What Happened to the Church?

[Arial]

Sola scriptura (scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), soli Deo (for the glory of God alone.)

This of course was the battle cry of the Reformation as brave men often sacrificed their lives and freedom to pull away from the teaching and oppression of Rome, seeking to return to Christ's church the foundation of doctrine laid by the apostles. To exalt again the Chief Cornerstone, Christ Jesus as having dominion and headship over His church, and put the Bible back into the hands of the people. All for the glory of God.

Have we, in this age of modernism tossed aside as old fashioned and too restrictive, the powerful, God inspired work of these men?

Obviously we have. Scarcely any of the foundational wall still stands, and certainly our gates have been burned with the fire of modernism. And there are as many reasons as there are heresies and in many cases no Biblical doctrine at all. It cannot be denied however, that out of the Reformation came the doctrines of the radical fall of man, the predestination and election by God, that salvation is of God from beginning to end in the process of redemption, that it is His grace alone that applies the work of Christ and that it is always effective in that for which it is sent, that Jesus died for those His Father gave HIm, and that God preserves them in perseverance to the end.

Out of the Reformation came the confessions and catechisms and creeds that stated these things be they those of the Germain, Swiss, English or Scottish reformations. They agreed on these points and from them all other doctrine flowed. I believe that the first stone removed that led to the vulnerability of the whole wall that enclosed Christ's church doctrinally, was the removal of these confessions and catechisms. What followed, in various ways and by various people and schools of thought, including philosophy, was the almost complete take over in the church of the idea of man's free will being the thing that gave a person salvation or withheld it from him. He could choose to believe the gospel or he could reject it.

Once this was embraced, the wall began crumbling beneath the hands of darkness masquerading as light, feeding and validating every desire for autonomy, to be out from under the heavy hand of God. Sound doctrine went out the window. Theology became whatever a person chose to believe.

This could be very discouraging, and it is, but still light shines in the darkness. God is not losing. He is not even surprised. It is what the evil one does since Christ has already defeated the power of sin and death in His children. God still laughs at all those who rage against Him, His King is still on Zion, still calling the lambs, still gathering them in. It is in the comfort and security of God's faithfulness found only in the doctrines of the hated TULIP that we have any peace in the midst of this. He will lose none! No matter how loud the voice of deceit cries out, He knows who are His and He faithfully, one by one, gathers them to Christ.

Even in the midst of altar calls that promise good things, possessions, my will be done, and nothing of Christ but maybe that one small quote "I am the way, the truth, and the life," someone hears that still small voice calling and follows the Shepherd, even in this arid environment, for the Father has given new birth to a babe, placing them in the Savior.
All the same we are called to pray for His church, perhaps with the urgency and longing of Nehemiah, "Father have mercy on your people, for our walls are torn down and our gates are burned with fire." All for the glory of God---not us.

 

[ReverendRV]

What has happened to the Church?

The Lowest Common Denominator is that the Church has forgotten her First Love. When the Church remembers her First Love, she will start remembering all she Loves...

Remembering Him, will cause Her to Remember his Voice, his Love, his Faith, his Person; and her Honor for Him...

 

[Arial]

What has happened to the Church?

The Lowest Common Denominator is that the Church has forgotten her First Love. When the Church remembers her First Love, she will start remembering all of her Loves...

All for the glory of God, not man. And the only way to God is through and in Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

Sola scriptura (scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), soli Deo (for the glory of God alone.)

This of course was the battle cry of the Reformation as brave men often sacrificed their lives and freedom to pull away from the teaching and oppression of Rome, seeking to return to Christ's church the foundation of doctrine laid by the apostles. To exalt again the Chief Cornerstone, Christ Jesus as having dominion and headship over His church, and put the Bible back into the hands of the people. All for the glory of God.

Have we, in this age of modernism tossed aside as old fashioned and too restrictive, the powerful, God inspired work of these men?

Obviously we have. Scarcely any of the foundational wall still stands, and certainly our gates have been burned with the fire of modernism. And there are as many reasons as there are heresies and in many cases no Biblical doctrine at all. It cannot be denied however, that out of the Reformation came the doctrines of the radical fall of man, the predestination and election by God, that salvation is of God from beginning to end in the process of redemption, that it is His grace alone that applies the work of Christ and that it is always effective in that for which it is sent, that Jesus died for those His Father gave HIm, and that God preserves them in perseverance to the end.

Out of the Reformation came the confessions and catechisms and creeds that stated these things be they those of the Germain, Swiss, English or Scottish reformations. They agreed on these points and from them all other doctrine flowed. I believe that the first stone removed that led to the vulnerability of the whole wall that enclosed Christ's church doctrinally, was the removal of these confessions and catechisms. What followed, in various ways and by various people and schools of thought, including philosophy, was the almost complete take over in the church of the idea of man's free will being the thing that gave a person salvation or withheld it from him. He could choose to believe the gospel or he could reject it.

Once this was embraced, the wall began crumbling beneath the hands of darkness masquerading as light, feeding and validating every desire for autonomy, to be out from under the heavy hand of God. Sound doctrine went out the window. Theology became whatever a person chose to believe.

This could be very discouraging, and it is, but still light shines in the darkness. God is not losing. He is not even surprised. It is what the evil one does since Christ has already defeated the power of sin and death in His children. God still laughs at all those who rage against Him, His King is still on Zion, still calling the lambs, still gathering them in. It is in the comfort and security of God's faithfulness found only in the doctrines of the hated TULIP that we have any peace in the midst of this. He will lose none! No matter how loud the voice of deceit cries out, He knows who are His and He faithfully, one by one, gathers them to Christ.

Even in the midst of altar calls that promise good things, possessions, my will be done, and nothing of Christ but maybe that one small quote "I am the way, the truth, and the life," someone hears that still small voice calling and follows the Shepherd, even in this arid environment, for the Father has given new birth to a babe, placing them in the Savior.
All the same we are called to pray for His church, perhaps with the urgency and longing of Nehemiah, "Father have mercy on your people, for our walls are torn down and our gates are burned with fire." All for the glory of God---not us.

Hi Arial,

I hear you and agree if you are talking about man`s religious denominations. Of course they would progress more and more to connect to the world`s system. And partnership with the world is enmity with God. (James 4: 4)

The true Body of Christ is being built and matured by the Head through the Holy Spirit. He is bringing it to fulfillment in Himself. (Eph. 4: 11 - 16) And this is through believers across the world and over the centuries.

Just because we cannot see them all does not negate what the Lord is doing. The religious system with its meetings is visible whereas the everyday believer and what the Lord is doing in and through their lives is not so visible.

Let us rejoice and trust the great Head of His body that He is well able to do what He had purposed.

 

[Arial]

Hi Arial,

I hear you and agree if you are talking about man`s religious denominations. Of course they would progress more and more to connect to the world`s system. And partnership with the world is enmity with God. (James 4: 4)

The true Body of Christ is being built and matured by the Head through the Holy Spirit. He is bringing it to fulfillment in Himself. (Eph. 4: 11 - 16) And this is through believers across the world and over the centuries.

Just because we cannot see them all does not negate what the Lord is doing. The religious system with its meetings is visible whereas the everyday believer and what the Lord is doing in and through their lives is not so visible.

Let us rejoice and trust the great Head of His body that He is well able to do what He had purposed.

It is the visible church I speak of when I ask what has happened to the church? Not necessarily denominations as many consider themselves nondenominational. And as I said at the end of the OP even in the midst of the lack of sound doctrinal teaching and sound theology, God still brings His people to Christ. That can only happen because it is God doing it.

I am talking about the inconsistencies of teaching in truly Christian churches and those that pass as Christian even though they may deny some of the crucial tenets of Christianity. The deity of Christ, virgin birth, even substitutionary atonement. And I speak of the ways in which the world is brought in for the sake of having a greater appeal, especially the young, even in violation of the commandments of God. The ways in which it becomes like the world and bows to modern culture.

Do you think this door was opened when the confessions and catechisms were removed, and therefore there was no longer any standard and consistency of teaching or theology developed through the whole counsel of God?

 

[Marilyn C]

It is the visible church I speak of when I ask what has happened to the church? Not necessarily denominations as many consider themselves nondenominational. And as I said at the end of the OP even in the midst of the lack of sound doctrinal teaching and sound theology, God still brings His people to Christ. That can only happen because it is God doing it.

I am talking about the inconsistencies of teaching in truly Christian churches and those that pass as Christian even though they may deny some of the crucial tenets of Christianity. The deity of Christ, virgin birth, even substitutionary atonement. And I speak of the ways in which the world is brought in for the sake of having a greater appeal, especially the young, even in violation of the commandments of God. The ways in which it becomes like the world and bows to modern culture.

Do you think this door was opened when the confessions and catechisms were removed, and therefore there was no longer any standard and consistency of teaching or theology developed through the whole counsel of God?

But those denom or nondenom are still organizations of man. The errors started as Paul said `not holding fast to the Head...` (Col. 2: 19) From there the believers started following `men.`

`For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you in the face.` (2 Cor. 11: 20)

Bondage - telling you when and how and where you are to meet.
devours - press down, making one feel subject to their rule.
takes - time, energy, money, ability to make disciples, ability to hear the Holy Spirit etc.
exalts himself - lording it over by being in charge and being the one to hear from God.
strikes you - puts you down if you disagree.

 

[Arial]

But those denom or nondenom are still organizations of man. The errors started as Paul said `not holding fast to the Head...` (Col. 2: 19) From there the believers started following `men.`

`For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you in the face.` (2 Cor. 11: 20)

Bondage - telling you when and how and where you are to meet.
devours - press down, making one feel subject to their rule.
takes - time, energy, money, ability to make disciples, ability to hear the Holy Spirit etc.
exalts himself - lording it over by being in charge and being the one to hear from God.
strikes you - puts you down if you disagree.

I am not sure what you are saying.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

even in the midst of the lack of sound doctrinal teaching and sound theology, God still brings His people to Christ. That can only happen because it is God doing it.

Absolutely true - even in the case of blatantly NON-Christian systems (Like Mormonism, JWs, or ISLAM), God can STILL reach them. Abraham, after all was just a "Heathen" - when God Broke into his life.

 

[Marilyn C]

I am not sure what you are saying.

Hi Arial,

Now you said -

`It is the visible church I speak of when I ask what has happened to the church? Not necessarily denominations as many consider themselves nondenominational. And as I said at the end of the OP even in the midst of the lack of sound doctrinal teaching and sound theology, God still brings His people to Christ. That can only happen because it is God doing it.

I am talking about the inconsistencies of teaching in truly Christian churches and those that pass as Christian even though they may deny some of the crucial tenets of Christianity. The deity of Christ, virgin birth, even substitutionary atonement. And I speak of the ways in which the world is brought in for the sake of having a greater appeal, especially the young, even in violation of the commandments of God. The ways in which it becomes like the world and bows to modern culture.

Do you think this door was opened when the confessions and catechisms were removed, and therefore there was no longer any standard and consistency of teaching or theology developed through the whole counsel of God?`

I quoted Paul who warned the Colossians of `not holding fast to the head (Christ) from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

In the visible religious meetings run by religious organizations man has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit and is attempting to organize the believers, telling them when and where and how they should come together, and what they think God is saying, and how the believer should live, and give his money, his energy and time to.

Whereas the ministries of the ascended Lord, are for equipping the believer to disciple and minister to others, (Eph. 4: 11 & 12). It is the believer who needs to hear the Head by way of the Holy Spirit, for guidance, for encouragement, for direction of time, money, energy, etc.

 

[Arial]

In the visible religious meetings run by religious organizations man has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit and is attempting to organize the believers, telling them when and where and how they should come together, and what they think God is saying, and how the believer should live, and give his money, his energy and time to.

Whereas the ministries of the ascended Lord, are for equipping the believer to disciple and minister to others, (Eph. 4: 11 & 12). It is the believer who needs to hear the Head by way of the Holy Spirit, for guidance, for encouragement, for direction of time, money, energy, etc.

I don't disagree with what you say, maybe ever so slightly with that last sentence, which I will get to momentarily.

In many of the visible churches today, even those who do adhere to the salvific doctrines of the traditional church, the actual teachings of scripture on the qualifications and duties of pastors and elder are abandoned. A person often appoints himself as a pastor and starts his own church with no oversight or testing. And proceeds to teach whatever his opinion is. And to do so without expounding on the scriptures, putting together whatever he teaches with the whole counsel of God, but in a scripturally isolated "My message to day is---".

And it is true that every Christian has the responsibility to check for themselves the validity of what is said, they have never been equipped to do so, and fail to equip themselves. If they like what is being said that is good enough. If it sounds right and a scripture is used, then it is right. It is the pastor's duty to equip the saints for those things you mentioned but that can't be done without first equipping them to be able to defend the faith. If a person is preaching the gospel to an unbeliever they are liable to be asked a whole bunch of questions. The first probably being why does it matter what the Bible says or that you say it is the word of God?

So back to my original hypothesis. That the removal of the confessions of the Reformation from the majority of churches is the primary culprit in this happening. Personally I think that was one of satan's most destructive weapons that he used men to accomplish. I am sure the Reformation made him furious. He thought he had his victory over God all sewed up with the RCC of that day.

I am not suggesting that there are no places that adhere to the teachings in those confessions even though they do not use the form of confessions. Because there are. For example there are Calvinist Baptists (no confessions) and Reformed Baptist (a confession.) Confessions are used as teaching tools and as accountability and ordaining tools as well, keeping all teaching consistent and consistent with the Bible. And I don't have a problem with that. It is not the confessions I am elevating above all else.

However, where there are no boundaries of a confession there comes in variation in some things between the churches of the same denomination. A less solid grounding. Of course that is only my opinion, what I see and how I see it. Something isn't wrong simply because it is an opinion---otherwise everything could be said to be wrong.

 

[atpollard]

An observation from one that entered Christianity from the outside (Atheism/Nihilism). WE (the Church), the collective body of believers, are far too individualistic (like our culture) to correctly comprehend what Jesus was actually calling His sheep to. We have been called INDIVIDUALLY into a COLLECTIVE FAMILY. We have been called to HEAR and DO (not merely to hear and stop doing).

WE (the Church), the collective body of believers, also ask far too little of those that would follow Christ. All claims to the contrary notwithstanding, we seem more like we are recruiting members for a club, rather than DISCIPLES for a KINGDOM. The more I learn about THEN, the wider and deeper the gap to what we call for now.

Just one small example: If I wanted to join a GANG, I would be jumped in by willingly suffering a beating to prove that I was strong enough to be a member and REALLY wanted to belong. Once in, I would be in for LIFE … Blood in, blood out. If I want to become a Christian in most churches, I need to raise my hand as someone else says a few words and the room closes their eyes so I will not potentially be embarrassed. Then I am free to drift in or out … the church added a mark to their count.

Is that really the “cost” that Jesus warned us to count if we would follow Him?

I don’t advocate “jumping in” for salvation, but having to show enough courage and conviction to push to the front of the room of people all staring at you to SAY the words for yourself “JESUS IS MY LORD”, might not be a bad place to start. If you had to WANT it bad enough to shove past a Deacon playing defense … so much the better!

 

[Marilyn C]

I don't disagree with what you say, maybe ever so slightly with that last sentence, which I will get to momentarily.

In many of the visible churches today, even those who do adhere to the salvific doctrines of the traditional church, the actual teachings of scripture on the qualifications and duties of pastors and elder are abandoned. A person often appoints himself as a pastor and starts his own church with no oversight or testing. And proceeds to teach whatever his opinion is. And to do so without expounding on the scriptures, putting together whatever he teaches with the whole counsel of God, but in a scripturally isolated "My message to day is---".

And it is true that every Christian has the responsibility to check for themselves the validity of what is said, they have never been equipped to do so, and fail to equip themselves. If they like what is being said that is good enough. If it sounds right and a scripture is used, then it is right. It is the pastor's duty to equip the saints for those things you mentioned but that can't be done without first equipping them to be able to defend the faith. If a person is preaching the gospel to an unbeliever they are liable to be asked a whole bunch of questions. The first probably being why does it matter what the Bible says or that you say it is the word of God?

So back to my original hypothesis. That the removal of the confessions of the Reformation from the majority of churches is the primary culprit in this happening. Personally I think that was one of satan's most destructive weapons that he used men to accomplish. I am sure the Reformation made him furious. He thought he had his victory over God all sewed up with the RCC of that day.

I am not suggesting that there are no places that adhere to the teachings in those confessions even though they do not use the form of confessions. Because there are. For example there are Calvinist Baptists (no confessions) and Reformed Baptist (a confession.) Confessions are used as teaching tools and as accountability and ordaining tools as well, keeping all teaching consistent and consistent with the Bible. And I don't have a problem with that. It is not the confessions I am elevating above all else.

However, where there are no boundaries of a confession there comes in variation in some things between the churches of the same denomination. A less solid grounding. Of course that is only my opinion, what I see and how I see it. Something isn't wrong simply because it is an opinion---otherwise everything could be said to be wrong.

Thank you Arial for that detailed response. I agree that many are a law unto themselves and leading people astray. Now confessions are good however one can just say them as rote. Also the Holy Spirit was sent by the Lord to lead us into all truth. This has been over the centuries and often when a truth is clarified (eg. believer`s baptism) there comes opposition and it takes a while for the general Body of Christ to accept that clarification.

I also think of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, ` and the clarification of the Spirit`s giftings. That wasn`t accepted at first by many and people were ostracized etc, then over time the general Body of Christ has accepted that clarification of truth. And so on.

Then there is the battle against all the errors and heresies, so it is not an easy road theologically as well as personally in people`s lives trying to live out some of the crazy ideas that have spewed forth over the past couple of decades especially.

But then I would not expect anything differently as the enemy does not want the Body of Christ to come to the unity of faith and maturity in Christ, (Eph. 4: 13) for he knows that we will rule and reign in the very highest position that he was in as the kingpriest of angels.

 

[Arial]

Thank you Arial for that detailed response. I agree that many are a law unto themselves and leading people astray. Now confessions are good however one can just say them as rote. Also the Holy Spirit was sent by the Lord to lead us into all truth. This has been over the centuries and often when a truth is clarified (eg. believer`s baptism) there comes opposition and it takes a while for the general Body of Christ to accept that clarification.

One can say anything by rote---even Christ came in the flesh, or Christ is Lord---and not have any idea who He is or what that means. In fact many do. That is not the issue. The issue is being taught the truth so they hear the truth, and keeping the teachings uniform, therein keeping the unity in the faith. The believing is in the hands of God.

As to a truth being clarified, it is clarified by the Bible and nothing else. What are you saying was the clarification on baptism?

I also think of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, ` and the clarification of the Spirit`s giftings. That wasn`t accepted at first by many and people were ostracized etc, then over time the general Body of Christ has accepted that clarification of truth. And so on.

That depends on two things, and an assumption.

The assumption is that something wasn't accepted in the past and is accepted now, therefore what is accepted now is right. And who those were would need to be clarified as well as what the clarification is. (Plus the Bible does not speak of being "infilled" by the Holy Spirit but rather being indwelt by the Holy Spirit or filled with the Spirit.
1. What is the clarification?
2.Who determined that the clarification is correct and how did they do so?

Then there is the battle against all the errors and heresies, so it is not an easy road theologically as well as personally in people`s lives trying to live out some of the crazy ideas that have spewed forth over the past couple of decades especially.

A heresie must be a heresie from something. So something that Christianity deems heresy is opposed to the established traditional Christian doctrine. There has been no official change in the protestant doctrines that were established in the Reformation and have been put forth in written form in the creeds, confession and catechisms. Official meaning debated through scripture involving many participants in careful study of the scriptures and debate of the issue. Councils, bulls, synods in any form, whatever you want to call them.

So imo that is what happened to the church. Everyone makes up their own doctrines, has their own theology, interprets scriptures however they want without using a fraction of hermeneutical tools or rules of interpretation. There is no unity of faith if one considers all the visible congregations that are intended to be in unity. And compromise does not create unity. But it is rich fodder for forums. It is what gives them life.

 

[Marilyn C]

One can say anything by rote---even Christ came in the flesh, or Christ is Lord---and not have any idea who He is or what that means. In fact many do. That is not the issue. The issue is being taught the truth so they hear the truth, and keeping the teachings uniform, therein keeping the unity in the faith. The believing is in the hands of God.

As to a truth being clarified, it is clarified by the Bible and nothing else. What are you saying was the clarification on baptism?

That depends on two things, and an assumption.

The assumption is that something wasn't accepted in the past and is accepted now, therefore what is accepted now is right. And who those were would need to be clarified as well as what the clarification is. (Plus the Bible does not speak of being "infilled" by the Holy Spirit but rather being indwelt by the Holy Spirit or filled with the Spirit.
1. What is the clarification?
2.Who determined that the clarification is correct and how did they do so?


A heresie must be a heresie from something. So something that Christianity deems heresy is opposed to the established traditional Christian doctrine. There has been no official change in the protestant doctrines that were established in the Reformation and have been put forth in written form in the creeds, confession and catechisms. Official meaning debated through scripture involving many participants in careful study of the scriptures and debate of the issue. Councils, bulls, synods in any form, whatever you want to call them.

So imo that is what happened to the church. Everyone makes up their own doctrines, has their own theology, interprets scriptures however they want without using a fraction of hermeneutical tools or rules of interpretation. There is no unity of faith if one considers all the visible congregations that are intended to be in unity. And compromise does not create unity. But it is rich fodder for forums. It is what gives them life.

I agree that something clarified by the Holy Spirit is in line with God`s word.

Think of infant baptism, in the early centuries and then many centuries later the Holy Spirit clarified the truth that it was a believer`s baptism. Also, the `infilling,` I referred to comes from Eph. 5: 18, `being filled with the Spirit.`

Paul taught the whole counsel of God, (Acts 20: 27 and then warned that false teachers would come in. And over the centuries we have seen those errors and heresies. And as the Lord said He would give His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, (John 16: 13) and that is a process.

Truth clarified is received by a few at first then over time it is received across the Body.

The creeds and confessions are good and important (as you rightly point out) however they do not include the `whole counsel of God` that the Holy Spirit is guiding us into.

 

[Arial]

Think of infant baptism, in the early centuries and then many centuries later the Holy Spirit clarified the truth that it was a believer`s baptism. Also, the `infilling,` I referred to comes from Eph. 5: 18, `being filled with the Spirit.`

We don't actually know if infants were being baptised during Bible times from the Bible. We see believers being baptised but you have to remember that those coming to Christ after Pentecost were adults. Maybe there is a historical record of when infant baptism began but it became a part of tradition and was said to actually save, in the RCC. Some denominations still have infant baptism but not as a saving rite as the RCC. Personally I am neutral on the matter. People can do what they want. Baptism doesn't save.

So what you speak of here is not the Holy Spirit clarifying truth. It was the RCC becoming almost completely heretical from the apostolic (NT) church and the reformer's restoring the apostolic teaching.

I referred to comes from Eph. 5: 18, `being filled with the Spirit.`

As I said. "being filled" not infilling. One can say it is quibbling over words, but "infilling' is used in certain sects as something completely different from what Paul is talking about.

And as the Lord said He would give His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, (John 16: 13) and that is a process.

Actually Jesus said that to His disciples (the apostles) and what the Holy Spirit taught them is what we find in the NT Acts and the epistles. These were things they could not understand until after the ascension.

Truth clarified is received by a few at first then over time it is received across the Body.

So---what about all those people who came before those "few" who the Holy Spirit did not reveal the truth to? That was Kenneth Hagins claim, that more was revealed to him than was to Paul. It implies that all the truth is not in the Bible. That is the foundation of authority false teachers teeter on.

The creeds and confessions are good and important (as you rightly point out) however they do not include the `whole counsel of God` that the Holy Spirit is guiding us into.

Exactly what do you think "the whole counsel of God" means? I really would like you to answer that question as per your earlier statement that we cannot have a productive discussion unless what we mean is clarified. And it sounds from this like you do not consider it to mean what it does mean.

 

[Marilyn C]

We don't actually know if infants were being baptised during Bible times from the Bible. We see believers being baptised but you have to remember that those coming to Christ after Pentecost were adults. Maybe there is a historical record of when infant baptism began but it became a part of tradition and was said to actually save, in the RCC. Some denominations still have infant baptism but not as a saving rite as the RCC. Personally I am neutral on the matter. People can do what they want. Baptism doesn't save.

So what you speak of here is not the Holy Spirit clarifying truth. It was the RCC becoming almost completely heretical from the apostolic (NT) church and the reformer's restoring the apostolic teaching.

As I said. "being filled" not infilling. One can say it is quibbling over words, but "infilling' is used in certain sects as something completely different from what Paul is talking about.

Actually Jesus said that to His disciples (the apostles) and what the Holy Spirit taught them is what we find in the NT Acts and the epistles. These were things they could not understand until after the ascension.

So---what about all those people who came before those "few" who the Holy Spirit did not reveal the truth to? That was Kenneth Hagins claim, that more was revealed to him than was to Paul. It implies that all the truth is not in the Bible. That is the foundation of authority false teachers teeter on.

Exactly what do you think "the whole counsel of God" means? I really would like you to answer that question as per your earlier statement that we cannot have a productive discussion unless what we mean is clarified. And it sounds from this like you do not consider it to mean what it does mean.

I agree the RCC became mostly heretical.
The 12 apostles did not have the revelation of the Body of Christ which the Lord gave to the apostle Paul later.
We both agree that there is no more revelation than what God has said in His word that He wants us to know at this time.
I believe the Holy Spirit is always clarifying truth to believers however there are blockages in our thinking and thus some see the truth earlier than others.

The `whole Counsel of God,` is what we read of in scripture, and then understand. However, because of blockages, or misunderstandings we see things differently. So, I will try and give you my understanding of the whole counsel of God in summary.

1. All scripture unfolds the revelation by the Father of His Son, His names, titles and offices.

2. All scripture reveals God`s purposes through His Son for the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ.

3. All scripture reveals God`s timing for these groups and their inheritances.

It is only when the NT was written that the `whole counsel ` of God was revealed.

 

[Synergy]

Sola scriptura (scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), soli Deo (for the glory of God alone.)

This of course was the battle cry of the Reformation as brave men often sacrificed their lives and freedom to pull away from the teaching and oppression of Rome, seeking to return to Christ's church the foundation of doctrine laid by the apostles. To exalt again the Chief Cornerstone, Christ Jesus as having dominion and headship over His church, and put the Bible back into the hands of the people. All for the glory of God.

Have we, in this age of modernism tossed aside as old fashioned and too restrictive, the powerful, God inspired work of these men?

Obviously we have. Scarcely any of the foundational wall still stands, and certainly our gates have been burned with the fire of modernism. And there are as many reasons as there are heresies and in many cases no Biblical doctrine at all. It cannot be denied however, that out of the Reformation came the doctrines of the radical fall of man, the predestination and election by God, that salvation is of God from beginning to end in the process of redemption, that it is His grace alone that applies the work of Christ and that it is always effective in that for which it is sent, that Jesus died for those His Father gave HIm, and that God preserves them in perseverance to the end.

Out of the Reformation came the confessions and catechisms and creeds that stated these things be they those of the Germain, Swiss, English or Scottish reformations. They agreed on these points and from them all other doctrine flowed. I believe that the first stone removed that led to the vulnerability of the whole wall that enclosed Christ's church doctrinally, was the removal of these confessions and catechisms. What followed, in various ways and by various people and schools of thought, including philosophy, was the almost complete take over in the church of the idea of man's free will being the thing that gave a person salvation or withheld it from him. He could choose to believe the gospel or he could reject it.

Once this was embraced, the wall began crumbling beneath the hands of darkness masquerading as light, feeding and validating every desire for autonomy, to be out from under the heavy hand of God. Sound doctrine went out the window. Theology became whatever a person chose to believe.

This could be very discouraging, and it is, but still light shines in the darkness. God is not losing. He is not even surprised. It is what the evil one does since Christ has already defeated the power of sin and death in His children. God still laughs at all those who rage against Him, His King is still on Zion, still calling the lambs, still gathering them in. It is in the comfort and security of God's faithfulness found only in the doctrines of the hated TULIP that we have any peace in the midst of this. He will lose none! No matter how loud the voice of deceit cries out, He knows who are His and He faithfully, one by one, gathers them to Christ.

Even in the midst of altar calls that promise good things, possessions, my will be done, and nothing of Christ but maybe that one small quote "I am the way, the truth, and the life," someone hears that still small voice calling and follows the Shepherd, even in this arid environment, for the Father has given new birth to a babe, placing them in the Savior.
All the same we are called to pray for His church, perhaps with the urgency and longing of Nehemiah, "Father have mercy on your people, for our walls are torn down and our gates are burned with fire." All for the glory of God---not us.

You led your discussion with the 5 Solas and asked what went wrong. Personally, I believe that some of the Solas should have been better aligned with what the Bible and History actually does tell us.

Sola Scriptura: The Church was established, to guide Christians, several decades before the first Epistle was ever penned, let alone distributed to all the churches. This is a fact that does not belittle the salvific power of the Bible. Nevertheless, the Apostles bequeathed to us both the Bible and the Church. Where is that Church, the visible Body of Christ, today?

Solus Christus: We are Trinitarians, aren't we? Without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit we would not be saved (Titus 3:5-6).

Sola Fide: The only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible actually destroys Sola Fide (James 2:24). All attempts to rationalize that verse away always fail against the clear message of James 2.

Sola Gratia: Our very breath is by the Grace of God.

Soli Deo Gloria: God does share His Glory with Believers (John 17:22).

 

[atpollard]

You led your discussion with the 5 Solas and asked what went wrong. Personally, I believe that some of the Solas should have been better aligned with what the Bible and History actually does tell us.

Sola Scriptura: The Church was established, to guide Christians, several decades before the first Epistle was ever penned, let alone distributed to all the churches. This is a fact that does not belittle the salvific power of the Bible. Nevertheless, the Apostles bequeathed to us both the Bible and the Church. Where is that Church, the visible Body of Christ, today?

Solus Christus: We are Trinitarians, aren't we? Without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit we would not be saved (Titus 3:5-6).

Sola Fide: The only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible actually destroys Sola Fide (James 2:24). All attempts to rationalize that verse away always fail against the clear message of James 2.

Sola Gratia: Our very breath is by the Grace of God.

Soli Deo Gloria: God does share His Glory with Believers (John 17:22).

Except the subject of the 5 Solas is restricted to JUSTIFICATION and exists as a foil to the SYNERGISTIC WORKS “Sacarment-centric“ Justification doctrine of the time of the Reformation as practiced by the Church in Rome.

 

[Synergy]

Except the subject of the 5 Solas is restricted to JUSTIFICATION and exists as a foil to the SYNERGISTIC WORKS “Sacarment-centric“ Justification doctrine of the time of the Reformation as practiced by the Church in Rome.

Even there the 5 Solas fail. Take for example, Sola Fide. The only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible actually destroys Sola Fide (James 2:24). All attempts to rationalize that verse away always fail against the clear message of James 2.

 

[atpollard]

Even there the 5 Solas fail. Take for example, Sola Fide. The only Sola Fide verse in the entire Bible actually destroys Sola Fide (James 2:24). All attempts to rationalize that verse away always fail against the clear message of James 2.

Are you claiming Justification by Faith and our Works?
(I just want to be clear about what YOU believe … I know what point James was making.)