Whoever is born of God cannot sin?

[ShepherdsPie]

I think what Paul is stressing is that the regenerated person cannot commit the sin that leads to death.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 John 5:16.

Yes, that’s what I was considering—that the Elect cannot commit the unforgivable sin. Why? ….because the Elect have already been justified (pronounced not guilty).
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:30 (NKJV)

 

[Alive]

Well if Paul had an issue with sin (Romans 7) everyone does. For our entire lives until we die and are glorified.

Yes..this is true. If we are hearing the Lord, we improve…sanctification…but never free from the flesh until the end.
A mere unholy fleeting thought is sin.

 

[Carbon]

Yes, that’s what I was considering—that the Elect cannot commit the unforgivable sin. Why? ….because the Elect have already been justified (pronounced not guilty).
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:30 (NKJV)

Yes, and Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Yes, and Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4.

View attachment 934

 

[Carbon]

Because we have the law of sin in us, we do the things we do not want to do. But because we are regenerated, we can say: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Romans 7:22.
So all the good we do, the working out of our salvation, "all the working out of salvation on our part" is the effect of God's working in us.

 

[Carbon]

What is the meaning of this? Whoever is born of God cannot sin. Yet in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:1 below, it seems to say we sin

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:8

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1.


Thoughts? And reasoning?

So, the sins we do that we do not want to do are sins we will do we are glorified. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Romans 7:22.
We still have the law of sin in our members.
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23.
And only those who are God's true children (the elect) hate sin. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24.

So John wouldn't be stressing that we are sinless, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.
But as I said, I do believe he is stressing the fact that a regenerate person cannot commit the sin that is unto death. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 John 5:16.

In my understanding that is the only logical conclusion, to: Say he cannot sin because he is born of God.

 

[Carbon]

Thoughts? And reasoning?

More of my reasoning considering whoever is born of God cannot sin:

Is it possible to conceive of God's predestination of the elect to be defeated?
If saints can fall away and be finally lost, then the called and the justified may fall away and be lost. But isn't that what the apostles say will not and cannot happen - since those who God calls and justifies He also glorifies? And glorification is nothing less than the conformity to the image of God's own son. Isn't this what Paul is teaching? who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. Phil 3:21.

To deny the preservation of the saints destroys Paul's teachings.

So once again, I will leave it with this:

I think what Paul is stressing is that the regenerated person cannot commit the sin that leads to death.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 John 5:16.

 

[makesends]

I get the sense it means “does not” sin

either it happens or it does not happen.

“Practices not” does not, seem right.

I think you'd have a hard time showing that it means "does not sin", since the context, by the same writer, says that nobody is without sin.

Regardless, the textus receptus, even if it does not agree with the verb forms, is not the final authority.

 

[Red Baker]

So, you believe the born-again cannot sin?

Even though Paul speaks of it in Romans 7. He does the things he does not want to do, etc...

Greetings Carbon,

Our new man cannot sin, the old man cannot do righteous, it's an internal battle with all the godly, who have both the old and the new man with them.

As you well know, the new man is created after the image of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, which cannot sin, impossible~the old man, which is Adam's nature after the fall, is exceeding wicked that is in this body of sin and death that we all live in.

Romans 7:18-21~"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present (in the new man) with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

There are two wills in every believer, one that to delight and serve the law of God; the other hates and wars against righteousness. Through our new man we can have present victory, but full deliverance is yet to come from this opposing war, when we shall drop this body of sin and death and received our glorified body of power and glory.

Remember I clearly said:

All Christians sin, as this epistle declares from its first verses, but not without grief. Any person that can continue in a life of sin of any kind shows they are not saved. There is no comfort for such people in 1st John to be found

God's sons can be great sinners before and even after conversion, (like David, Peter, etc.) but they repent and reform.

It is our new man that cannot sin, the old does nothing but sinning.

Does this help, or, do you need me to go more into this question of yours?

Consider these articles: Are There One or Two Natures in the Christian? | Dr Peter Masters

https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPaths/hot/

 

[makesends]

Greetings Carbon,

Our new man cannot sin, the old man cannot do righteous, it's an internal battle with all the godly, who have both the old and the new man with them.

As you well know, the new man is created after the image of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, which cannot sin, impossible~the old man, which is Adam's nature after the fall, is exceeding wicked that is in this body of sin and death that we all live in.


There are two wills in every believer, one that to delight and serve the law of God; the other hates and wars against righteousness. Through our new man we can have present victory, but full deliverance is yet to come from this opposing war, when we shall drop this body of sin and death and received our glorified body of power and glory.

Remember I clearly said:

It is our new man that cannot sin, the old does nothing but sinning.

Does this help, or, do you need me to go more into this question of yours?

Consider these articles: Are There One or Two Natures in the Christian? | Dr Peter Masters

https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPaths/hot/

To me, this ignores grace —the fact that we are 'not yet' the completed beings that God spoke into existence —'not yet' the members of the Bride of Christ. What we are, is, IN CHRIST. Our whole person is in Him. I don't deny the war and the 'old man' is still there. But I've got a problem with the inferences people will draw from the notion of 'two natures' and 'two wills'. We still always do only what we will to do. We don't choose between wills.

 

[Red Baker]

To me, this ignores grace —the fact that we are 'not yet' the completed beings that God spoke into existence —'not yet' the members of the Bride of Christ. What we are, is, IN CHRIST. Our whole person is in Him. I don't deny the war and the 'old man' is still there. But I've got a problem with the inferences people will draw from the notion of 'two natures' and 'two wills'. We still always do only what we will to do. We don't choose between wills.

The two nature's which every believer possess does not even come close to ignore grace~not sure why you think this.

"the fact that we are 'not yet' the completed beings that God spoke into existence"~Our new man is, yet we still live in a body of sin and death. God does nothing with our old man, but will destroy it, replace it with a body like Christ now possess.

~'not yet' the members of the Bride of Christ~never said we were not, of course we are, our life is now hid with Christ in God~very safe place to be. Colossians 3:3.

"What we are, is, IN CHRIST. Our whole person is in Him"~ This is true now legally in our new man. One day, it will be visibly true eternally.
"I don't deny the war and the 'old man' is still there. But I've got a problem with the inferences people will draw from the notion of 'two natures' and 'two wills'. If you do not deny this, then pray to tell me how do you account for this warfare, if there are not two natures with every child of God. Please consider:

Galatians 5:16 ~ This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

What does it mean to walk in the Spirit? This question and its answer should be important. This walking in the Spirit is not some mysterious phenomenon that is hard to figure out. It is only possible for those born again and baptized (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 2:38; 5:32). It is a choice to walk in the Spirit, for Paul directed believers to do it (5:25; Eph 5:18). It is doing those things taught and required by the Holy Spirit of God, which can be added to faith (5:22-23; 6:8; Rom 12:1-2; Eph 5:8-10; II Pet 1:5-8). It is not doing sinful things that grieve and quench the Spirit (Eph 4:30; I Thess 5:19). The simple but stark contrast is obvious here – crucify the flesh and walk in the Spirit. It means to put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph 4:20-24; Col 3:5-15).

There are two principles in every child of God, and we choose one and reject the other. We cannot do it perfectly, but we are certainly not at the whims of our flesh (5:17).

Galatians 5:17 ~ For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.​

There are two natures, principles, forces in each regenerated child of God – the flesh and the Spirit – they are great enemies that fight and war against each other with different desires.

The Holy Spirit of God operates in conjunction with our spiritual or new man against our flesh or old man, which we received by our first birth as the natural man depraved in sin. They are entirely opposed to one another, which makes the child of God schizophrenic, with conflicting attitudes, thoughts, words, and actions that he must rule to act like a Christian.

It is not that we can never do good and right things at all, but rather that we can never do good and right things as we would like to do them, because of this internal opposition.

Paul described this internal conflict and inability to always do what is right (Rom 7:7-25).

Instead of applying we cannot do the things that we would to the flesh restraining the Spirit from good, the context of 5:16 indicates that the Spirit also restrains the flesh from evil!

​

 

[makesends]

The two nature's which every believer possess does not even come close to ignore grace~not sure why you think this.

"the fact that we are 'not yet' the completed beings that God spoke into existence"~Our new man is, yet we still live in a body of sin and death. God does nothing with our old man, but will destroy it, replace it with a body like Christ now possess.

~'not yet' the members of the Bride of Christ~never said we were not, of course we are, our life is now hid with Christ in God~very safe place to be. Colossians 3:3.

"What we are, is, IN CHRIST. Our whole person is in Him"~ This is true now legally in our new man. One day, it will be visibly true eternally.
"I don't deny the war and the 'old man' is still there. But I've got a problem with the inferences people will draw from the notion of 'two natures' and 'two wills'. If you do not deny this, then pray to tell me how do you account for this warfare, if there are not two natures with every child of God. Please consider:

Galatians 5:16 ~ This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

What does it mean to walk in the Spirit? This question and its answer should be important. This walking in the Spirit is not some mysterious phenomenon that is hard to figure out. It is only possible for those born again and baptized (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 2:38; 5:32). It is a choice to walk in the Spirit, for Paul directed believers to do it (5:25; Eph 5:18). It is doing those things taught and required by the Holy Spirit of God, which can be added to faith (5:22-23; 6:8; Rom 12:1-2; Eph 5:8-10; II Pet 1:5-8). It is not doing sinful things that grieve and quench the Spirit (Eph 4:30; I Thess 5:19). The simple but stark contrast is obvious here – crucify the flesh and walk in the Spirit. It means to put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph 4:20-24; Col 3:5-15).

There are two principles in every child of God, and we choose one and reject the other. We cannot do it perfectly, but we are certainly not at the whims of our flesh (5:17).

Galatians 5:17 ~ For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.​

There are two natures, principles, forces in each regenerated child of God – the flesh and the Spirit – they are great enemies that fight and war against each other with different desires.

The Holy Spirit of God operates in conjunction with our spiritual or new man against our flesh or old man, which we received by our first birth as the natural man depraved in sin. They are entirely opposed to one another, which makes the child of God schizophrenic, with conflicting attitudes, thoughts, words, and actions that he must rule to act like a Christian.

It is not that we can never do good and right things at all, but rather that we can never do good and right things as we would like to do them, because of this internal opposition.

Paul described this internal conflict and inability to always do what is right (Rom 7:7-25).

Instead of applying we cannot do the things that we would to the flesh restraining the Spirit from good, the context of 5:16 indicates that the Spirit also restrains the flesh from evil!

​

What I had said was not to disagree with you, but to point out the grace by which we live while in this carcass. We are repeatedly, by God's longsuffering, returning to the vomit, and that is how God shows us our inability, and demonstrating to us that our salvation —in fact, our very being— is not in us, but in him. Our life continues by this grace of God.

"Not yet" is just part of "Already, but not yet".

 

[makesends]

I’m not too sure you can add “practices” or “continues” in there.
The sense seems more speaking of being raised from the dead without sin.
There is no sin in those raised to life eternal.
Anyone born of God does not sin.

If you are speaking of 1 John 3:8, I didn't add the word, "practices", though I changed the English tense to fit the sentence I wrote —the Greek says, "practicing". The "continues" is implied within the argument, and mentioned in affirmation/definition of the sense of the Greek present tense. 1 John 3:8 Interlinear: he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

 

[makesends]

Yes, that’s what I was considering—that the Elect cannot commit the unforgivable sin. Why? ….because the Elect have already been justified (pronounced not guilty).
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:30 (NKJV)

I think it worthwhile to mention that Christ did not use the term, 'unforgivable sin', (nor to my knowledge is the term used in Scripture), but only said that it would not be forgiven of them. We have established an institution of a concept that is (in our minds) considered in and of itself, without particular context. I'm not so sure that it is the fact of the parameters we establish for it, that the sin is not forgivable.

More and more I find myself needing to consider God's POV about things. I've been in SS Classes where the entire session is about whether this or that is [categorically] right or wrong, with many perspectives and scripture brought to bear. I agree that 'situation ethics' is false, but, why are we driven to decide such things, as though it is our performance being our contribution that recommends us to God, instead of our pursuit of Christ being our very life?

 

[CrowCross]

What is the meaning of this? Whoever is born of God cannot sin. Yet in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:1 below, it seems to say we sin

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:8

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1.


Thoughts? And reasoning?

"Whoever is born of God cannot sin."

I always thought that verse was interesting as all christians still sin.

It must have something to do with Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

We sin but have been forgiven.

 

[makesends]

"Whoever is born of God cannot sin."

I always thought that verse was interesting as all christians still sin.

It must have something to do with Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

We sin but have been forgiven.

I think the Greek/Jewish mindset as understood within the "continuous action" present tense answers the question. It is the practice of sin —in English, "the sinning", or "living in sin", or "continuing to be sinning"— that we cannot do. "Whoever is born of God is not able to continue to sin." The Greek is pretty clear: "...sin not practices..." & "...not he is able to continue sinning."

 

[CrowCross]

I think the Greek/Jewish mindset as understood within the "continuous action" present tense answers the question. It is the practice of sin —in English, "the sinning", or "living in sin", or "continuing to be sinning"— that we cannot do. "Whoever is born of God is not able to continue to sin." The Greek is pretty clear: "...sin not practices..." & "...not he is able to continue sinning."

I have no problem with that.
If a "christian"...notice the quotation marks...claims to have become a believer washed by the blood of Christ there will be a change in their lifestyle. If there is no change one has to wonder if they're really saved.

 

[fastfredy0]

I have to add what seems implied, then, that if we are NOT confessing our sins, he has NOT forgiven us, nor cleansed us, nor (according to 3:8) do we remain IN HIM. The Greek of verse 9 places the already completed action of the forgiveness CONTINGENT on the confessing. That does not imply that the confessing merits the forgiveness, but does imply that if one is not confessing his sins, he is not forgiven, nor cleansed.

... another unforgivable sin, the sin of not asking forgiveness of sin?
Playing lawyer .... question: A Christian guy commits a sin and an hour later is hit by a truck and is killed. This accident occurs before asking forgiveness. Is that guy not forgiven and goes to hell?

Question: Can I play the safety prayer and asks for forgiveness of future sins?

Question: I unknowingly sin and though I ask for forgiveness for things I did not know I did, am I forgiven?

 

[CrowCross]

... another unforgivable sin, the sin of not asking forgiveness of sin?
Playing lawyer .... question: A Christian guy commits a sin and an hour later is hit by a truck and is killed. This accident occurs before asking forgiveness. Is that guy not forgiven and goes to hell?

Question: Can I play the safety prayer and asks for forgiveness of future sins?

Question: I unknowingly sin and though I ask for forgiveness for things I did not know I did, am I forgiven?

I believe the bible teaches ALL of our sins were naild to the cross...past, present and future.

 

[makesends]

... another unforgivable sin, the sin of not asking forgiveness of sin?
Playing lawyer .... question: A Christian guy commits a sin and an hour later is hit by a truck and is killed. This accident occurs before asking forgiveness. Is that guy not forgiven and goes to hell?

Question: Can I play the safety prayer and asks for forgiveness of future sins?

Question: I unknowingly sin and though I ask for forgiveness for things I did not know I did, am I forgiven?

1 John 1:9 "If we are confessing our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven..."

If we are confessing (continual action, "in the habit of acknowledging"), then he is faithful (to accomplish what he set out to do) and just (the cross) to have already forgiven (completed action in the past @2000 years ago, or even from the foundation of the world).

The notion that this depends on us is laughable.

BUT, the implication of the Greek subjunctive (here I represented it with the "if-then" statement) is that if we are not confessing, he will not have already forgiven us. This is no point-in-time effort on our part, but an attitude and habit.