do good deeds. or can he not do any good. as some have said

Of course the natural man can do good things on a human level. Total Depravity is not teaching that we never do anything that is good but only do evil things. But remember, "There is none good but God." So the true measure of goodness is God. Our problem is that even the good that we do is tainted by our very nature as a sinner. We can never be good enough to be reconciled to God.

Yes, But again, see the context. if a natural man can not do any good. then they can not obey any commands..

Perfect is the standard for reconciliation with God.

this is not about law keeping, its about the fact the jew (who are called Gods people) who had the law continually went against it. The gentile (apposed to God) by nature kept it.

This refers to the conscience of man, the moral compass between right and wrong, that was created in us by our Creator. Because of the fall of Adam we know both. Good and evil.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree. the issue is can a natural man do good deeds. or can he not do any good. as some have said

Yes, But again, see the context. if a natural man can not do any good. then they can not obey any commands..

this is not about law keeping, its about the fact the jew (who are called Gods people) who had the law continually went against it. The gentile (apposed to God) by nature kept it.

Actually, that is not what it is about.

It is a demonstration that all mankind is guilty of law breaking and are condemned, the Jew being guilty of breaking God's revealed law, and the Gentle being guilty of breaking the law of his conscience, therefore, all men are locked up in sin (Ro 11:32) and condemned.

 

[Eleanor]

yes, But you have cain killing abel.
you have the whole world at the time of noah in all kinds of sin..

"Law" when used by Paul refers to the Decalogue.
There was no Decalogue between Adam and Moses, and therefore, there was no sin charged against anyone (Ro 5:12-14).

 

[makesends]

"Law" when used by Paul refers to the Decalogue.
There was no Decalogue between Adam and Moses, and therefore, there was no sin charged against anyone (Ro 5:12-14).

Please explain further. Don't just leave it at that, concise though it be. Are you saying nobody before the decalogue is to pay for their sin? sins? Does God not judge anyone before the decalogue guilty of sin for the sins they do commit? Are they not responsible, for example, for trespasses against their own conscience?

Get this out of the way before they dismiss you without further consideration.

 

[Eleanor]

Please explain further. Don't just leave it at that, concise though it be. Are you saying nobody before the decalogue is to pay for their sin? sins? Does God not judge anyone before the decalogue guilty of sin for the sins they do commit? Are they not responsible, for example, for trespasses against their own conscience?

Get this out of the way before they dismiss you without further consideration.

Well, first of all, it is Scripture: Ro 5:13.
Secondly, the issue is: death is caused only by sin against the law.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
"Before the law, sin was in the world (i.e., imputed sin of Adam, Ro 5:17, 18-19), but sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Paul says that sin against the law was not charged to anyone between Adam and Moses when there was no law.
Nevertheless, "sin was in the world" because in that time all men died, which death is caused by (the law's death penalty for) sin (Ro 6:23).
So what sin was in the world that caused their deaths when there was no law to charge them with sin?
That sin was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19) which caused the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses when there was no law and, therefore, there was no sin against the law charged against them.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In fact, not just thoughts are included in this assessment, but intents [of the heart}, which in the lost, is at enmity with Christ.

yes.


but a person stranded on the ocean because their boat sank in the middle of a great storm, has the ability to chose to allow the person sent to rescue them to rescue them.

Not to save himself. if he could save himself. he would not be rescued.

But he had to trust the person who was sent. or he would be lost.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course the natural man can do good things on a human level. Total Depravity is not teaching that we never do anything that is good but only do evil things. But remember, "There is none good but God." So the true measure of goodness is God. Our problem is that even the good that we do is tainted by our very nature as a sinner. We can never be good enough to be reconciled to God.

yes.

but remember, me trusting in another person is not a good deed..

Perfect is the standard for reconciliation with God.

amen..

all have sinned and fall short of this standard.

This refers to the conscience of man, the moral compass between right and wrong, that was created in us by our Creator. Because of the fall of Adam we know both. Good and evil.

again, faith in trusting God to save us is not a good deed..

it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Actually, that is not what it is about.

It is a demonstration that all mankind is guilty of law breaking and are condemned, the Jew being guilty of breaking God's revealed law, and the Gentle being guilty of breaking the law of his conscience, therefore, all men are locked up in sin (Ro 11:32) and condemned.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 ;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 n the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Law" when used by Paul refers to the Decalogue.
There was no Decalogue between Adam and Moses, and therefore, there was no sin charged against anyone (Ro 5:12-14).

yes, but there was still sin is my point..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, first of all, it is Scripture: Ro 5:13.
Secondly, the issue is: death is caused only by sin against the law.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
"Before the law, sin was in the world (i.e., imputed sin of Adam, Ro 5:17, 18-19), but sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Paul says that sin against the law was not charged to anyone between Adam and Moses when there was no law.
Nevertheless, "sin was in the world" because in that time all men died, which death is caused by (the law's death penalty for) sin (Ro 6:23).
So what sin was in the world that caused their deaths when there was no law to charge them with sin?
That sin was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19) which caused the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses when there was no law and, therefore, there was no sin against the law charged against them.

did Jesus pays for those sins?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
But what I'm asking here, is whether this vein —that of the nature of and source of salvific faith— is by God or by man.

I would see it this way

If I have faith in my wife. it is not from me. it is from her. She has time and time against proved her faithfulness to me. or another way to see it is she has never given me a reason to not trust her.

in the same token, My faith in God did not come from me. I have no more capacity to know God from just my own will or knowledge than I have to trust my wife.

Like my wife, God came to me, through his word (scripture) his spirit (conviction of the spirit) his people (either hearing his word in church or from others) by seeing how others react to God. see how God changed their lives. to see God is not an impersonal being, but a personal being. to be convicted of my sinfulness though him revealing himself to me, be it by his creation or any means (romans 1) even knowing the fact that I am rightly condemned because of my sin.

so (as happened with me) God used all these things to draw me to himself. He proved to me I am guilty, He proved to me he was a God of love, and he proved to me there was only one way to redemption.

it was at that point I had to make a choice.

1. Continue is sin,
2. Continue to deny God in my heart
3. Continue to reject God
4. Become like the tac collector. fall on my knees. and cry out to Jesus

I did number 4 over 40 years ago..

did my faith come from me? No.. again, the ability to trust another being comes from that person.. be it God. our parents. or our spouse

Ok, let's say I accept all that and agree with it. What made you, 1) see your actual need, and 2) see that your solution is Christ, and 3) come to trust him for that?​

​

According to Romans 8, the mind governed by the flesh (not the mind governed by the spirit) is unable to please God, nor to submit to God's law. What do you do with that—do you say that the mind of the lost is somehow become governed by the Spirit in a way that is not being born again? Relate that to Ephesians 2's "dead in sin". Also note (1 Corinthians 2:14), that the natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Where does that fit into this equation?​

-------------------------------

So, you see, I don't accept all that construction you show as to how faith in God comes about. It is not the same sort of thing as faith in your wife, or in the chair you continue to sit in. Not only is it from God, in that you learn to trust him, but it is from God in the sense that the natural man is unable to grasp the necessary concepts to understand the Gospel —they are foolishness to him— so God himself has to do it by his Spirit taking up residence in the person, transforming him from death to life.

The choice you see yourself understanding, and choosing well, —while choosing well may involve much emotion and awakening and submission and repentance and so on—, that is the nature of the walk with God subsequent to salvation that has already been worked in you. You believe because God put you IN CHRIST —by the Spirit of God in you, giving you birth from above—regeneration.

The dead cannot choose Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 ;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 n the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Yes, it is a demonstration that all mankind is guilty of law breaking and are condemned, the Jew being guilty of breaking God's revealed law, and the Gentle being guilty of breaking the law of his conscience, therefore, all men are locked up in sin (Ro 11:32) and condemned (post #28).

 

[Eleanor]

yes, but there was still sin is my point..

Yes, but not their personal sin for which they were personally guilty, for there was no personal sin when there was no law to sin against, they died because of their guilt of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

 

[Eleanor]

did Jesus pays for those sins?

Jesus paid for the sin of all the elect.