What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?

[makesends]

John 8:47, which teaches that only those who belong to God listen and respond to his words; "You don't listen and respond, because you don't belong to God." In other words, the potential to believe is not universal. It exists only in those who belong to God and only by his powerful grace. The issue is belonging, not opportunity.

Exactly right.

I remember thinking the same 'reasoning believer' way; the whole notion is based on the assumption that God would not demand from anyone what is impossible for them to do.

("The command implies the ability to obey" is axiomatic to those insisting on self-determination. After all, "it would not be just for God to expect something from those who cannot produce it, and it would be illogical.")

 

[ReverendRV]

Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

Dave

Yes; we're Justified through Faith Alone, Sola Fide...

Yet we abide in Faith, Hope and Love; the greatest of these is Love is Faith Dead without Works, Hope and Love?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes; we're Justified through Faith Alone, Sola Fide...

Yet we abide in Faith, Hope and Love; the greatest of these is Love is Faith Dead without Works, Hope and Love?

Amen.

Paul called the corinthian church babes.

We are saved as a baby, needing not only to learn and grow. But to learn to trust our new father. Those born of God will not just walk on their own. Still living in sin.. If they do this, It is a claimed faith. And can not save

 

[Josheb]

Hi Josh

I hold Biblical consistency over theological consistency.

The posts prove otherwise.

I and a number of other posters have pointed out multiple exegetical errors in the posts here and other recent threads. It is not possible to have "Biblical consistency" with multiple exegetical errors.

You kept saying that I should test my own beliefs, when you never realized, that's exactly what I have been doing.

Again, the posts prove otherwise. I have yet to read a single correction of any of the mistakes made in exegesis. At the core of the problems is a propensity to apply verses written about the already saved, regenerate, believer to the unsaved, unregenerate, non-believer. This has happened in multiple threads and multiple posters have asked for an explicit example from scripture only to have that request treated with silence. The result is a supposed "Biblical consistency" in which the exegesis is woefully errant and the position without explicit precedent.

Go to Christianforum.net, check "Dave...". You'll see twenty years of posting history.

You mean like this one HERE? I've seen it. Do you understand how disingenuous it is to claim you're trying to understand something after asserting twenty years of posting history? How can anyone logically claim to have any knowledge of soteriology if they do not understand what "Penalty for sin is death" means?


It's just as bad there as it is here. I applaud any growth that has occurred over the last twenty years but the positions asserted are still incorrect. To add to the errors there is also an element of hubris in which you explicitly state an intent to challenge others..... with mistaken viewpoints!!! No one is challenged by error. That is an error in and of itself.

There are some big names in the reformed circles who make the same kind of mistakes with similar passages.

I do not care. If and when any of them join CCAM (or any other forum) I'll take up those matters with them.

The framework of this discussion comes from my understanding of Scripture, and, unless they are yet undiscovered, it's not from theologians who died hundreds of years ago. In short, your answers must come from you.

And I have answered the question asked in the title of this op and addressed various other matters. That answer is still sitting in the thread silently unattended. Many other inquiries from multiple respondents also sit unattended. Based on that evidence it does not look like there is much understanding of scripture or much authenticity testing your own beliefs.

I've explained my understanding in this matter many times, and in many ways.

All of it proves wanting when error and silence are facts in evidence.

I've called myself reformed.

Yes, but without further clarification that is meaningless. Arminius was Reformed. Arminius embraced what we now call total depravity, and, according to what I have read in the post, you do not. Arminius was Augustinian in his view of unsaved, unregenerate humanity, and you are not.


During the Lincoln Douglas debates, Lincoln asked Douglas how many legs a sheep would have if we called the sheep's tail a leg. Douglas' response was if we call the sheep's tail a leg then the sheep has five legs. Lincoln replied, no, just because you call a sheep's tail a leg does not make it a leg. Calling oneself Reformed does not make it so. The criteria for what constitute being Reformed must apply and Reformed soteriology starts with the premise sinful humanity is, individually and corporately unable to understand and respond to any call to salvation. Even Arminius agreed with that position (and I have personally posted Arminius' words on that subject to you to prove that fact).

You say faith precedes regeneration. If that were the only position asserted, then you might still have some legitimacy calling yourself Reformed but the moment you start arguing various faculties of the sinfully dead and enslaved listener can hear and respond through faith solely in/with his sinful flesh your views depart from Arminius' and you're no longer Reformed.

...I'm not hiding it....

You are. Multiple posters have asked multiple questions and received no answers.

Genesis 3:8-10
They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?" He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

John 3:18-21 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Folks refusing to answer questions while claiming to desire discussion are hiding (and being disingenuous). That problem goes all the way back to Eden. It happens even among the regenerate, even among the most noted among us.

Romans 7:14-20
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The claim for a discussion is undermined by the absence of answers to many very basic, foundational inquiries and comments.

Just answer the questions from your heart, from your own understanding of Scripture.

Dave

I did. Those answers are sitting silently unaddressed in multiple threads even after having asked they be revisited and answered.


What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith? Life.

What say you?

Calling oneself "Reformed independent" is self-contradictory. It's an oxymoron. So, what are you really?

Pelagian?
Semi-Pelagian?
Provisionist?
Traditionalist?

Definitely not Reformed Arminian, Wesleyan, Reformed Calvinist, Reformed Lutheran, or Augustinian. I've posted quotes from Arminius, and links to Provisionism and Traditionalism. You say you've read Reformed theologians and found they make mistakes. So, what are? "I do not yet know," would be a much better answer than "Reformed independent."

 

[Dave]

There is no such thing as a Spirit-less new birth. Regeneration is the sovereign work of the Spirit who indwells, gives life, renews the heart, and brings the dead to life. To say a person is born again but not indwelt by the Spirit is to posit a Spirit-less spiritual birth—which is incoherent (John 3:6-8).

Apply that to these.

3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

27-28 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

—which happens with regeneration. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1). Faith is the fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it.

Anybody currently believing has been born again, because the start of that same faith results in being born again. So I can rightly say that "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ (now) has been born of God" (1 John 5:1). It doesn't matter if that faith began ten minutes ago, or fifty years ago, when it began, Jesus responds by placing the Holy Spirit in us.

You ignored the point. Please address it: "The issue is belonging, not opportunity."

I didn't ignore the point. This is not insignificant historical context that you are not considering. It's huge and defines everything in John.

They were not born again.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (born again)" But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. .

This plays right off of your silver bullet, John 3:14-16, which said the same thing. And goes on to say that they hate the light because they practice evil. That's the cause. See John 8:28, and John 12:32-34. When He is lifted up, He will draw all people to himself. That sounds universal, right? We could spiritualize it and say God's desire is not His His eternal purpose. That would get rid of passages like these. But, maybe we shouldn't do that. Maybe, God, really did so love the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him would have eternal life. Those passages start to pile up quickly...

1 Tim. 2:1-6 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

This likewise fails to address the point. Please do so: No one has the ability to come to Christ unless the Father grants him the ability. (In other words, the ability to believe is not universal.) "The notion that mere exposure to opportunity can unlock a universal ability to believe (even if only a potential)," I said, "appears to be flatly rejected by the very scriptures that define the nature of unregenerate unbelief, moral inability, and the necessity of sovereign monergistic grace."

They were not born again. But setting that aside, we have OT believers of OT revelation that, once Jesus ascends, they have no stop gap to hold them until they are upgraded in revelation. Remember, before Jesus ascended, He first descended, and preached to the spirits in Prison. (Jesus holds the keys to Hades and death), and then He took Paradise, Abrahams bosom to the third heaven. That takes care of the OT believers already dead. There are still OT believers alive during that transition period who have no place to go, there is no more holding cell. All the OT believers dead have ascended with Jesus (Remember John 3, no one had yet ascended but He who descended.) But when Jesus ascends, He takes those OT believers (physically dead) with Him to the Father. Now they can be with Him. The OT believers still living, they must believe the Gospel. They are true believers of OT revelation. Consider that these are the Sheep that God has given to Jesus, that He would not lose one of them. They already believe OT revelation), they already WILL hear His voice, they will come to Him, they just need to hear the Gospel and believe and be upgraded so they can go directly to the Father when they die. They need to be born again, in Christ, and justified, all which is the result of the indwelling to come after Jesus ascends. To them, His sheep, the ones that the Father has given Him, they will believe and be given the Spirit at Pentecost. There were a few OT believers who missed the whole thing (Acts 19). Paul, shared the gospel (upgraded there revelation and faith in the same), and they received the Holy Spirit accompanied by signs, because they were OT believers too. All of those sheep will believe, all but Judas. And there are other sheep, not of this fold (Gentiles), they will hear my voice, etc.

Passages to reference. John 10:1-16, 17:2-26

What subject is Paul discussing in this passage? Regeneration? Or the full experiential entrance into the new covenant economy, which includes sanctification? Since it's the latter, as you noticed ("they are being perfected"), then it doesn't support the point you're trying to argue.

It doesn't matter, the whole chapter speaks of what people here are claiming cannot happen. The context is works verses faith, but the faith side has valuable insight as to what that faith gives us. So Paul is teaching what a faith does for us, which is extremely relevant.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ (indwelling vs 2) have put on Christ.

2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The result of that baptism/indwelling

2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

It's right there, over and over. No need to "see" things into scripture. John 3:3

Regeneration is the Spirit’s secret, efficacious, quickening work. Indwelling is the Spirit’s abiding, empowering, manifest presence in the believer. The latter presupposes the former. "He saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Regeneration is life imparted; renewal is nature renovated (cf. Rom 12:2). so that the sinner not only lives (regeneration) but also believes, loves, and obeys (renewal). The one who believes (1 John 5:1), loves (4:7), and obeys (2:29) has been born of God (i.e., the perfect passive indicative γεγέννηται is used in all three).

You're claiming that regeneration can only happen with the indwelling of the Spirit. I won't go that far, because the OT believers didn't have the indwelling, yet they believed. But I will claim, as you do, that being born again can only happen with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Nobody in the OT was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Think about that for a minute. That's not something that can be glossed over easily. This is deep in Scripture. And they believed.

Faith is the context, not the cause. It is through faith, not because of faith. Regeneration imparts new life so the person can exercise faith and experience the powerful and manifest presence of the Spirit with an eschatological hope.

Through faith can mean two things. Either it's the cause, or it's the sanctification process, thus, through faith. As Paul Put is, being perfected by the Spirit.

And faith is the cause of being born again. So you have two options. Regeneration and born again are not synonymous. That somehow, whether it be the Holy spirit being upon a believers as He was in the OT, or the Word of God itself, or the flesh. OT believers believed as a result of one of those three. If there is another option, I don't' see it.

And you didn't answer it.

I did answer it, I simply allowed for all three possibilities listed above.

Lets get to mans state, for a minute. Keeping in mind again, that before John records the cross, none of the believers were born again, because none of them were indwelt. Those who can see will be blinded. Why, because of sin.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

It's the same reason Jesus spoke to them in parables (Matthew 13:13). It's judgment, a judicial blindness. There is accountability that comes with hearing the Gospel. That why faith come by hearing the Word of God. If you know the word of God, and continue in sin, there is accountability for that.

John 8:30-32 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Jesus' purpose was to bear witness to the truth. To reveal truth. He is the light, His Word is the light. The Holy Spirit is light. His Word is a lamp to my feet. This is what is rejected, by man and brings judgment, blindness. To continue in sin after the light reveals itself is death. Even then , the blindness is only partial. And it was God's plan to graft in the Gentiles.

Also see Acts 28:23-28,

 

[Dave]

The posts prove otherwise.

Sigh!

I've answered your questions Josh. I just recently stopped because you're posts were not answering my questions. You drowned that fact in mountains of intellectual gibberish and then peppered your posts with boasting and belittling comments, as if you proved something. I grew tired of that. Try digging through that to find the error, or the slight of hand, over and over. It's very time consuming. I asked you what you believe the Gospel is? You won't answer the question because your answer will be exactly the same Gospel that Paul said in...

Romans 10:8b-11...(that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Josh, you're obviously a smart person, much smarter than I'll ever be. You're vocabulary is well beyond anything close to mine. But I think that maybe subconsciously you try to weaponize that to win discussions because it intimidates people. Maybe, somewhere along the line you grew to rely on that, I don't know. It doesn't intimidate me, and I think that's frustrating to you. The next step is to ban me. I'm actually expecting it. It all depends on how far you are willing to go with this charade.

I'm not defending anything beyond the fact that being born again is the result of the indwelling, and that is the result of faith. OT believers could not be born again. NT believers could not be born again before faith. They are indwelt as a result of faith, and that indwelling makes them born again. I believe that I've shown that with Scripture. If fact, quite a bit of Scripture. The rest (This thread) is not a position to be defended, but an answer to be searched for. I'm posing questions. I'm digging. I'm looking at it from views that I don't even believe are accurate. What label says that?

Genesis 3:8-10
They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?" He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

John 3:18-21 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Folks refusing to answer questions while claiming to desire discussion are hiding (and being disingenuous). That problem goes all the way back to Eden. It happens even among the regenerate, even among the most noted among us.

Romans 7:14-20
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good isnot. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I did. Those answers are sitting silently unaddressed in multiple threads even after having asked they be revisited and answered.

These aren't questions Josh. You get that, right?

Where are the questions? Quote them for me please. Remember, I offered to go back over every post in this thread.

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith? Life.

And that life is given to them as a result of the Spirits indwelling, which is a result of faith, as I've shown with Scripture in this thread. That's the elephant in the room that everybody pretends isn't there. Did you ever consider the possibility that I did answer your questions, but you're not seeing the significance of what I'm writing, and the scripture that I'm posting in reply?

What say you?

Calling oneself "Reformed independent" is self-contradictory. It's an oxymoron. So, what are you really?

Pelagian?
Semi-Pelagian?
Provisionist?
Traditionalist?

Definitely not Reformed Arminian, Wesleyan, Reformed Calvinist, Reformed Lutheran, or Augustinian. I've posted quotes from Arminius, and links to Provisionism and Traditionalism. You say you've read Reformed theologians and found they make mistakes. So, what are? "I do not yet know," would be a much better answer than "Reformed independent."

With all due respect, what part of 'I don't care about theological labels' did you not understand? Why do you need labels so bad? Burn them to the ground if you like, I don't care. It's so completely insignificant to me, but it seems so very important to you. Can you tell me why? My beliefs don't belong to a dead theologians name, they belong to the Bible. If you think that I'm wrong, show me in the Bible, not by calling me a name worn by a dead theologian.

If your reply is going to be more of the same, just a heads up, I'm not going to reply to it. I'm too tired.

Dave

 

[Dave]

This line of thought reflects the dispensational-Pentecostal assumptions that tie regeneration to a post-faith reception of the Spirit, and that see the Old Testament saints as not truly regenerate. It is a hybrid of revivalist soteriology, dispensational eschatology, and charismatic pneumatology, which teaches that

• in the Old Testament, believers were not indwelt by the Spirit,
  
  ​
• the new birth as we know it did not occur,
  
  ​
• the Holy Spirit was only given after Christ's glorification,
  
  ​
• therefore, the "birth from above" began after Pentecost,
  
  ​
• and now, one is born again by receiving the Spirit through baptism in the Holy Spirit.

John, the whole reason Pentecostals/Charismatics believe in the doctrine of subsequence is because they believe that the Gospels are the NT from beginning to end. They reason that if those in the NT (really OT) were already born again (like you do), then what happened at Pentecost must be something more. That's why they claim that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is to be desired and sought after by someone who is already born again, thus subsequent to being converted. That Idea actually has a lot in common with todays Calvinists, who do not see the connection between the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling. When we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a result of faith, that IS the baptism with the Holy Spirit. There was a unique time in history when believers had to wait for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Those would be OT believers who trusted in Jesus both before the cross, and after the resurrection, and ascension. The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit was due to them, but could only be given to them after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. So, unless you're an OT believer who trusted in Jesus both before and after the cross, there no waiting, the moment one first believes, Jesus places the Holy Spirit in us, that's the baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit that unites us with Jesus, the indwelling, making us one with Him.

Pentecostal Theology

Pentecostalism is a Spirit-emphasizing movement that is characterized by baptism in the Spirit for Christians after conversion and speaking in tongues.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[brightfame52]

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?​

Love for Christ, Faith must be accompanied with love. When the persecuting saul was converted to Faith in Christ, Gods Grace was abundant towards him replacing his hate with love and his unbelief with faith in Christ 1 Tim 1:12-15

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Faith without charity love to Christ is worthless 1 Cor 13:1-2

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And nobody has Love for Christ by nature !

 

[Dave]

John

I wanted to elaborate, as I ran out of time at the end of post #125.

This verse, John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Think about how is it granted by the Father. This is still the OT. Jesus is still speaking in parables. The Word is the Seed. Just before that Jesus said this...

:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

It was granted to them because they heard the Word. It was kept from others, not for no reason, but as judgment. This idea from Isaiah 6:9-10 is repeated in the NT explaining why people rejected the message. Their hearts were hardened. Isaiah 6:9-10 was why Jesus spoke in parables. See Matthew 13:13-16, and then He goes right into the parable of the Sower. See Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, John 12:38-40, Acts 28:26-27. Thus God did not grant them as judgement.

Isaiah 6:9-10 And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."

 

[Dave]

Love for Christ, Faith must be accompanied with love. When the persecuting saul was converted to Faith in Christ, Gods Grace was abundant towards him replacing his hate with love and his unbelief with faith in Christ 1 Tim 1:12-15

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Faith without charity love to Christ is worthless 1 Cor 13:1-2

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And nobody has Love for Christ by nature !

Could we say that all of that is the result of being born again?

 

[Carbon]

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?​

Just one thing, and it's quite simple. "Regeneration."

 

[John Bauer]

Facing the massive wall of text comprised of three separate posts is overwhelming, to put it mildly, so what I want to do is isolate a single line of argument from the torrent of proof-texts @Dave has assembled, strip away the digressions on Pentecost, dispensational eschatology, and Old Testament saints, and leave myself with one controlling claim—which I believe is the following charismatic pneumatology:

• A person is born again only when, and because, he receives the Spirit as a post-faith seal (Gal 3:2; Eph 1:13), thus faith logically precedes regeneration.

Everything else in his wall of text either assumes or attempts to reinforce that thesis.

Conflating sealing and quickening. Galatians 3 and Ephesians 1 do teach that believers receive the Spirit through faith (context), but that is not to say it is because of faith (cause). The reception in view is the Spirit's covenantal sealing and abiding witness, not his initial life-giving act. Paul is talking to people who are already "sons of God through faith" (Gal 3:26) and explaining the experiential privileges that flow from that status. As I said previously, the same apostle elsewhere distinguishes the Spirit's "washing of the new birth" from his ongoing "renewing" (Titus 3:5), and he places the quickening at bottom of the faith that now walks by the Spirit (cf. Eph 2:5, 8). To equate sealing with quickening is to treat every reference to the Spirit as referentially identical, a lexical fallacy that collapses the Spirit’s work into a single thing. I need only expose that category error and the Galatians and Ephesians texts no longer carry the argumentative freight he loads onto them.

Ignoring the biblical testimony of moral inability. His thesis also passes over the clear teaching that the natural man is hostile to God, unable to submit to God's will, and cannot please God, nor embrace the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:7-8; 1 Cor 2:14). Scripture defines why the quickening of the Spirit must precede faith: without prior regeneration, hostility to God and incapacity remain constitutive of man. That is why John 6:44 and 65 say what they do in explicitly soteriological terms: "No one can come to me unless the Father grants him the ability." The granular logic is crucial. If believing is itself an act pleasing to God (and it is), and the flesh cannot please God (and it cannot), then the Spirit must first make the sinner alive to God. Any scheme that inverts the order leaves the unbeliever both responsible to believe and yet incapable until after he believes—a manifest contradiction.

Denying the continuity demanded by the analogia fide. Most seriously, his construction violates the principle of allowing scripture to interpret scripture. In John 3, Jesus expects Nicodemus, a teacher of the Old Testament scriptures, to recognize the new birth from Ezekiel 36:25-27. David prays for a clean heart and a steadfast spirit (Ps 51:10-12). Moses speaks of God’s future heart-circumcision (Deut 30:6). These promises are substantively manifest in regeneration even if their administration under the old covenant economy lacked Pentecostal fullness. The apostle John connects present faith to a completed begetting: "Everyone who believes has been born of God" (1 John 5:1, perfect tense). That grammar is decisive—the existence of faith reveals a prior rebirth; it never manufactures it. In order to preserve that testimony we must acknowledge a logical (not necessarily temporal) priority of regeneration to faith. By refusing that priority, Dave's thesis forces Galatians to contradict John, Ezekiel, and Romans, rather than allowing the later texts to clarify the earlier, thereby breaking the analogia fide.

Closing summary. My counter-argument can be stated in three strokes. (1) The passages that Dave cites concern the Spirit's sealing and covenantal adoption, not the regeneration that inaugurates the spiritual life; collapsing the latter into the former commits a category error. (2) Scripture's doctrine of moral inability makes faith impossible apart from a prior work of the Spirit; the fallen heart must be made alive before it can believe. (3) The whole canon, when allowed to interpret itself, teaches a regeneration that produces faith, an order preserved from Deuteronomy through John to the epistles. Regeneration is new life; repentance and faith are its first breaths. By inverting that order, his argument not only fails to prove its point but also fractures the unified testimony of scripture to sovereign, monergistic grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Could we say that all of that is the result of being born again?

Sure, both Faith and Love are gifts of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[Josheb]

Where are the questions?

Let's start with the most basic: Do you recognize that taking verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and applying them to the unsaved unregenerate non-believer is inappropriate?

 

[ReverendRV]

Let's start with the most basic: Do you recognize that taking verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and applying them to the unsaved unregenerate non-believer is inappropriate?

Yes...

How are you determining who a Verse is Written to? The Ten Commandments are Written to Some, and to All; on every heart...

 

[Carbon]

Yes...

How are you determining who a Verse is Written to? The Ten Commandments are Written to Some, and to All; on every heart...

the bible is written to believers.

 

[ReverendRV]

the bible is written to believers.

Then this makes @Josheb 's first question Moot

It was Written to us before we were Saved; Unbelievers...

 

[Carbon]

Then this makes @Josheb 's first question Moot

It was Written to us before we were Saved; Unbelievers...

Are you saying the Bible is written for unbelievers?

 

[John Bauer]

Addendum: @Dave refers to the Romans 8 paragraph only once, and only to restate his chronology. He never tackles the clause that matters for the moral inability argument.

Where he mentions it: In reply to my exegesis he writes, "In that same passage (Romans 8:8-11), it says that with the Spirit of God you have Christ … You receive the Spirit as a result of faith" (emphasis added). A few lines later he repeats the claim, tying the Spirit's "placing us into Christ" to a post-faith baptism. That is the sum total of his engagement with Romans 8:7-8.

As we can see, he skips verse 7 entirely. The flesh-governed disposition is hostile to God, does not submit to God’s law, and indeed cannot—a three-fold statement of moral inability that explains why those in the flesh cannot please God (v. 8). My thesis rests precisely on that logic: If pleasing God is impossible for the natural man (i.e., unregenerate), then faith, which pleases God, must follow regeneration. Dave never comments on verse 7 at all, so the inability premise went unanswered.

The in-flesh / in-Spirit antithesis: Paul does not present two stages in a believer's life, but rather two existential spheres: the flesh-governed disposition of the unregenerate ("in the flesh") versus the Spirit-governed disposition of the regenerate ("in the Spirit" (v. 9). By introducing a chronological gap—faith first, Spirit later—Dave turns this ontological either–or into a temporal before-and-after without showing where the text authorizes that move.

He quotes verses 8–11 to prove that indwelling comes after faith, but the paragraph itself gives no causal sequence. It says only that if the Spirit dwells in someone then he belongs to Christ; it never says the dwelling begins because he first believed. Galatians 3 and Ephesians 1, which Dave imports to supply that timing, address covenantal sealing, not the initial quickening that resolves the inability described in Romans 8. In short, he shifts the discussion from why the flesh cannot believe to when believers are sealed, leaving the original impossibility untouched.

Although he references Romans 8:5-11, he bypasses the critical data in verses 7-8 and never engages the moral inability argument drawn from it (and elsewhere). My earlier assessment therefore stands: the core problem—how an in-the-flesh person can exercise saving faith before the Spirit intervenes—has remained unaddressed.

 

[ReverendRV]

Are you saying the Bible is written for unbelievers?

Sure, why not?

To say otherwise will be saying the Bible is written only for the Unconditional Elect. Though we were Unbelievers before we were Saved, we were Unconditionally Elected for Salvation by God before we Believed. Adam's Lone Law of God was written for everyone who lives; Atheist and All. It's why we're Condemned Already...