What Is Impossible With Men Is Possible With God.

[Hazelelponi]

Yes, He is present in creation.

The question is "possible."
Possible implies active agency where there are multiple choices and multiple outcomes depending on local variables in real time.

I actually thought that answered both questions, both the possible and the impossible.

I do suppose I might have missed something entirely though so I will stay out of any participatory role.

Thanks for answering though, I do suppose I just missed something.

 

[makesends]

I actually thought that answered both questions, both the possible and the impossible.

I do suppose I might have missed something entirely though so I will stay out of any participatory role.

Thanks for answering though, I do suppose I just missed something.

Please don't stay out of it. I enjoy your counterpoint (to put it in musical terms).

 

[makesends]

Yes, He is present in creation.

The question is "possible."
Possible implies active agency where there are multiple choices and multiple outcomes depending on local variables in real time.

Conversely, "possible" implies ONLY what CAN HAPPEN. That humans infer multiple choices and multiple outcomes within variables is actually irrelevant to the facts. As Murphy would have us know, if something can happen, it will happen. If it does (did) not happen, it is because, for some reason, it could not (have) happen(ed).

If "agency" implies multiple options AND multiple outcomes 'within variables' —not sure if you mean to be speaking of 'choice' and 'will' here, or if you mentioned "choices" meaning, "possibilities", nor am I sure what you are getting at by, "within variables"— then you are talking according to the human mindset, that assumes possibilities abound and that options within choices are all really possible. I've heard nobody prove that any (but one) option in any single choice is more than illusion. Only whatever ends up getting chosen was possible. (And, unlike the claims of the free-willers, one does really choose between options, real or illusion though they be, and is responsible for those choices.)

True, "agency" implies multiple perceived options. But I think it implies more than that —it implies action upon and within a larger reality than oneself, which is why I don't like the word "agency" ascribed to God. God is not like us, mere agents. In the end, it is all of God's doing.

 

[Dave]

I have not been meaning to override or improve on statements upon which we logically depend, but just to point out a different perspective, concerning his nature, and to recommend a certain skepticism toward our mental constructions.

The Simplicity of God, for example, (if valid) demands that he IS (in our language) his character and attributes, which makes it superfluous to say he is bound by them. I don't see that as bypassing the language used in Scripture.

Off topic, I suppose, but it keeps occurring to me that God is precisely accurate in Scripture, even when using anthropomorphisms, but that we look at them backwards, understanding them only from our perspective.

@makesends

I just say the word bound because people have the impression that He is God and can do anything in it's broadest context. It kind of keeps the context in order. He is bound by His nature as we are bound by ours until we are set free. As delivered from the power of sin, we are still free to do evil if we choose, because we are inherently evil, and sinful, and not inherently good like He is. I don't think that He is capable of doing evil like we can.

I ran into this response and wondered if it sums it up.

"God's power, or omnipotence, is not absolute in the sense that he can do anything, but rather that he can do anything that is logically possible."

I would only add, 'even if it seems logically impossible from our limited perspective.'

Bad or good way to say it?

Dave

 

[makesends]

@makesends

I just say the word bound because people have the impression that He is God and can do anything in it's broadest context. It kind of keeps the context in order. He is bound by His nature as we are bound by ours until we are set free. As delivered from the power of sin, we are still free to do evil if we choose, because we are inherently evil, and sinful, and not inherently good like He is. I don't think that He is capable of doing evil like we can.

I ran into this response and wondered if it sums it up.

"God's power, or omnipotence, is not absolute in the sense that he can do anything, but rather that he can do anything that is logically possible."

I would only add, 'even if it seems logically impossible from our limited perspective.'

Bad or good way to say it?

Dave

I guess I'm saying that if indeed it is logically self-contradictory, it doesn't matter what we think. God has no interest in such foolishness.

If, by "Logically Impossible" —that is, "seems impossible to us"— because WE don't know God's facts, then I agree.

 

[QVQ]

I do suppose I might have missed something entirely though so I will stay out of any participatory role.

It is hard to express
Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the universe."
It is akin to that.
Does God play dice with the universe in that He could choose X or Y or Z at any give point in time and space?
That is what is meant by "all things are possible."

Does God have an infinite choice (all possible") within space (things)
Yes, but does He act as agent at any or all points in time and space?

 

[Hazelelponi]

It is hard to express
Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the universe."
It is akin to that.
Does God play dice with the universe in that He could choose X or Y or Z at any give point in time and space?
That is what is meant by "all things are possible."

Does God have an infinite choice (all possible") within space (things)
Yes, but does He act as agent at any or all points in time and space?

What is the definition of agent?

And how deep into logic do you want to go as opposed to Scripture itself?

 

[Dave]

What is the definition of agent?

Am I imagining this or has that question come up a few times in the past? I think I remember it in the Holy Spirit as the agent of baptism discussion also.

Dave

 

[Hazelelponi]

Am I imagining this or has that question come up a few times in the past? I think I remember it in the Holy Spirit as the agent of baptism discussion also.

Dave

It's always asked and answered, it's been spoken of in this thread too. I am asking again so I can get a quick take on his in specific so I'm making sure we are using the same definition.

I wasn't planning on arguing definition I just wanted to be sure I was using his definition.

I can certainly use my own definition, but I have seen where conflicting definitions lead to confusion. I just wanted to be sure.

Wasn't trying to annoy..

 

[QVQ]

What is the definition of agent?

And how deep into logic do you want to go as opposed to Scripture itself?

As deep into philosphy as I want go is to conclude that if God could choose from several options, there isn't anyway that we could know that.
It would be as @makesends states, "what has happened in the only thing that could have happened." And what will happen in the only thing also

Scripture is the entire quote, in context, about salvation.

 

[makesends]

What is the definition of agent?

And how deep into logic do you want to go as opposed to Scripture itself?

What?? Does logic oppose Scripture? (Just kidding)

 

[Hazelelponi]

@QVQ

I was going to say my husband agrees with @makesends frequently I think.

At any rate good night.

 

[Dave]

It's always asked and answered, it's been spoken of in this thread too. I am asking again so I can get a quick take on his in specific so I'm making sure we are using the same definition.

I wasn't planning on arguing definition I just wanted to be sure I was using his definition.

I can certainly use my own definition, but I have seen where conflicting definitions lead to confusion. I just wanted to be sure.

Wasn't trying to annoy..

Hey @Hazelelponi

It wasn't annoying. Sorry if my post sounded that way. I actually wrote that post with a smirk on my face. I was leaning towards me being crazy and imagining it. Thanks for bailing me out.

Dave