Writing a book on free will

[Josheb]

I have the Institutes of the Christian Religion in my reference library. I have read a little of it but not much.

Then you've no business writing a book criticizing Calvinism, especially since God will hold you to a higher standard for doing so and it's likely to mislead its readers.

The quote I used came from a debate between prominent church leaders.

And from whence did the "prominent church leader" get it? I do hope it was not Dave Hunt. It would not be unjust to call Hunt an uneducated irrational fool and false teacher. I also hope the debate to which you're referring is not "Debating Calvinism: Two Views," with Hunt and James White. I first read that book when I was Arminian and found it sophomoric. Note 35% percent of the reviewers found fault with it.

I then found it in my reference library and cut and pasted it.

Great, then you can go back to it and look up the quote to see whether it was cited directly from Calvin's "Institutes" or another source. If it was cited from Calvin's Institutes, then - since you also have a copy of the Institutes in your library - you cna get out your copy and look up the reference and read Calvin in his own words for yourself in the full contact in which Calvin wrote those words (which is something that should have happened before the quote was posted in this thread.

Why post a third-hand report when you can go to Calvin yourself?

You do understand that is exactly what I did with both Calvin and Arminius?

Because it sums up the crux of the matter.

No, it does not. It's a quote mine that grossly misrepresents what Calvin wrote and I linked you to his Romans 9 commentary to prove it. Go back and re-read what Calvin wrote with the bullet-point list I posted in mind. You'll see that quote possess and entirely different meaning when read in that context.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I read up to half way through page 3 so far. Maybe when I have more time I will read more, and maybe if I have time I will at some point pull quotes from your book and show the weakness and falseness in them. But you are not off to a good start. First of all you use a definition of predestination that is wrong. So the entire premise is off. And second of all I suggest you take a deep dive into critical thinking. So far you have used nothing but logical fallacies, assumptions, speculations, proof texts (meaning they come from a confirmation bias, and there is no effort to expound on them from within their context, and no effort made to make sure they contradict nothing else in the Bible). You jump to conclusions from isolated comments etc.

I have fixed the definition, it now states:

Collins English Dictionary states: ...predestination is “... b. the doctrine or belief, esp associated with Calvin, that the final salvation of some of humankind is foreordained from eternity by God”, and ... b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation” (Collins 2023)

Which is a true rendition according to The Westminster Confession of Faith states it this way:

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established… God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

Westminster Divines, 2021, Of God’s Eternal Decree | The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 5 accessed 19 February 2024 < https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith >

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, it does not. It's a quote mine that grossly misrepresents what Calvin wrote and I linked you to his Romans 9 commentary to prove it. Go back and re-read what Calvin wrote with the bullet-point list I posted in mind. You'll see that quote possess and entirely different meaning when read in that context.

No, it highlights the point that I disagree with in his doctrine. Even The Westminster Confession of Faith states the same point:

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established… God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

Westminster Divines, 2021, Of God’s Eternal Decree | The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 5 accessed 19 February 2024 < https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith >

 

[Josheb]

No.

Thank you.

This is what I believe:

How is one saved? I believe through an attitude of repentance. One will not even come to the cross if they have no desire for repentance if their deeds are evil.

The problem is the Bible plainly states none seek God. None possess "an attitude of repentance." They do not come to the cross on their own. They do not desire repentance; they desire sin and self.

Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 53:2
God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there is anyone who understands, who seeks after God.

Romans 1:18-32 (excerpted for the sake of space)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them..... For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...... For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever..... and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Romans 3:11
There is none who understands; There is none who seeks out God.

Romans 3:9-11 ESV
...For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Luke 18:19
No one is good but God alone.

Luke 6:44-45
For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

John 3:16-19 NIV
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him....

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Revelation 9:18-20
A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm. The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.


All an unregenerate sinner has is his flesh and the faculties of that flesh. He has been corrupted by sin. Humanity's thoughts are only evil all the time, none understand, and none seek God. Not only do they deny God and His power, but God Himself have given over the fools who deny His existence to their lusts, the self-glorifying lusts. They worship created things, not the Creator. The love darkness and will not come into the light because their deeds will be seen for what they are. None of them are good and the do not come to the cross unless God draws them to Christ (the Greek word means drag or haul, like a fisherman hauling his net out of the water). These dead-in-sin, sinfully enslaved sinners who do not have the Spirit, who have only their flesh do not accept the things of the Spirit; they are foolishness to the God-denying fool..... and even if God were to destroy a third of the earth's population they do not repent.

Scripture is filled with passages speaking to the inability and unwillingness of sinners to come to God for salvation. The eleven passages above are just a small sample. A very poor exegesis and misuse of the whole word of God id demonstrated when the verses cited in Post 57 are read in conflict with all of the above verses. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Unregenerate sinful men cannot and do not work their way to God salvifically. God must first act in that individual before the sinner does anything. If scripture is examined with that in mind you will find there is not a single example of anyone ever coming to God for salvation where God is not already at work in his or her life for that purpose.

If you can find such an example, we'll discuss it.

Jesus showed the difference between a person whose deeds were evil and one who when seeing God’s law was trying to do right. We see the person lacking repentance here

This is why Jesus told His disciples to keep His commandments.......................

All you've done is what I cited previously: You've used Old Testament and gospel verses about covenant people who believed in God and New Testament verses about those who are already saved. It's very sloppy and very faulty exegesis. If it was done with an already-existing synergist bias, then it's not exegesis at all - it is eisegesis.

Show me the verse in which scripture reports an atheist doing what you believe.

Do it now, please.

Or acknowledge that cannot be done.

Once you've done one or the other then the conversation will progress because that long post full of selectively used scripture is a repeat of previous arguments. There's nothing new in any of it. Show me the atheist possessing "an attitude of repentance" with a desire to come to the cross of the Messiah he does not believe exists to be saved from the sin he believes does not exist. No more verses about God-believers.

 

[Josheb]

No, it highlights the point that I disagree with in his doctrine.

Quote mines never prove anything.

 

[Josheb]

Is God responsible for man's sin?

If God foreknows everybody, knew them before creation. How did He foreknow a person born to fornication? He must have in that case at least approved of the sin. Which makes God responsible for that sin at least.

....Even The Westminster Confession of Faith states the same point:

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established… God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

Westminster Divines, 2021, Of God’s Eternal Decree | The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 5 accessed 19 February 2024 < https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith >

The prejudices are showing.

The word "responsible" is nowhere found anywhere in Chapter 3, Article 1-7 of the WCF. The opening sentence in Chapter 3.1 explicitly states God is not the author of sin! Article 3 does NOT state God is responsible for man's sin. It states He is not the author of sin, did no violence to the human will, and He predestined some angels and some men to everlasting death.

Who would it be that got predestined to death?

Sinners!

Not one non-sinner gets predestined to death. Not one. None. Go back to Post #6 in the "Is God responsible for man's sin" thread and read what is posted. All people sin. All people sin and God did not author that. As a consequence of every single person sinning all people were all already predestined to death because the wages of sin is death!!! God, out of his grace and mercy chose some from the population of ALL humanity that was destined for destruction for salvation.

"CHAPTER 6​

​

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof​

​

1. 1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.
   2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
   3. They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation.
   4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
   5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
   6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal."

God is not the author of sin and nothing He ordained from eternity did any violence to the human will. God did not make anyone sin. He did predestine some to death..... but who are those people He predestined to death? Sinners! Sinners were predestined to death without God being the author of sin AND without doing violence to the human will.

You do NOT get to select and then manipulate which parts of the WCF if want to pervert for your own biases. The Westminster Confession of Faith does NOT make the same point.



Here is a very simple analogy to help you understand.

Suppose you need to replace some ball bearings in a bearing race that goes inside of some machine. I bring you a pile of oversized used bearings of I've retrieved out of the trash can - all of which are misshapen by their prior use. It's a box of imperfect oblong (not perfectly spherical) bearings that are useless as is. All they are good for is the trash bin, and that's where they've been, and where they would go simply as a matter of already-decided practice were it not for one condition.....​

​

You possess the ability to take some of the larger misshapen bearings and grind them down to the size you need so they are perfectly spherical and thereby usable.​

​

So that is exactly what you do. You pick out a few of the (already) damaged, corrupted bearings and make them new. The entire population of bearings was damaged. The entire population of bearings was corrupted. The entire population of bearings was (pre-)destined for the trash bin because that's what eventually happens to all ball bearings. The bearings have no say in which ones you select or why you select them. It does not matter whether some are less damaged, or some are more damaged. There is nothing in particular about any of the bearings you select that causes you to select them. You take the ones you want and leave the rest to their "fate," their already-decided, already-determined destination, the trash bin.​

The only differences between the analogy and scripture (and Calvinism) is that God knows in advance all the bearings will become damaged, He knows in advance which of the damaged bearing's He'll select, He makes His selection before the bearings are ever manufactured, and the bearings have a limited ability to decide what they do (but they will all become damaged).

You did not cause their damage. You are NOT the author of the damage and you have done no violence to the bearings will.

Yes, it's a limited analogy, but it illustrates how God predestining some for life does not make Him responsible for man's sin. It's not a particularly difficult thing to understand. When synergists lay aside their prejudices it's very easy to understand. I know; I used to be Arminian and before that I was Provisionist. Most, if not all the Cals here in CCAM were previously synergist . Just ask them .

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The problem is the Bible plainly states none seek God. None possess "an attitude of repentance." They do not come to the cross on their own. They do not desire repentance; they desire sin and self.

But Paul states of the man "sold under sin" (the unregenerated):

Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Christ came to set us free from that law:

Rom 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

So there are a lot of "wills" in the unregenerate, they can delight in God's law. As such when repentance is offered to a sinner they can will to change.

The evil does not will to change:

Joh 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

The one who delights in God's law, comes to the light.

Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

He did predestine some to death..... but who are those people He predestined to death?

This is the point the book is fighting. I am not writing a book saying "God is responsible for man's sin", I am writing a book against the idea that God Predestines to life or death.

 

[fastfredy0]

I am writing a book against the idea that God Predestines to life or death.

If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?


Consider: Millions of people's lives have been cut short by war, tyrannical reign, etc. before they could potentially accept Christ salvificly in the future using the supposed Free Will. How can one claim all people have "free will" when someone else's Free Will has over ridden the Free Will of said individuals?

The Arminian also recognizes (1) that God foreknows the future exhaustively, and (2) that He has created the world knowing what the future will bring. For example, before the foundation of the world, God knew that Joe would make a free decision to become a Christian. Somehow, then, before Joe was born, God knew of his free decision. So even at that time, Joe's free decision must have been inevitable. Why was it inevitable? Not because of Joe's free will, for Joe was not yet born. Not because of God's predestination, because the Arminian denies that possibility from the outset. It would seem that the inevitability in question had some source other than either Joe or God.
That is a scary possibility! In rejecting "divine determinism," the Arminian in effect embraces a determinism coming from some mysterious other source -- another god? the Devil? world history? impersonal laws? In any case, this idea certainly does not leave much room for free will. John Frame

 

[Mr GLee]

If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?

Hell is the daily sufferings we experience in the bodies of death . The appointment all of mankind makes Death never to rise to new life . Yoked with Christ he makes the daily burden lighter with a hope of a new body on the last day under the Sun

 

[Josheb]

But Paul states of the man "sold under sin" (the unregenerated):

Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Christ came to set us free from that law:

Rom 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

So there are a lot of "wills" in the unregenerate, they can delight in God's law. As such when repentance is offered to a sinner they can will to change.

The evil does not will to change:

Joh 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

The one who delights in God's law, comes to the light.

Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Most of that is true. The problem is 1) it does nothing to address the problem of total depravity, 2) it does not in any way make God responsible or culpable for sin, and 3) it is a passage written by a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. None of it applies to atheists! You've still got a hole in your exegesis because the audience affiliations are ignored. Paul was always a theist; he was never an atheist. Not only did Paul always believe in God, but as a Jewish believer, he was included in a covenant relationship with God that separated him (monergistically, btw) from all the other many and diverse theists on the planet. He was heel-bent on persecuting, prosecuting, and murdering Christians and eradicating Christianity until God saw fit to knock him off his donkey, strike him, blind, and send in subjugation to a Spirit-filled believer who would be the vehicle for radical change in Paul, whereby Paul was brought from death to life.

Paul did not ask for any of it, btw.


You have got to stop using verses about Christians to argue the conversion of an atheist. You have also got to stop using verses about covenant Jewish people to argue the conversion of the atheist. May times have I told you this is very challenging because there is very, very little in the Bible specifically about atheists (and all of it is deterministic and derogatory).

Still waiting on the verse explicitly reporting a sinfully dead and enslaved person who does not believe in God repents to the God in who he does not believe exists for sin he does not believe exists to achieve a salvation he does not exist and does it solely by way of his flesh's faculties. Why the delay?

 

[Josheb]

This is the point the book is fighting. I am not writing a book saying "God is responsible for man's sin", I am writing a book against the idea that God Predestines to life or death.

Are you suggesting God does not know who lives and who dies?

Please no equivocating, obfuscating, or delay. Just answer the question asked, please. Are you suggesting God does not know who lives and who dies?

 

[Arial]

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

To try and figure out God and His ways by the operation of a computer as you have described, is to define God from human perspective and the infinite by the finite. It is going to be wrong. To get it right or as near to right as is possible, we must go by what God tells us about Himself that is comprehensible to the finite mind, and rest there in faith. We must yield to what He says about Himself.

What you have here is God having a plan and purpose that is no plan at all, and His purposes subject to contingencies, therefore ever changing according to the actions and whims of man. You have a God who has to learn things and then act according to the things He learns. That is not a God who is omniscient, even though He tells us all over the Bible that He is and demonstrates that in our realm of time. So you are setting constraints on God in your thinking (for no one can actually put constraints on Him, like it or not)and then saying it is God who puts constraints on mankind's stories.

What you do not seem to grasp is what eternal means. What you do not seem to grasp is the I Am of God. His self existent, eternal, and sovereign otherness from us and time. There is no time in His existence. No yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He does not learn things, He knows all things and always has known all things, and He knows them because in His realm, they already are. And they already are because He ordained them to be. Everything lives and moves and has its existence in Him. We are not the center of the universe, the center of creation, God is. All things were created by Him and for Him.

 

[fastfredy0]

What you do not seem to grasp is what eternal means.

Well, who does? *giggle*
"No succession of moments", now there's a mouth full.

 

[Arial]

@FutureAndAHope

From your book:
So basically that broken down (the Collins def of predestination) means that God has before creation chosen a select group for salvation, and a select group for damnation. No matter the will of man, no matter his effort or deeds, he will neither be saved or damned based upon them, but rather assigned a destiny by God, he will be forced to accept his fate."

Here you use ad hominem language (appealing to emotion as a basis for argument) to sway the argument in a specific direction, towards your view, by the use of the phrase "forced to accept his fate", "select group", and these select groups either saved or damned, "assigned a destiny." Admittedly, almost every blog, commentary, and book written against Calvinism does exactly the same thing. But it is bad form, does not at all reflect the doctrines of grace, and as far as I am concerned, indicates the lack of anything else to move people the way they want them to go. It is all they have iow. It is done without any attempt to actually examine the doctrines or the biblical sources of it.

It ignores completely all scriptures that to the Reformed/Calvinist clearly state what they are presenting. The constant use of "elect", "chosen", "foreknown", "predestined", "called", even in many of the epistle introductions, and throughout these epistles that are being written to believers, and most of which are casually passed over in our reading.

Your statement, "no matter the will of man, no matter his efforts or deeds" exhibits two things. First that man's will is more important than God's will and that He should not do whatever He pleases, but rather that it is mandatory for Him to let man do as he pleases, or He is unjust. Therefore man defines justice for God and in that belief places a constriction on God, according to man's will. Second it takes no consideration that God is the potter and we are the clay. One lump. It tells God we are the potter, and we form ourselves how we want. And He is what then? Simply our benefactor? Beholden to us. Even though He tells us in no uncertain terms that He is the potter and it is His will and pleasure that makes of some vessels of mercy and some vessels of His wrath. Second, it makes an assertion that amounts to man's deeds being the basis for salvation.

Given that He tells us this, then to say He has no right to do that, it is not Calvinism that you argue against in your book---it is God.





Then you give a quote from Calvin. "he (God) arranges by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." You then say that the WCF states it the same way and quote the WCF.

Of God’s Eternal Decree​

1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

First of all, the WCF has nothing to do with Calvin. It is the Confession that came out of the Scottish Reformation with John Knox at the helm. Second, in what way does this support your claim as stated in your book and that I quoted above against Calvinism?

 

[Arial]

@FutureAndAHope
From your book:
"Personal Definition of Free Will
What is my definition of free will? Free will is the ability to respond or to choose not to, through what God reveals to us. It is the view that our choices are free from any predetermination by God and that human nature does not override our ability to respond to the gospel when the truth is shown to us;the will of even the unregenerate man is intact (Romans 7:19-22)."

Calvinism nowhere teaches that the human will is not intact. Therefore you are arguing a strawman against Calvinism. What Calvinism teaches in that regard is that when Adam fell, and all mankind with him, his whole being fell, including his will. It is the will that produces the movement of our actions and that is determined by our desires, always the strongest one. I.e. we see a piece of chocolate cake and we desire to eat that cake. But we also desire to not enjest those calories or that sugar. If our desire to eat the cake is greater than our desire not to eat it, we eat it. We cannot escape the fact that our desires fuel our will. That does not mean we do not have a will or that we have lost the ability to make choices, or that we freely make them. God can certainly override our desires if it furthers His purposes, or for whatever reason He may have. And that is important to remember as we go along.

If in Adam we are told in Romans chapters 1-3 that our condition in this fallen state is so radical that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, that no one seeks Him, that our desires are always wickedness (and wickedness being defined by any rebellion against our King by sinning, no matter how small or great we may consider that sin), then it is these desires we will follow. We do not sin all the time. Sometimes we do what is right and good in His sight. But we will never ever will to give up all our sins. There are more that we like than that we don't like. and the ones we don't like are because they are a detriment to us in some way; but we never don't like them because of our undivided love for God.

We cannot make ourselves perfectly righteous, nor do we have any desire to. That is why we will not choose Christ. In addition to that, and because of it we have 1 Cor telling us that man in his natural state does not understand spiritual things---those things we find in the gospel---we cannot understand them. They are foolishness to us. (1Cor 2:14). We have Jesus telling us that no one can come to Him unless the Father grants it (John 6:65) and in John 3 telling us a man has to be born again of God before he can even see the kingdom of God.

So our will is not free to choose Christ. It has the ability of choice, but it is held in bondage to sin, so it won't. God has to override that in us, and this He does through regeneration. He changes our heart from one that in its natural state in Adam, turns away from God, to a new heart in Christ who turns to God.

And what God predetermine is those He will give to His Son as an inheritance. And He predestines them to hear the voice of the shepherd and follow Him. All argument against this clear teaching throughout scripture, those pertaining to who God is, who Christ is, their sovereignty over all of creation and all that is in it, is aimed at Calvinism in its professions, but the arrow is truly aimed at God and His Christ.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Most of that is true. The problem is 1) it does nothing to address the problem of total depravity, 2) it does not in any way make God responsible or culpable for sin, and 3) it is a passage written by a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. None of it applies to atheists! You've still got a hole in your exegesis because the audience affiliations are ignored. Paul was always a theist; he was never an atheist. Not only did Paul always believe in God, but as a Jewish believer, he was included in a covenant relationship with God that separated him (monergistically, btw) from all the other many and diverse theists on the planet. He was heel-bent on persecuting, prosecuting, and murdering Christians and eradicating Christianity until God saw fit to knock him off his donkey, strike him, blind, and send in subjugation to a Spirit-filled believer who would be the vehicle for radical change in Paul, whereby Paul was brought from death to life.

Paul did not ask for any of it, btw.


You have got to stop using verses about Christians to argue the conversion of an atheist. You have also got to stop using verses about covenant Jewish people to argue the conversion of the atheist. May times have I told you this is very challenging because there is very, very little in the Bible specifically about atheists (and all of it is deterministic and derogatory).

Still waiting on the verse explicitly reporting a sinfully dead and enslaved person who does not believe in God repents to the God in who he does not believe exists for sin he does not believe exists to achieve a salvation he does not exist and does it solely by way of his flesh's faculties. Why the delay?

I have always understood that passage in Romans to refer to the person before receiving the Holy Spirit. Although we will always to a degree be corrupted by the flesh and the fallen nature, the person who is born again has power from God to overcome sin.

As Romans 8 goes on to show:

Rom 8:2-3 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


Regardless of that, I have removed the section from the book. Seeing there is some contention on Paul's meaning.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

@FutureAndAHope
From your book:
"Personal Definition of Free Will
What is my definition of free will? Free will is the ability to respond or to choose not to, through what God reveals to us. It is the view that our choices are free from any predetermination by God and that human nature does not override our ability to respond to the gospel when the truth is shown to us;the will of even the unregenerate man is intact (Romans 7:19-22)."

Calvinism nowhere teaches that the human will is not intact. Therefore you are arguing a strawman against Calvinism. What Calvinism teaches in that regard is that when Adam fell, and all mankind with him, his whole being fell, including his will. It is the will that produces the movement of our actions and that is determined by our desires, always the strongest one. I.e. we see a piece of chocolate cake and we desire to eat that cake. But we also desire to not enjest those calories or that sugar. If our desire to eat the cake is greater than our desire not to eat it, we eat it. We cannot escape the fact that our desires fuel our will. That does not mean we do not have a will or that we have lost the ability to make choices, or that we freely make them. God can certainly override our desires if it furthers His purposes, or for whatever reason He may have. And that is important to remember as we go along.

If in Adam we are told in Romans chapters 1-3 that our condition in this fallen state is so radical that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, that no one seeks Him, that our desires are always wickedness (and wickedness being defined by any rebellion against our King by sinning, no matter how small or great we may consider that sin), then it is these desires we will follow. We do not sin all the time. Sometimes we do what is right and good in His sight. But we will never ever will to give up all our sins. There are more that we like than that we don't like. and the ones we don't like are because they are a detriment to us in some way; but we never don't like them because of our undivided love for God.

We cannot make ourselves perfectly righteous, nor do we have any desire to. That is why we will not choose Christ. In addition to that, and because of it we have 1 Cor telling us that man in his natural state does not understand spiritual things---those things we find in the gospel---we cannot understand them. They are foolishness to us. (1Cor 2:14). We have Jesus telling us that no one can come to Him unless the Father grants it (John 6:65) and in John 3 telling us a man has to be born again of God before he can even see the kingdom of God.

So our will is not free to choose Christ. It has the ability of choice, but it is held in bondage to sin, so it won't. God has to override that in us, and this He does through regeneration. He changes our heart from one that in its natural state in Adam, turns away from God, to a new heart in Christ who turns to God.

And what God predetermine is those He will give to His Son as an inheritance. And He predestines them to hear the voice of the shepherd and follow Him. All argument against this clear teaching throughout scripture, those pertaining to who God is, who Christ is, their sovereignty over all of creation and all that is in it, is aimed at Calvinism in its professions, but the arrow is truly aimed at God and His Christ.

When I say the will of man is intact, I am meaning the desire to do a thing. One may have a desire to God god's way upon hearing His word, but the ability to perform it is not in man. That is the power of the cross, it gives the ability to both go God's way and understand the things of God.

The verse you quoted:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Refers to the cross, and any other thing of God, which a natural man would not understand. This is true of the sinner. Because they have not received God's enlightenment they are in the dark about these things. But if you look to the book of John, who receives God's enlightenment but is the one willing to obey God's word.

John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."


I believe there is a step man takes before God's enlightenment occurs. Obedience comes "before" the Father's love. Iam not saying you work your way to salvation, but rather on hearing of God's grace, we desire change and to go God's way.

 

[Josheb]

I have always understood that passage in Romans to refer to the person before receiving the Holy Spirit.

The word "now," means now.

Romans 7:17-20
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The word "now" means now. Understand the text as written.

Romans 7:24-8:1
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The word "now means now. Read and understand scripture as written.

Regardless of that, I have removed the section from the book. Seeing there is some contention on Paul's meaning.

Good. I have respect for that. Commendable.

Now engage the rest of what the Cals here are saying because that is not the only error contained in the book (and most of your ops). Based on the many red herrings and straw men, it is very clear from the posts there is a great lack understanding Calvinism.

 

[Arial]

When I say the will of man is intact, I am meaning the desire to do a thing. One may have a desire to God god's way upon hearing His word, but the ability to perform it is not in man. That is the power of the cross, it gives the ability to both go God's way and understand the things of God.

The will of a person is part of that person. It is just as fallen, alienated from God as all the rest of him. And that fallen man's will is always determined by that fallen man's mind and desires. The human will is not an island somewhere within Him that still reaches out to His enemy for salvation from his enemy. And God is his enemy according to Romans 1,2, and 3. Not only that but mankind is God's enemy. That He would save any is ungraspable, and is grace from the first page of Scripture to the last.

It is what was done on the cross that grants to this corrupt creature, man, to desire God because he is able to understand. A change took place in the person's very being (that is why it is called regeneration or born again) that nothing in man is possible or even willing, to do. And the cross did much more than supply abilities. Though I do not believe that you would call His sacrifice hypothetical, in practice that is what you statement makes it. Hypothetical in the sense that it leaves it one dimensional. He died so now we can understand spiritual things and obey God.

In fact it was a war won, and a defeat of the enemy that sends us to hell and the wrath of God, never to be reconciled to Him.