What is Heresy?

[JesusFan]

Has he responded to Schreiner?

Also very important in this dialoge would be
The Future of Justification by John Piper

 

[JesusFan]

That is untrue. Have you read the posts in this thread? Have you read the threads to which I linked you?

I have rad all of them, and notice that you seem to be misunderstanding them in some areas of disagreement, as again, those such as ones posted about earlier to not deny the Cross, salvation, second coming event etc

 

[JesusFan]

That is untrue. Have you read the posts in this thread? Have you read the threads to which I linked you?

Lets take your listed points one at a time here my Brother

• What is the orthodox doctrine on Jesus? What is orthodox Christian Christology? Put it in as few words as you can but answer the question asked, please.

Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity, the One who was and is God incarnated into human flesh, the One with 2 natures, and right now is the eternal God man

• What is the orthodox teaching on salvation? Are works believed to save in orthodox Christian doctrine?
• Both Covenant and Dispy theology would agree that we are saved by Grace alone received thru Faith alone due to the Psa atonement of the Lord Jesus done on behalf of His saved persons , and both agree that good works would be the fruit and evidence of salvation, but not opart of the cause
• 
  
• What is the orthodox teaching in ecclesiology? Does God have two peoples in orthodox Christian doctrine?
• Both would ffirm the only saved now would be in the Church, saved jews and Gentiles who received jesus as savior and Lord
• What are the common views held by all the accepted Christian eschatologies? Do any of them beside Dispensational Premillennialism separate the rapture from the second coming? Do any of them think modern Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology (beside DPism)?
• Dispy has the pretrib rature, but there are those holding to also mid and post trib rapture views
• Which Christian theology (beside DPism) produces and promotes false prognosticators?
• Interesting discussion

 

[Josheb]

N.T. Wright's response to Thomas Schreiner centers on fundamental disagreements regarding the nature and meaning of justification, the role of good works, and the imputation of Christ's righteousness.
Key points of Wright's response to Schreiner:

• Nature of Justification: Wright argues that justification is a forensic (law court) declaration by God that someone is part of his covenant people (ecclesiology), which includes forgiveness of sins. Schreiner, while acknowledging ecclesiological implications, insists justification is primarily a soteriological issue concerning the forgiveness of sins and being declared righteous before God as an individual.
• Imputation of Righteousness: Wright rejects the traditional Protestant concept of "imputation" (Christ's righteousness being transferred to the believer) as a "category mistake," arguing righteousness is not a "substance or a gas" that can be passed around the courtroom. Schreiner argues that imputation is a vital biblical concept, answering the question of how a righteous God can declare ungodly sinners righteous.
• Role of Works in Final Justification: This is a major point of contention. Wright holds that "final justification" at the last judgment will be "in accordance with" a believer's Spirit-inspired works, as evidence of their prior justification by faith. Schreiner and other critics argue this language is too close to a "basis of works" and moves outside the mainstream of the Reformation understanding, which holds that justification is solely on the basis of Christ's work alone, confirmed by faith at the final judgment.
• The Problem in Paul's Day: Wright suggests that Paul's main concern was the exclusion of Gentiles from the covenant community by Jewish "works of the law" (e.g., circumcision, food laws). Schreiner maintains that Paul was primarily confronting a deep-seated legalism and all human effort to achieve acceptance with God, making the debate applicable to individual salvation in any era.
• View of the Reformers: Wright often suggests that the Reformers, particularly Luther, were asking the wrong questions of the text of Paul. Schreiner pushes back, arguing that while exegetical refinements are possible, the Reformers' core insights about justification by faith alone remain true to the biblical text.

The debate between Wright and Schreiner has largely taken place through books (Schreiner's The Future of Justification: A Response to N.T. Wright and Wright's Justification: God's Plan and Paul's Vision), articles, and a notable face-to-face discussion at the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS) in 2010. Wright has used these platforms to clarify his position, sometimes adjusting his terminology (e.g., clarifying "in accordance with" versus "on the basis of" works) but largely maintaining his core views.

What if they are both wrong?

 

[Josheb]

I have rad all of them, and notice that you seem to be misunderstanding them in some areas of disagreement....

Prove it.

Pick one statement I've posted about Dispensational Premillennialism's teaching and prove I've misunderstood.

 

[Josheb]

Lets take your listed points one at a time here my Brother

• What is the orthodox doctrine on Jesus? What is orthodox Christian Christology? Put it in as few words as you can but answer the question asked, please.

Entire books on Christian Christology have been written so you're not going to get a lengthy exposition on the subject here. What I can and will provide is an answer that is specifically relevant to the teaching of Dispensational Premillennialism.

Orthodox Christian Christology asserts Jesus is now King, not that he will one day in the far distant future become king only when he returns to earth. The scriptures upon which that position is based include (but are not limited to) Ps. 110:1; Mt. 28:18; Mk. 16:19; Lk. 22:69; Jn. 18:37; Php. 2:9; Eph. 1:20-21; Col. 1:16; Heb. 2:8; 1 Pet. 3:22; and Rev. 19:16. This is also a logical necessity given Christ's inherent divinity (he cannot, logically, be God and also not King). A Reformed articulation of this position is found in the WCF Chapter 8, Article 1. Simply put, the historical, orthodox position taught in Christianity is that Jesus has always been king, but the messianic kingdom was inaugurated at his first coming, when Jesus lived, died, resurrected, ascended, was seated at God's right hand.

Do you agree? Is Jesus now already and everywhere King over all creation?

 

[Josheb]

I will take one point at a time. I've just answered your inquiry about orthodox Christology. I'm broaching the next inquiry now because I have already answered it and take your asking the question as evdience my posts weren't actually read..

Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity, the One who was and is God incarnated into human flesh, the One with 2 natures, and right now is the eternal God man

• What is the orthodox teaching on salvation? Are works believed to save in orthodox Christian doctrine?

See Post #153 and please do not ask me questions I have already answered. Salvation is by grace through faith for works, and NEVER by works. This is what scripture explicitly states, and it has been the orthodox position of Christianity since the founding of the Church. It is also a logical necessity because it is logically impossible for anything finite to reach anything infinite.

Do you agree?

 

[EarlyActs]

Also very important in this dialoge would be
The Future of Justification by John Piper

OK, I did read that out. The things that are wrong are truly wrong. Piper's line about 'what justification is for' may, however, be missing its practical purpose. Or the practical purpose is not getting through from an individual living guilt/fear/shame-free, to the social form of that--which is what Gal 3 deals with, as one package.

It may be that Wright has latched strongly on to the fact that a passage like Gal 3 is solving a problem (Jewish Christians/Judaizers down-grading gentiles divisively), but not realized the problem is downstream from a solid doctrine of justification.

I would also step back from calling justification 'how we become Christians.' It puts too much emphasis on us and our moment. For ex., liberty was instituted in America when the Constitution was completed; that was 1789, and we live in 2025. I wouldn't say I gained liberty this year when I made this discovery about the US Constitution. I became aware of it; I now know. The same with justification. That also relates to 'what time is it in heaven?' (as in what earth time is it?). Rom 3 has God now being just and justifier, but ch 4 shows David and others finding the same blessedness, in earth time before all that.

A Moody Bible instructor once told me, 'It actually takes a long time for a person to realize what justification is; and to rightly distinguish it from personal transformation.' This does not need to be the case; it is because too much evangelical emphasis is on moral renewal; the 'big' testimonies at churches are the ex-addict, the ex-adulterer, etc. No one seems to realize the highly moral pagan who gains a true knowledge of justification is just as much a story. Sin as debt vs sin as current selfish practice.

Part of this has to do with people getting off to the wrong start about being born again. The few references to this show that it starts with a person steeped in Judaism, probably very moral, but totally mistaken about their natural lineage and its value. There is none (Jn 1). The term 'anothen' (usually 'again') is much more strategic; it means 'from the top or start,' 'from above.' Jesus was taking a Jewish leader back before his Judaism and saying that a new type of 'ancestry' was about to start, to be born of God by knowing that the Son had delivered us from condemnation (3:17). We should really only use the 'new birth' about that; cp I Peter 2 when it is used, about the corruption of the forefathers.

But modern marketing has turned this into dramatic moral change, and then a few years later, people are puzzled when there is undertow from their old nature. Then debates start about 'were you really born again?' or 'if you were justified, you wouldn't do that' etc.

 

[JesusFan]

Lets take your listed points one at a time here my Brother

• What is the orthodox doctrine on Jesus? What is orthodox Christian Christology? Put it in as few words as you can but answer the question asked, please.

Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity, the One who was and is God incarnated into human flesh, the One with 2 natures, and right now is the eternal God man

• What is the orthodox teaching on salvation? Are works believed to save in orthodox Christian doctrine?
• Both Covenant and Dispy theology would agree that we are saved by Grace alone received thru Faith alone due to the Psa atonement of the Lord Jesus done on behalf of His saved persons , and both agree that good works would be the fruit and evidence of salvation, but not opart of the cause
• 
  
• What is the orthodox teaching in ecclesiology? Does God have two peoples in orthodox Christian doctrine?
• Both would ffirm the only saved now would be in the Church, saved jews and Gentiles who received jesus as savior and Lord
• What are the common views held by all the accepted Christian eschatologies? Do any of them beside Dispensational Premillennialism separate the rapture from the second coming? Do any of them think modern Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology (beside DPism)?
• Dispy has the pretrib rature, but there are those holding to also mid and post trib rapture views
• Which Christian theology (beside DPism) produces and promotes false prognosticators?
• Interesting discussion

Schreiner view is the orthodox view, from the perspective of a Reformed Baptist

 

[JesusFan]

Entire books on Christian Christology have been written so you're not going to get a lengthy exposition on the subject here. What I can and will provide is an answer that is specifically relevant to the teaching of Dispensational Premillennialism.

Orthodox Christian Christology asserts Jesus is now King, not that he will one day in the far distant future become king only when he returns to earth. The scriptures upon which that position is based include (but are not limited to) Ps. 110:1; Mt. 28:18; Mk. 16:19; Lk. 22:69; Jn. 18:37; Php. 2:9; Eph. 1:20-21; Col. 1:16; Heb. 2:8; 1 Pet. 3:22; and Rev. 19:16. This is also a logical necessity given Christ's inherent divinity (he cannot, logically, be God and also not King). A Reformed articulation of this position is found in the WCF Chapter 8, Article 1. Simply put, the historical, orthodox position taught in Christianity is that Jesus has always been king, but the messianic kingdom was inaugurated at his first coming, when Jesus lived, died, resurrected, ascended, was seated at God's right hand.

Do you agree? Is Jesus now already and everywhere King over all creation?

No, right now He is exercising His role as the Great High priest, and will be as the King over the entire earth during His Kingdom ruling Age after His Second Coming even, remember I hold to premil eschatology, not A mil

 

[JesusFan]

I will take one point at a time. I've just answered your inquiry about orthodox Christology. I'm broaching the next inquiry now because I have already answered it and take your asking the question as evdience my posts weren't actually read..

See Post #153 and please do not ask me questions I have already answered. Salvation is by grace through faith for works, and NEVER by works. This is what scripture explicitly states, and it has been the orthodox position of Christianity since the founding of the Church. It is also a logical necessity because it is logically impossible for anything finite to reach anything infinite.

Do you agree?

Yes, as would Ryrie, MacArthur and others holding to heir theology

 

[JesusFan]

OK, I did read that out. The things that are wrong are truly wrong. Piper's line about 'what justification is for' may, however, be missing its practical purpose. Or the practical purpose is not getting through from an individual living guilt/fear/shame-free, to the social form of that--which is what Gal 3 deals with, as one package.

It may be that Wright has latched strongly on to the fact that a passage like Gal 3 is solving a problem (Jewish Christians/Judaizers down-grading gentiles divisively), but not realized the problem is downstream from a solid doctrine of justification.

I would also step back from calling justification 'how we become Christians.' It puts too much emphasis on us and our moment. For ex., liberty was instituted in America when the Constitution was completed; that was 1789, and we live in 2025. I wouldn't say I gained liberty this year when I made this discovery about the US Constitution. I became aware of it; I now know. The same with justification. That also relates to 'what time is it in heaven?' (as in what earth time is it?). Rom 3 has God now being just and justifier, but ch 4 shows David and others finding the same blessedness, in earth time before all that.

A Moody Bible instructor once told me, 'It actually takes a long time for a person to realize what justification is; and to rightly distinguish it from personal transformation.' This does not need to be the case; it is because too much evangelical emphasis is on moral renewal; the 'big' testimonies at churches are the ex-addict, the ex-adulterer, etc. No one seems to realize the highly moral pagan who gains a true knowledge of justification is just as much a story. Sin as debt vs sin as current selfish practice.

Part of this has to do with people getting off to the wrong start about being born again. The few references to this show that it starts with a person steeped in Judaism, probably very moral, but totally mistaken about their natural lineage and its value. There is none (Jn 1). The term 'anothen' (usually 'again') is much more strategic; it means 'from the top or start,' 'from above.' Jesus was taking a Jewish leader back before his Judaism and saying that a new type of 'ancestry' was about to start, to be born of God by knowing that the Son had delivered us from condemnation (3:17). We should really only use the 'new birth' about that; cp I Peter 2 when it is used, about the corruption of the forefathers.

But modern marketing has turned this into dramatic moral change, and then a few years later, people are puzzled when there is undertow from their old nature. Then debates start about 'were you really born again?' or 'if you were justified, you wouldn't do that' etc.

Wright problem is that he is seeking to establish that the Judaism of time of Jesus held to grace based, but was at that time fully into a works based salvation

 

[Josheb]

No, right now He is exercising His role as the Great High priest, and will be as the King over the entire earth during His Kingdom ruling Age after His Second Coming even, remember I hold to premil eschatology, not A mil

I just provided a pile of verses that state the exact opposite. All the verses provided in Post 246 prove that incorrect. Were any of them read?

Yes, as would Ryrie, MacArthur and others holding to heir theology

I did not ask if Dispensationalist agree with Dispensationalists. I asked if you agree. Do you agree salvation can be by works? Do you agree salvation can and will be by works during the millennium? Forget about Ryrie, JMac, and all the other DPists. I am asking you to tell me about your belief so that I can understand the context of this exchange.

1. Is salvation from sin by works possible?
2. Is salvation from sin by works sound doctrine?
3. Will that change so that salvation from sin will be by works during the millennium?

Succinct answers, please.

 

[CrowCross]

No, right now He is exercising His role as the Great High priest, and will be as the King over the entire earth during His Kingdom ruling Age after His Second Coming even, remember I hold to premil eschatology, not A mil

People seem to forget....during Jesus' temptation in the desert Satan made Jesus an offer....

Satan took Jesus to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor, offering them to Jesus if He would bow down and worship him.

Satan has to be "King over the entire earth"....if he can make Jesus that offer.

 

[Josheb]

People seem to forget....during Jesus' temptation in the desert Satan made Jesus an offer....

Satan took Jesus to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor, offering them to Jesus if He would bow down and worship him.

Satan has to be "King over the entire earth"....if he can make Jesus that offer.

And Jesus did not feel any enticement of his flesh because he was already King and he understood the lie of the one who'd been lying from the beginning. People seem to forget that, too.

Satan made offers, but Jesus never felt a single desire or lust that would have dragged him away into sin. He has no such lusts. He was baited, tested in three different ways the lying adversary imagined would play to Jesus' desires but they did not. People seem to forget that, too. All three temptations came out of the Old Testament. None of them were the first time such bait had been attempted and on all three occasions Jesus answered with Old Testament scripture. Moses had survived without food for forty days on Sinai. Multiple people (like Gideon or David) tried to tempt God, or were themselves tempted in an attempt to force God's hand. The desire to rule all is nearly as old as humanity. People seem to forget all that, too.

So, no, Satan does not have to be king over the earth to be able to make Jesus that offer. All he has to be is a liar. The whole facts regarding to Satan is that he is a sinner and, as a sinner, he is enslaved by sin and completely dead in sin. He is, therefore, not even king over himself. When Peter described him as roaming the earth looking for those he might devour that was a veiled reference to his uncleanness. He was being called a carrion-eater. A king who is king over all the earth does not flee when resisted. Those who walk in faith (like Jesus) extinguish all Satans fiery arrows. A sinful creature whose every arrow is extinguished is not a king over anything. When scripture speaks of Satan as the ruler of the power of the air that is a euphemism for him having power over nothing. It's like when Paul wrote about boxing the air. There's nothing there. It is bad demonology to give Satan more power than he has. Satan is a created creature who was stripped of all his glory, a creature who has no power except that which God gives him and, even then, that power serves God's purposes, not Satan's. People seem to forget that, too.

 

[CrowCross]

And Jesus did not feel any enticement of his flesh because he was already King and he understood the lie of the one who'd been lying from the beginning. People seem to forget that, too.

Satan made offers, but Jesus never felt a single desire or lust that would have dragged him away into sin. He has no such lusts. He was baited, tested in three different ways the lying adversary imagined would play to Jesus' desires but they did not. People seem to forget that, too. All three temptations came out of the Old Testament. None of them were the first time such bait had been attempted and on all three occasions Jesus answered with Old Testament scripture. Moses had survived without food for forty days on Sinai. Multiple people (like Gideon or David) tried to tempt God, or were themselves tempted in an attempt to force God's hand. The desire to rule all is nearly as old as humanity. People seem to forget all that, too.

So, no, Satan does not have to be king over the earth to be able to make Jesus that offer. All he has to be is a liar. The whole facts regarding to Satan is that he is a sinner and, as a sinner, he is enslaved by sin and completely dead in sin. He is, therefore, not even king over himself. When Peter described him as roaming the earth looking for those he might devour that was a veiled reference to his uncleanness. He was being called a carrion-eater. A king who is king over all the earth does not flee when resisted. Those who walk in faith (like Jesus) extinguish all Satans fiery arrows. A sinful creature whose every arrow is extinguished is not a king over anything. When scripture speaks of Satan as the ruler of the power of the air that is a euphemism for him having power over nothing. It's like when Paul wrote about boxing the air. There's nothing there. It is bad demonology to give Satan more power than he has. Satan is a created creature who was stripped of all his glory, a creature who has no power except that which God gives him and, even then, that power serves God's purposes, not Satan's. People seem to forget that, too.

WOW!...where to begin.

2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

John 12:32..... 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out

Yes, Jesus could not be influenced by Satan as he can't influence God.

Christians who post as if Satan has no influence over you are being deceptive. They post as if Satan has been removed. This is a false theology as Satan roams around like a roaring lion....Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8.

Yes we have been given the "full armor"....as christians we are suppose to put it on. As christians we battle against rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
There is a supernatural aspect to our world that you seem to want to make people believe doesn't exist.

 

[Josheb]

WOW!...where to begin.

2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers...

There is no other god but God, and you are not an unbeliever. You have no need to be concerned with what Satan does to the already sinfully dead and enslaved. Furthermore, the New Testament age is over. On top of that, if the "god of this age" were Satan then the only power he would have is what God gives him. The larger truth, however, is that Satan is not the god of that age. Pride is the god of the age. Hubris. Self. Satan is just as much a victim of disobedience and sin as anyone else who disobeys God and NOTHING in scripture written about Satan should ever be read to contradict Romans 6:23.

, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

They can if and when God reveals it to them. God is almighty, not Satan. The whole Bible, not just the selected parts misread about Satan, teaches the sinful flesh is a much, much greater enemy than Satan. God si the Creator. Satan is a created creature. As I said before, he is dead and enslaved to his own sin. He is not, therefore "king" or "ruler" even over himself.

Scripture is misinterpreted when selected verses are read contrary to the whole of scripture. That's what your post do. There is only one God and that God is almighty and sovereign over EVERYTHING. He is mightier than Satan on Satan's strongest sin-filled lying day. He is sovereign over EVERYTHING, including sin. He is sovereign over every creature He has ever created, including Satan. Satan is not literally a god. He is a sin-enslaved minion whose only purpose is to serve his Creator. God blinds the minds of unbelievers in many ways. Sometimes he uses the hardness of their own hearts. Sometimes He uses Satan. Sometimes He just strikes them deaf, dumb, and blind without any device.

You have the mind of Christ AND the promise of God to work ALL things for good according to His purpose. The word "all" means all. It does not mean "all things but the machinations of Satan." That's not what scripture teaches. If God sees fit to let Satan loose in your life then you can and should stand firm the promises and the might of the almighty, and trust that whatever the purpose for God sending Satan your way it will be for good and not evil because you are called by God and loved by Him. There's not a single verse about Satan that should ever be read contrary to whole scripture.

John 12:32..... 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out

Re-read that. The word "now," means the prince of the world was cast out in the first century way back when Jesus spoke those words. Jesus did NOT say, "In the future the god of this world will be cast out." He said "now." The prince of the world has already been cast out. He was cast out millennia ago. He is a created creature who's been stripped of his glory. The only power he has is that which his Creator gives him, and that power serves only the Creator's purposes, never the sinfully dead and enslaved creature who is a murderous liar.

Yes, Jesus could not be influenced by Satan as he can't influence God.

Then Satan has no power over Jesus and bringing up the wilderness temptation was a waste of time.

Christians who post as if Satan has no influence over you are being deceptive.

Irrelevant.

I have not said Satan has no influence. The facts in evidence are that scripture has been used selectively and not one single selection has been rendered with the entirety of scripture. Verse X gets posted, but verse Y proves the empowering interpretation of verse X is incorrect. I post a pile of scripture proving Satan powerless and only one example was affirmed. The rest are ignored or treated with another selected verse treated as if it defines everything a Christian should know about Satan. Both the verse about the "god of the air," and the verse about "the prince of this world," should be understood in the context of Satan being a sinner and, therefore subject to all the effects of sin. Every single verse you might ever use about Satan having ANY kind of power, rule, dominion, etc. MUST be read in the context of the fact it is God and God alone who appoints rulers. The only rulers that have ever existed ruled solely as a consequence of divine providence and solely for God's purpose. Satan does not have his own kingdom.

I, on the other hand, do not deny Satan having power. I simply subordinate it to God. If Jesus is God, then there is not and never has been a single particle of an atom anywhere in creation where Jesus is not King. He cannot be God and not King. It's not only unscriptural to to believe otherwise; it is irrational.

They post as if....

We're not discussing what others do. We're discussing the proper knowledge and understanding of Satan.

This is a false theology as Satan roams around like a roaring lion....Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8.

Prove it. Provide one example in scripture where scripture actually states Satan devoured a person. Notice the verse states he roams. It never says he succeeds. It never says he is satiated in any way for even a minute . What the Text does state is a warning to believers to be "sober" and resist him. What happens when the adversary is resisted? He flees. It is not appropriate to read 1 Peter 5:8 in any manner that contradicts James 4:7.To do so is to misuse scripture.

Yes we have been given the "full armor"....as christians we are suppose to put it on.

And when that happens ALL Satan's machinations are extinguished. Satan is powerless. He has no power over the armor of God. He is not the king of anything if he flees when resisted and can be defeated with faith. He was cast out long before you or I ever read Ephesians 6 and believed it.

As christians we battle against rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

We battle against them victoriously. It's not an undecided battle. There are no powers, but those God appoints. Those powers serve only God's purposes. Every battle fought with Satan wearing God's armor and resisting Satan is one in which Satan's efforts are defeated and he runs away. Every verse about Satan that can be quoted occurs within the context of whole scripture which explicitly states Satan is a created creature who is a defeated slave of sin.

He is like you and I were before we were brought to salvation and filled with God Spirit.... except you and I are made in God's image and he is not! He's not happy about that and there is NOTHING he can do about it.

There is a supernatural aspect to our world that you seem to want to make people believe doesn't exist.

Never happened. That's just an attempted ad hominem posted under the auspices of "seems" because the facts of whole scripture aren't being addressed cohesively.

Christians who post as if Satan has no influence over you are being deceptive.

So too are Christians who give Satan more power than he actually has.

• Satan is a created creature who has no power over his Creator.
• Satan is a sinner and has no power over sin.
• Satan does not actually have the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. He was lying.
• Satan does not have the power to hurt any Christian in any way unless God endows him with that ability and on all such occasions that power works solely for good according to God purposes.
• Devouring the dead, blinding the already blinded, is not power.
• Ruling the air is nothing.
• He was cast out long ago.

1 Corinthians 5:5
I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.


Are the implications of that verse correctly understood? A congregant in the Corinthian Church was to be handed over to Satan so that his spirit might be saved!!! In other words, being handed over to Satan might prove salvific! Do you think Satan likes that? Do you think Satan, whose destiny is already decided, who has absolutely no prospect for being saved from his sin, do you think he likes the possibility he might be used as a device for the salvation of a sinner's spirit?

Do you think he has any power to stop God from using him as an agent for saving a sinner's spirit when he cannot save his own?


Stop giving Satan more power than whole scripture gives him. Acknowledge the correct amount of power the cast out sinful creature has, from whom it was given, and whose purposes that power serves.


And since we were discussing Dispensational Premillennialism when the digression about Satan and demonology started, you might give some consideration to how much of your understanding of Satan came from Dispensationalism and not whole scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

And Jesus did not feel any enticement of his flesh because he was already King and he understood the lie of the one who'd been lying from the beginning. People seem to forget that, too.

Satan made offers, but Jesus never felt a single desire or lust that would have dragged him away into sin. He has no such lusts. He was baited, tested in three different ways the lying adversary imagined would play to Jesus' desires but they did not. People seem to forget that, too. All three temptations came out of the Old Testament. None of them were the first time such bait had been attempted and on all three occasions Jesus answered with Old Testament scripture. Moses had survived without food for forty days on Sinai. Multiple people (like Gideon or David) tried to tempt God, or were themselves tempted in an attempt to force God's hand. The desire to rule all is nearly as old as humanity. People seem to forget all that, too.

So, no, Satan does not have to be king over the earth to be able to make Jesus that offer. All he has to be is a liar. The whole facts regarding to Satan is that he is a sinner and, as a sinner, he is enslaved by sin and completely dead in sin. He is, therefore, not even king over himself. When Peter described him as roaming the earth looking for those he might devour that was a veiled reference to his uncleanness. He was being called a carrion-eater. A king who is king over all the earth does not flee when resisted. Those who walk in faith (like Jesus) extinguish all Satans fiery arrows. A sinful creature whose every arrow is extinguished is not a king over anything. When scripture speaks of Satan as the ruler of the power of the air that is a euphemism for him having power over nothing. It's like when Paul wrote about boxing the air. There's nothing there. It is bad demonology to give Satan more power than he has. Satan is a created creature who was stripped of all his glory, a creature who has no power except that which God gives him and, even then, that power serves God's purposes, not Satan's. People seem to forget that, too.

Jesus is NOT right now enthroned as King, as he is in His position as the great High Priest for His people in heaven, for when he sets up His kingdom reigning on this Earth, satan will then be bound, will be no other religions and isms, Earth will be restored to a paradise form, and no more sickness and diseases famines etc

 

[JesusFan]

There is no other god but God, and you are not an unbeliever. You have no need to be concerned with what Satan does to the already sinfully dead and enslaved. Furthermore, the New Testament age is over. On top of that, if the "god of this age" were Satan then the only power he would have is what God gives him. The larger truth, however, is that Satan is not the god of that age. Pride is the god of the age. Hubris. Self. Satan is just as much a victim of disobedience and sin as anyone else who disobeys God and NOTHING in scripture written about Satan should ever be read to contradict Romans 6:23.

They can if and when God reveals it to them. God is almighty, not Satan. The whole Bible, not just the selected parts misread about Satan, teaches the sinful flesh is a much, much greater enemy than Satan. God si the Creator. Satan is a created creature. As I said before, he is dead and enslaved to his own sin. He is not, therefore "king" or "ruler" even over himself.

Scripture is misinterpreted when selected verses are read contrary to the whole of scripture. That's what your post do. There is only one God and that God is almighty and sovereign over EVERYTHING. He is mightier than Satan on Satan's strongest sin-filled lying day. He is sovereign over EVERYTHING, including sin. He is sovereign over every creature He has ever created, including Satan. Satan is not literally a god. He is a sin-enslaved minion whose only purpose is to serve his Creator. God blinds the minds of unbelievers in many ways. Sometimes he uses the hardness of their own hearts. Sometimes He uses Satan. Sometimes He just strikes them deaf, dumb, and blind without any device.

You have the mind of Christ AND the promise of God to work ALL things for good according to His purpose. The word "all" means all. It does not mean "all things but the machinations of Satan." That's not what scripture teaches. If God sees fit to let Satan loose in your life then you can and should stand firm the promises and the might of the almighty, and trust that whatever the purpose for God sending Satan your way it will be for good and not evil because you are called by God and loved by Him. There's not a single verse about Satan that should ever be read contrary to whole scripture.

Re-read that. The word "now," means the prince of the world was cast out in the first century way back when Jesus spoke those words. Jesus did NOT say, "In the future the god of this world will be cast out." He said "now." The prince of the world has already been cast out. He was cast out millennia ago. He is a created creature who's been stripped of his glory. The only power he has is that which his Creator gives him, and that power serves only the Creator's purposes, never the sinfully dead and enslaved creature who is a murderous liar.

Then Satan has no power over Jesus and bringing up the wilderness temptation was a waste of time.

Irrelevant.

I have not said Satan has no influence. The facts in evidence are that scripture has been used selectively and not one single selection has been rendered with the entirety of scripture. Verse X gets posted, but verse Y proves the empowering interpretation of verse X is incorrect. I post a pile of scripture proving Satan powerless and only one example was affirmed. The rest are ignored or treated with another selected verse treated as if it defines everything a Christian should know about Satan. Both the verse about the "god of the air," and the verse about "the prince of this world," should be understood in the context of Satan being a sinner and, therefore subject to all the effects of sin. Every single verse you might ever use about Satan having ANY kind of power, rule, dominion, etc. MUST be read in the context of the fact it is God and God alone who appoints rulers. The only rulers that have ever existed ruled solely as a consequence of divine providence and solely for God's purpose. Satan does not have his own kingdom.

I, on the other hand, do not deny Satan having power. I simply subordinate it to God. If Jesus is God, then there is not and never has been a single particle of an atom anywhere in creation where Jesus is not King. He cannot be God and not King. It's not only unscriptural to to believe otherwise; it is irrational.

We're not discussing what others do. We're discussing the proper knowledge and understanding of Satan.

Prove it. Provide one example in scripture where scripture actually states Satan devoured a person. Notice the verse states he roams. It never says he succeeds. It never says he is satiated in any way for even a minute . What the Text does state is a warning to believers to be "sober" and resist him. What happens when the adversary is resisted? He flees. It is not appropriate to read 1 Peter 5:8 in any manner that contradicts James 4:7.To do so is to misuse scripture.

And when that happens ALL Satan's machinations are extinguished. Satan is powerless. He has no power over the armor of God. He is not the king of anything if he flees when resisted and can be defeated with faith. He was cast out long before you or I ever read Ephesians 6 and believed it.

We battle against them victoriously. It's not an undecided battle. There are no powers, but those God appoints. Those powers serve only God's purposes. Every battle fought with Satan wearing God's armor and resisting Satan is one in which Satan's efforts are defeated and he runs away. Every verse about Satan that can be quoted occurs within the context of whole scripture which explicitly states Satan is a created creature who is a defeated slave of sin.

He is like you and I were before we were brought to salvation and filled with God Spirit.... except you and I are made in God's image and he is not! He's not happy about that and there is NOTHING he can do about it.

Never happened. That's just an attempted ad hominem posted under the auspices of "seems" because the facts of whole scripture aren't being addressed cohesively.

So too are Christians who give Satan more power than he actually has.

• Satan is a created creature who has no power over his Creator.
• Satan is a sinner and has no power over sin.
• Satan does not actually have the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. He was lying.
• Satan does not have the power to hurt any Christian in any way unless God endows him with that ability and on all such occasions that power works solely for good according to God purposes.
• Devouring the dead, blinding the already blinded, is not power.
• Ruling the air is nothing.
• He was cast out long ago.

1 Corinthians 5:5
I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.


Are the implications of that verse correctly understood? A congregant in the Corinthian Church was to be handed over to Satan so that his spirit might be saved!!! In other words, being handed over to Satan might prove salvific! Do you think Satan likes that? Do you think Satan, whose destiny is already decided, who has absolutely no prospect for being saved from his sin, do you think he likes the possibility he might be used as a device for the salvation of a sinner's spirit?

Do you think he has any power to stop God from using him as an agent for saving a sinner's spirit when he cannot save his own?


Stop giving Satan more power than whole scripture gives him. Acknowledge the correct amount of power the cast out sinful creature has, from whom it was given, and whose purposes that power serves.


And since we were discussing Dispensational Premillennialism when the digression about Satan and demonology started, you might give some consideration to how much of your understanding of Satan came from Dispensationalism and not whole scripture.

Satan power over us has been broken by the Cross and the Resurrection of Lord Jesus, but the world system is still running under His ways, and to the lost he is still "god" as they basically are living in ways he wants them to be doing

 

[JesusFan]

I just provided a pile of verses that state the exact opposite. All the verses provided in Post 246 prove that incorrect. Were any of them read?

I did not ask if Dispensationalist agree with Dispensationalists. I asked if you agree. Do you agree salvation can be by works? Do you agree salvation can and will be by works during the millennium? Forget about Ryrie, JMac, and all the other DPists. I am asking you to tell me about your belief so that I can understand the context of this exchange.

1. Is salvation from sin by works possible?
2. Is salvation from sin by works sound doctrine?
3. Will that change so that salvation from sin will be by works during the millennium?

Succinct answers, please.

We stand that salvation is by Grace alone received thru faith alone, and that many who see the temple in bible after second coming event see it as a memorial to the Lord Jesus, as like fashion communion memorializes for us today what he did for our behalf