What Happened to the Church?

[Arial]

You led your discussion with the 5 Solas and asked what went wrong. Personally, I believe that some of the Solas should have been better aligned with what the Bible and History actually does tell us.

They don't actually have anything to do with history. And they only relate to what is in the Bible in that they are the goal for which our doctrines aim and the boundaries within which it stays.

Sola Scriptura: The Church was established, to guide Christians, several decades before the first Epistle was ever penned, let alone distributed to all the churches. This is a fact that does not belittle the salvific power of the Bible. Nevertheless, the Apostles bequeathed to us both the Bible and the Church. Where is that Church, the visible Body of Christ, today?

Sola scriptura was the Reformation counter to the Roman church setting itself up as a higher authority than the Bible and as the only correct interpreters of it. Sola scriptura says the scriptures are our only authority---not the church.

Solus Christus: We are Trinitarians, aren't we? Without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit we would not be saved (Titus 3:5-6)

Solus Christus means Christ alone saves, not Christ plus anything.

Sola Fide: The only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible actually destroys Sola Fide (James 2:24). All attempts to rationalize that verse away always fail against the clear message of James 2.

Then it contradicts other parts of the Bible. Acts 16:31;1 Cor 1:21; Eph 2:8; Luke 7:50; Romans 9:32. Don't make or refute a doctrine with one verse, from one book, devoid of its context and separated from from everything else the Bible teaches. Read James for what it is, more similar

to wisdom literature than any other NT book, and read the whole book at once---it is a letter after all---and see what you come up with.

Sola Gratia: Our very breath is by the Grace of God.

This is true but sola gratia refers to everything concerning our salvation and the fact that any are saved is purely by the grace of God. It cannot be earned or merited.

Soli Deo Gloria: God does share His Glory with Believers (John 17:22).

Soli Deo Gloria means all we do is for His glory, not our own.

 

[atpollard]

Soli Deo Gloria means all we do is for His glory, not our own.

Yup. Even John 17:22 is all about bringing Glory to God …

John 17:1-5, 20-24 [NASB20]​

1 Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 "I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 "And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed. ...​

​

20 "I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”​

 

[Synergy]

Are you claiming Justification by Faith and our Works?
(I just want to be clear about what YOU believe … I know what point James was making.)

Justification by Faith and God-preordained good works. The good works that Paul and James both point to.

What works do you believe James talks about?

 

[Synergy]

They don't actually have anything to do with history. And they only relate to what is in the Bible in that they are the goal for which our doctrines aim and the boundaries within which it stays.

Sola scriptura was the Reformation counter to the Roman church setting itself up as a higher authority than the Bible and as the only correct interpreters of it.

I'm not Catholic so I couldn't care less about what Catholics did or didn't do. I place my trust on what the Apostles bequeathed to us which was the Church and Bible. Where is that Church?

Sola scriptura says the scriptures are our only authority---not the church.

That's not what the Bible says. 2 Th 2:15 says that it's both written (Bible) and verbally transmitted teachings/traditions that we must adhere to and transmit. Where is that verbal tradition?

Solus Christus means Christ alone saves, not Christ plus anything.

I'll stick with the Bible that includes the Holy Spirit in our salvation (Titus 3:5). You are Trinitarian, right?

Then it contradicts other parts of the Bible. Acts 16:31;1 Cor 1:21; Eph 2:8; Luke 7:50; Romans 9:32. Don't make or refute a doctrine with one verse, from one book, devoid of its context and separated from from everything else the Bible teaches. Read James for what it is, more similar to wisdom literature than any other NT book, and read the whole book at once---it is a letter after all---and see what you come up with.

There is no contradiction because none of those verses you cited has a phrase like "faith alone" or "faith only" or anything else that would show that they're addressing Sola Fide. You can't just arbitrarily assume the words "only" or "alone" into the text. Again, the only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible does eliminate Sola Fide entirely (James 2:24).

Some of your verses mention belief but how can one believe without doing something like repenting? James goes so far as to say faith without works is dead.

Rom 9:32 mentions works of the law. Christians don't practice works of the law so that verse is irrelevant to our present situation.

This is true but sola gratia refers to everything concerning our salvation and the fact that any are saved is purely by the grace of God. It cannot be earned or merited.

I agree.

Soli Deo Gloria means all we do is for His glory, not our own.

But we can receive and embody His Glory but in a humble thankful way.

 

[atpollard]

Justification by Faith and God-preordained good works. The good works that Paul and James both point to.

What works do you believe James talks about?

I agree they are “God appointed good works” (per Ephesians 2:10), but I place them as part of SANCTIFICATION (becoming more like Christ … a work of the Holy Spirit that ends when we shed this mortal flesh and return home to Heaven), not JUSTIFICATION (the transformation from “dead” to “alive” per Ephesians 2:4-5 or the “saved” of Ephesians 2:8-9, which is a singular event.)

As for James, his most basic point is that a life with no evidence of Ephesians 2:10 should cause one to seriously question whether one has the ”gift” of Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[Arial]

I'm not Catholic so I couldn't care less about what Catholics did or didn't do. I place my trust on what the Apostles bequeathed to us which was the Church and Bible. Where is that Church?

I was just telling you what sola scriptura means since you didn't seem to know.

I'll stick with the Bible that includes the Holy Spirit in our salvation (Titus 3:5). You are Trinitarian, right?

Yes I am Trinitarian but you are missing the point of what Christ alone means. It is not saying that all three persons of the Trinity are not involved in a person's salvation. It is saying that the only way to God is in Christ. The solas are a product of the Reformation. They were cutting the head off of the Roman church that said the way to God was through the Roman church.

There is no contradiction because none of those verses you cited has a phrase like "faith alone" or "faith only" or anything else that would show that they're addressing Sola Fide. You can't just arbitrarily assume the words "only" or "alone" into the text. Again, the only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible does eliminate Sola Fide entirely (James 2:24).

The question is do they say "believe" and words with that meaning? Or do they say believe and do this or that? Do you believe our salvation comes through Christ plus our works or do you believe as Eph 2 does, that we are saved by grace through FAITH and that is a gift of God not of WORKS lest any man should BOAST.

Some of your verses mention belief but how can one believe without doing something like repenting? James goes so far as to say faith without works is dead.

The real question is why would someone repent unless they believed? Did you read the whole book of James all togethether, just as though it was a letter from him to you that arrived in the mail today? Do that and then we can talk about it. Pay attention to all of it, If you have a Bible that has chapter introductions, read that before you begin. If it is any good, it will put the book into a context.

Rom 9:32 mentions works of the law. Christians don't practice works of the law so that verse is irrelevant to our present situation.

That's a new one for me. God gave us things that are irrelevant to us?

But we can receive and embody His Glory but in a humble thankful way.

Nevertheless for the glory of God alone as a sola means what it means.

 

[Synergy]

I agree they are “God appointed good works” (per Ephesians 2:10), but I place them as part of SANCTIFICATION (becoming more like Christ … a work of the Holy Spirit that ends when we shed this mortal flesh and return home to Heaven), not JUSTIFICATION (the transformation from “dead” to “alive” per Ephesians 2:4-5 or the “saved” of Ephesians 2:8-9, which is a singular event.)

James placed good works as part of justification. That doesn't preclude them from slso being part of sanctification as Eph 2:10 implies. Nevertheless, between your claim that good works are not part of justification and James' clear verse that they are, I'll side with James. Sorry.

As for James, his most basic point is that a life with no evidence of Ephesians 2:10 should cause one to seriously question whether one has the ”gift” of Ephesians 2:8-9.

That's part of his message. The main message is that man is justified by God through works and not by faith alone. It is Sola Fide that is not part of justification according to James.

 

[atpollard]

That's part of his message. The main message is that man is justified by God through works and not by faith alone. It is Sola Fide that is not part of justification according to James.

I am sorry, but I must strenuously disagree that is James main point. It is at best a small part of James letter (and since that interpretation contradicts other scripture, you have clearly misunderstood it.)

• [Rom 3:24, 28 NASB20] 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, ... 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
• [Rom 4:2 NASB20] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.
• [Rom 5:1, 9 NASB20] 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ... 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.
• [Rom 8:30 NASB20] 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
• [1Co 6:11 NASB20] 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
• [Gal 2:16 NASB20] 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
• [Gal 3:11, 24 NASB20] 11 Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH." ... 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian [to lead us] to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
• [Gal 5:4 NASB20] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.
• [Tit 3:7 NASB20] 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to [the] hope of eternal life.

“Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses [all these above verses] surrounding us, let's rid ourselves of every obstacle and the sin which so easily entangles us [like good works to earn God’s grace], and let's run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking only at Jesus [Sola Christus], the originator and perfecter of the faith [Sola Fide], who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. [Soli Deo Gloria]” - [Hebrews 12:1-2]

 

[ReverendRV]

Justification by Faith and God-preordained good works. The good works that Paul and James both point to.

What works do you believe James talks about?

Saint James explicitly sites Abraham and Rahab as performing Works that Justify...

Faith disguised as Works ~ by ReverendRV * March 28

James 2:21+25 NIV; Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route?

Christians often refer to Hebrews 11 as ‘The Hall of Faith’; a sample of Believers who are famous because of what they believed. The chapter starts by teaching Faith is the substance of things Hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The purpose of Faith is to provide us Hope and to supply us with evidence. Faith does provide the Believer some evidence, because Faith is an extrapolation upon things that are clearly seen. The Sun rises and sets everyday; this is clearly seen. Tomorrow isn’t certain, the future isn’t clearly seen; but through Faith we have evidence the Sun will also rise tomorrow. Light travels from the Sun to Earth in about eight minutes. We are living by Faith the Sun is still lit, the light is not evidence that the Sun is still burning; Faith is our evidence. ~ Have you ever thought of how Faith may also be another kind of evidence?

Our Faith is also meant to be evidence to God; and to other people. God sent Abraham to offer his only son as a Sacrifice. As Abraham raised his knife, God made him stop and said that now he knew Abraham feared him; he had past the test of Faith. When it comes to your Faith being evidence to men, the Apostle James said, “Show me your Faith without Deeds, and I will show you my Faith by my Deeds.” People take what James is trying to teach us and tell us that without Works, Faith is dead; they are right. ~ Have you ever Stolen before? What do you call people who Steal? Most everyone has Stolen something; be honest with yourself, you’ll remember. But even if you can’t remember, Jesus said that there is an ordained way to come to God; all who try to come other ways are Thieves and Robbers. Have you ever come to Christ by a way other than through Faith Alone? Then you’re Stealing Heaven, and the penalty is eternal imprisonment in Hell. ~ You say, “My Church said we are Justified by Works, and they used Abraham and Rahab as examples of this; you also said that without Works, faith is dead!” ~ The explanation is that Hebrews 11 tells us the two examples James used to show us we are saved by Works, are truly examples of Faith; IE their Works are in the Hall of Faith. Good Works are evidence of Faith…

God made a way for us to legally be Pardoned of all the charges made against us for our Sins; and it’s not because of any Good Deed we could ever do. The Apostle Paul said, “Now to the one who Works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not Work but trusts God who Justifies the ungodly, this Faith is counted as Righteousness. David says the same when he mentions the blessedness of the one to who God credits Righteousness apart from Works.” Stop stealing your way to Heaven by Working for it! The sanctioned way to Heaven is by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as our only Savior and our Lord. Trust in God's only Son Jesus and you will be Forgiven! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without even one Work we could do to earn our Salvation. Find a Bible believing Church and become Christ’s disciple. Repent of your Sins and Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God. ~ On Judgment Day, show God your Faith which is disguised as your Works, instead of showing him your Graceless Works which are disguised as your Merit…

John 6:29 Amp; Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

These Works are examples of Faith; they are Fruit that Saint James wants to see. God knows the Heart. Post Salvific Works are Faith in disguise of Works; Faith that looks like Fruit...

 

[ReverendRV]

Justification by Faith and God-preordained good works. The good works that Paul and James both point to.

What works do you believe James talks about?

The Works Saint James is talking about is to Love your Neighbor as you Love yourself; then you are doing pretty Good...

The Royal Law ~ by ReverendRV * November 8

James 2:8 KJV; If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

There was a time when Jesus commissioned several disciples and he was instructing them in the way of his ministry. During this time an Expert spoke up and asked Jesus how to inherit Eternal Life, this is what was said; “Behold, a Lawyer stood up to put Jesus to the test. ‘Teacher, what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?’ Jesus said, ‘What is written in the Law? How does it say?’ The Lawyer answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your Heart and with all your Soul and with all your Strength and with all your Mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’ Jesus said ‘You have answered correctly; do it, and you will live.’ The lawyer desired to justify himself, ‘Who is my neighbor?"’ ~ Saint James taught about Loving your Neighbor, about not showing partiality; which the Expert had in spades! ~ How could you ever keep this Royal Law with all your Heart?

Jesus answered the Lawyer’s question with an example of a foreigner who helped an injured man on a road. A Priest and a Levite wouldn’t stop to help the man. The Lawyer knew that if this ever occurred, Jesus would be right; because those two wouldn’t touch anything unclean. Have you ever helped someone when they were in dire straits? Most people can answer Yes to this; but none can say that they kept the Law of God by doing this! You object, “Saint Paul said Loving your Neighbor as yourself fulfills the Law!” Yes he did; but only a Royal Prince from Heaven can fulfill this Royal Law of God. A Pauper only has a Commoners Law that was given to Sinners; the Ten Commandments. These ten Laws were given to show us that we are guilty as Sin, and that we’re outlaws who will be locked away in a devil’s Hell for all Eternity. ~ The Baptist Theologian John Gill said this of the Royal Law; ‘Which is the Law of love to Man, without distinction of rich and poor, high and low, bond and free; and is so called, because it’s the Law of the King of kings, it is the Law of Christ, who is King of Saints; and because it is a principal Law, the chief of Laws; as Love to God is the sum of the first and great commandment in the Law, and may be called the King of Laws; so Love to the Neighbor is the second and next unto it, and may very well bear the name of the Queen of Laws, and has Royalty in it; and indeed this last is said to be the fulfilling of the Law, and it is also submitted to, and obeyed by such who are made kings and priests to God; and to be done in a Royal manner, with a Princely Spirit, Willingly, and with all readiness:’

What we need is to be made Kings and Priests of God in order to be able to fulfill the Queen of Laws and live! There’s only one way to receive this Coronation and it’s by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ the King of Kings; without Works lest we boast. His shed blood pays our Sin debt for us, but his Resurrection from the dead grants us our Royal title. Repent from Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and you will be Forgiven. Gain your commission from him and you’ll be Saved from your Sins; you will be spiritually Born Again with a Prince’s birthright! Jesus will grant it that you rule and reign with him in his Kingdom forever in Eternity. You’re now able to keep the Royal Law of God since you’re under the jurisdiction of Heaven as a citizen who can exercise your new found rights. ~ Give up your life as a dying Pauper and exchange it for the Life of an everlasting Prince; an Heir of the one true King. Read the Bible and find your Kingdom Agenda…

Revelations 1:6 KJV; To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

 

[ReverendRV]

James placed good works as part of justification. That doesn't preclude them from slso being part of sanctification as Eph 2:10 implies. Nevertheless, between your claim that good works are not part of justification and James' clear verse that they are, I'll side with James. Sorry.

That's part of his message. The main message is that man is justified by God through works and not by faith alone. It is Sola Fide that is not part of justification according to James.

Saint James placed Good Works as "A" Justification. You often say that Justification is only said in the Bible, to not be of Faith Alone; so he is talking about "A" Justification, not parts of one singular Justification. Saint James must be talking about a Category of Justification that's different from Justification through Faith, not two parts of one Justification. Justification through Faith Alone must have already been a known Doctrine, for Saint James to teach about it more thoroughly; I suggest Sola Fide was taught even back then. Saint James is not against Sola Fide but was against Antinomianism. He sent Saint Paul to the Gentiles, so they were in full agreement about Faith and Works. Though the examples of Abraham and Rahab are called Faith AND they're called Works, Categories have to exist. The Bible says "The one who does not Work but trusts God who Justifies the ungodly, this Faith is counted as Righteousness." This means there has to be two Categories of Justification in the Bible; not just one combined Justification. Saint Peter clears this up for us at the Council of Jerusalem; Jews and Gentiles are Justifed in the sight of God through Faith Alone...

 

[ReverendRV]

For @Arial

Not of Works ~ by ReverendRV * July 23

Galatians 3:11 KJV; But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The Just shall Live by Faith; eternal Life which never ends! But the Apostle James said we are not Justified by Faith alone; we are also Justified by Works. This doesn’t violate the Law of Non-Contradiction. James says that without Works Faith is Dead; the Works James speaks of are the post-salvific Works which we are Born again for. Our post Salvation Works, also known as ‘fruit’ Justify our Faith before God and Man. But of course God already knew that we would bear fruit; he prunes Saints for this purpose. So our Justification by post-salvific Works is an 'off-shoot' branch of the original 'vine' of our Justification…

As Evangelicals we believe that we are created (recreated; IE Born Again) to do good Works. The Bible doesn’t have an issue with a Christian who claims he is Justified by Grace through Faith apart from Works. If a Christian wants to honor his mother and father after he is Saved, then this is not Works of the Law which Justify us; it is the Work of Grace through Faith. A Christian may not want images of God in his home, or he may not want to eat Chinese food because there is a Buddha at the restaurant. ~ The Bible says the Ten Commandments were given by God to Man, so we would know we are Sinners; not so they can have life by keeping them. Have you ever told a Lie? What do we call a people who tell Lies? Have you looked with Lust upon another person? If you have done so, then you’ve committed Adultery in your heart. As Paul says in our verse, it’s self-evident that the Law of God only makes us guilty instead of making us innocent; this is bad news. If God judged by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will God send you to Heaven or Hell? Does this bother you??

But the good news is also in our verse; “the Justified shall live by Faith!” Trust in the risen Jesus as your Savior and your Sins will be forgiven; you will not have to do the time for your crime in Gods prison, which is an Eternal Hell. It is by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Jesus Christ that we are Saved; but not through our Works. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; start going to your local Church and read your Bible. ~ Our original Justification by God’s Grace through our Faith in Jesus, is our legal voucher which is signed by God; it is sufficient in and of itself. Our Justification in the sight of Man, are the Works we were Born Again to do after Salvation. A piece of fruit is Justified when it was picked in due season, but then it gets a little label added on to it after inspection. Like the Chiquita banana sticker; it receives the 'stamp of approval' as God’s Brand for our sakes, but it has already been approved when we first believe…

John 5:24 NIV; "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Arial]

For @Arial

Not of Works ~ by ReverendRV * July 23

Galatians 3:11 KJV; But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The Just shall Live by Faith; eternal Life which never ends! But the Apostle James said we are not Justified by Faith alone; we are also Justified by Works. This doesn’t violate the Law of Non-Contradiction. James says that without Works Faith is Dead; the Works James speaks of are the post-salvific Works which we are Born again for. Our post Salvation Works, also known as ‘fruit’ Justify our Faith before God and Man. But of course God already knew that we would bear fruit; he prunes Saints for this purpose. So our Justification by post-salvific Works is an 'off-shoot' branch of the original 'vine' of our Justification…

As Evangelicals we believe that we are created (recreated; IE Born Again) to do good Works. The Bible doesn’t have an issue with a Christian who claims he is Justified by Grace through Faith apart from Works. If a Christian wants to honor his mother and father after he is Saved, then this is not Works of the Law which Justify us; it is the Work of Grace through Faith. A Christian may not want images of God in his home, or he may not want to eat Chinese food because there is a Buddha at the restaurant. ~ The Bible says the Ten Commandments were given by God to Man, so we would know we are Sinners; not so they can have life by keeping them. Have you ever told a Lie? What do we call a people who tell Lies? Have you looked with Lust upon another person? If you have done so, then you’ve committed Adultery in your heart. As Paul says in our verse, it’s self-evident that the Law of God only makes us guilty instead of making us innocent; this is bad news. If God judged by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will God send you to Heaven or Hell? Does this bother you??

But the good news is also in our verse; “the Justified shall live by Faith!” Trust in the risen Jesus as your Savior and your Sins will be forgiven; you will not have to do the time for your crime in Gods prison, which is an Eternal Hell. It is by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Jesus Christ that we are Saved; but not through our Works. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; start going to your local Church and read your Bible. ~ Our original Justification by God’s Grace through our Faith in Jesus, is our legal voucher which is signed by God; it is sufficient in and of itself. Our Justification in the sight of Man, are the Works we were Born Again to do after Salvation. A piece of fruit is Justified when it was picked in due season, but then it gets a little label added on to it after inspection. Like the Chiquita banana sticker; it receives the 'stamp of approval' as God’s Brand for our sakes, but it has already been approved when we first believe…

John 5:24 NIV; "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I love the way that if we actually listen to one another instead of reading looking for an argument to start, we can learn. And it is not different truths that we learn, or that we don't know those truths being presented, (though sometimes either or both can and may be true) it is that we are given the opportunity to view that truth through another lens that we did not yet know of.