Who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

[Runningman]

You see no difference between the reason for the good works, between those without faith and those with faith? Faith itself is different.

One person believes, and even thinks themself to have accepted Christ into their heart. But without the faith the Spirit of God gives, it is a false belief. So with the good works and obedience: Living up to one's conscience, or doing what one thinks they should, and all other aspects of good works have a certain result and reward for this life, but otherwise are useless —compliance is not submission.

"All that is not of faith is sin."

It depends what God asked us to do. Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do isn't really the idea in my perspective. We are doing the specific things He asks to do even if it's just saying a prayer or reading the Bible, the point is obedience. There is a relationship with God involved in this and it isn't going to be the same for everyone.

If God says, "Say a prayer" then this is where faith and works take effect, but can God also use people for His own good purpose who do not necessarily trust and obey Him? Yes of course. I believe faith is tantamount to trust... faith or lack thereof doesn't really force someone to do anything since even those of faith can disobey God.

 

[makesends]

It depends what God asked us to do. Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do isn't really the idea in my perspective. We are doing the specific things He asks to do even if it's just saying a prayer or reading the Bible, the point is obedience. There is a relationship with God involved in this and it isn't going to be the same for everyone.

If God says, "Say a prayer" then this is where faith and works take effect, but can God also use people for His own good purpose who do not necessarily trust and obey Him? Yes of course. I believe faith is tantamount to trust... faith or lack thereof doesn't really force someone to do anything since even those of faith can disobey God.

Who said anything about "Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do"? And who said anything about forcing someone to do anything?

Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

To you, apparently, there is no difference.

 

[STAND]

You see no difference between the reason for the good works, between those without faith and those with faith? Faith itself is different.

One person believes, and even thinks themself to have accepted Christ into their heart. But without the faith the Spirit of God gives, it is a false belief. So with the good works and obedience: Living up to one's conscience, or doing what one thinks they should, and all other aspects of good works have a certain result and reward for this life, but otherwise are useless —compliance is not submission.

"All that is not of faith is sin."

Amen.

Faith is a gift.

Spiritual things are not comprehended by the natural man.

The natural man has no faith.

 

[Runningman]

Who said anything about "Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do"?

Let's see. What is God's will for you right now? Do you know? If you were to ask, would you get an answer that you would be able to discern? There isn't an instruction manual for this, it's an experience. If you know you know.

And who said anything about forcing someone to do anything?

This is called a discussion. Please feel free to answer my questions and statements any way you wish.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

Do the "unregenerate" get help from the Spirit though?

To you, apparently, there is no difference.

Big difference.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Who said anything about "Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do"?

Let's see. What is God's will for you right now? Do you know?

Depends on which 'God's will' you are talking about. You mean his command, or what will happen? Or are you one of those who believe in divination? —But you still haven't answered my question.

makesends said:
And who said anything about forcing someone to do anything?

If you were to ask, would you get an answer that you would be able to discern? There isn't an instruction manual for this, it's an experience. If you know you know.

This is called a discussion. Please feel free to answer my questions and statements any way you wish.

Please feel free to answer my questions. I'm not dancing to your tune.

makesends said:
Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

Do the "unregenerate" get help from the Spirit though?

Big difference.

What do you mean by "help"? What help they get is according to God's purposes, if that is what you are asking —not theirs, though they may think so.

 

[Runningman]

makesends said:
Who said anything about "Hoping and praying we're just getting lucky doing the things God wants us to do"?

Depends on which 'God's will' you are talking about. You mean his command, or what will happen? Or are you one of those who believe in divination? —But you still haven't answered my question.

makesends said:
And who said anything about forcing someone to do anything?

Your questions are rhetorical and doesn't merit a direct response or a discussion. It certainly wasn't me who said it.

Please feel free to answer my questions. I'm not dancing to your tune.

I am not dancing to your tune either.

makesends said:
Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

What do you mean by "help"? What help they get is according to God's purposes, if that is what you are asking —not theirs, though they may think so.

You said the "Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express."

The Bible says the Spirit "helps" in Romans 8:26. I seemed to have wrongly assumed you knew that. So what do you mean by referring to a verse that talks about the Spirit helping us?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

What do you mean by "help"? What help they get is according to God's purposes, if that is what you are asking —not theirs, though they may think so.

You said the "Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express."

The Bible says the Spirit "helps" in Romans 8:26. I seemed to have wrongly assumed you knew that. So what do you mean by referring to a verse that talks about the Spirit helping us?

I was pointing out the difference between your notion of help, and the biblical teaching about the Spirit helping us.

You, as in your notions of salvation, (not to mention your self-deterministic worldview), think that our efforts add to those of the Spirit of God for a grander total. But no, we do as he does IN US. He's not here to help us, but, like Christ, to accomplish God's purposes —not to "help" us as we desire, but as he intended all along.

 

[Runningman]

makesends said:
Just as an example of what I'm talking about, "if God says, 'Say a prayer'", the unregenerate is only making noises in his head to pray, while those in Christ have the Spirit of God himself making intercession for them with an intensity that mere words can't express.

What do you mean by "help"? What help they get is according to God's purposes, if that is what you are asking —not theirs, though they may think so.

I was pointing out the difference between your notion of help, and the biblical teaching about the Spirit helping us.

You, as in your notions of salvation, (not to mention your self-deterministic worldview), think that our efforts add to those of the Spirit of God for a grander total. But no, we do as he does IN US. He's not here to help us, but, like Christ, to accomplish God's purposes —not to "help" us as we desire, but as he intended all along.

I think the bottom line is that God isn't going to force any one to do anything. Why would there be a judgement for people who did or didn't do what God tried to help them with?

 

[makesends]

I think the bottom line is that God isn't going to force any one to do anything. Why would there be a judgement for people who did or didn't do what God tried to help them with?

I guess you mean, "bottom line" as far as the question(s) we are considering? You will not be able to support "that God isn't going to force any one to do anything" from Scripture, though I agree that usually he doesn't FORCE compliance.

You probably think what is common reasoning among self-determinists, that God determining all things is God forcing all things, and in particular, God FORCING creatures to do what they do, bypassing their wills. I hope you can see how ludicrous that notion is.

Notice how atheist scientists see the universe: They have no problem with the question of whether or not we are willed creatures —they agree we are— but they also easily see how our every decision is determined by our circumstances, our desires, our background, and myriad other causes. The reason they think this way is not that they are unbelievers, but because logic demands that it is so. Cause and effect is pervasive. There is nothing truly spontaneous except first cause. You and most reasoning people actually think this way, too —I bet you even consider your will more than active and capable within that framework— but when, in the mind, GOD is brought up and placed at the head of all other causes, suddenly self-determinism raises its voice and cries out in protest!​

Regardless, the idea that the bottom line is the question of God forcing or not forcing anyone to do anything, is mistaken. The bottom line is God being at the head of causation, and the Scriptures saying so. That we do actually choose, is beyond question. But what the fact that we do choose implies to modern human thinking is a perversion of logic, which is a result of a very human mindset, which I call Self-Determinism.

Nobody doubts that we choose. The question is HOW do we choose? We are CAUSED to do so. And, again, you will be unable to show from logic or Scripture, that our choices even can be real, apart from God establishing them.

 

[Hobie]

I think the bottom line is that God isn't going to force any one to do anything. Why would there be a judgement for people who did or didn't do what God tried to help them with?

Its like a marriage, you dont force anyone to join you in a relationship, and thats why God asks us to choose this relationship with Him, and from there it grows..

 

[Eleanor]

Its like a marriage, you dont force anyone to join you in a relationship, and thats why God asks us to choose this relationship with Him, and from there it grows..

God must first give us desire for the relationship with him before we will choose it.
Absent his working that desire in us, no one chooses relationship with him (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14).

 

[Hobie]

God must first give us desire for the relationship with him before we will choose it.
Absent his working that desire in us, no one chooses relationship with him (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14).

I like that, the work of the Holy Spirit..

 

[Hobie]

No only does it put the desire before us but does the work of transformation when we choose Christ...