What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?

[makesends]

John 8:47, which teaches that only those who belong to God listen and respond to his words; "You don't listen and respond, because you don't belong to God." In other words, the potential to believe is not universal. It exists only in those who belong to God and only by his powerful grace. The issue is belonging, not opportunity.

Exactly right.

I remember thinking the same 'reasoning believer' way; the whole notion is based on the assumption that God would not demand from anyone what is impossible for them to do.

("The command implies the ability to obey" is axiomatic to those insisting on self-determination. After all, "it would not be just for God to expect something from those who cannot produce it, and it would be illogical.")

 

[ReverendRV]

Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

Dave

Yes; we're Justified through Faith Alone, Sola Fide...

Yet we abide in Faith, Hope and Love; the greatest of these is Love is Faith Dead without Works, Hope and Love?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes; we're Justified through Faith Alone, Sola Fide...

Yet we abide in Faith, Hope and Love; the greatest of these is Love is Faith Dead without Works, Hope and Love?

Amen.

Paul called the corinthian church babes.

We are saved as a baby, needing not only to learn and grow. But to learn to trust our new father. Those born of God will not just walk on their own. Still living in sin.. If they do this, It is a claimed faith. And can not save

 

[Josheb]

Hi Josh

I hold Biblical consistency over theological consistency.

The posts prove otherwise.

I and a number of other posters have pointed out multiple exegetical errors in the posts here and other recent threads. It is not possible to have "Biblical consistency" with multiple exegetical errors.

You kept saying that I should test my own beliefs, when you never realized, that's exactly what I have been doing.

Again, the posts prove otherwise. I have yet to read a single correction of any of the mistakes made in exegesis. At the core of the problems is a propensity to apply verses written about the already saved, regenerate, believer to the unsaved, unregenerate, non-believer. This has happened in multiple threads and multiple posters have asked for an explicit example from scripture only to have that request treated with silence. The result is a supposed "Biblical consistency" in which the exegesis is woefully errant and the position without explicit precedent.

Go to Christianforum.net, check "Dave...". You'll see twenty years of posting history.

You mean like this one HERE? I've seen it. Do you understand how disingenuous it is to claim you're trying to understand something after asserting twenty years of posting history? How can anyone logically claim to have any knowledge of soteriology if they do not understand what "Penalty for sin is death" means?


It's just as bad there as it is here. I applaud any growth that has occurred over the last twenty years but the positions asserted are still incorrect. To add to the errors there is also an element of hubris in which you explicitly state an intent to challenge others..... with mistaken viewpoints!!! No one is challenged by error. That is an error in and of itself.

There are some big names in the reformed circles who make the same kind of mistakes with similar passages.

I do not care. If and when any of them join CCAM (or any other forum) I'll take up those matters with them.

The framework of this discussion comes from my understanding of Scripture, and, unless they are yet undiscovered, it's not from theologians who died hundreds of years ago. In short, your answers must come from you.

And I have answered the question asked in the title of this op and addressed various other matters. That answer is still sitting in the thread silently unattended. Many other inquiries from multiple respondents also sit unattended. Based on that evidence it does not look like there is much understanding of scripture or much authenticity testing your own beliefs.

I've explained my understanding in this matter many times, and in many ways.

All of it proves wanting when error and silence are facts in evidence.

I've called myself reformed.

Yes, but without further clarification that is meaningless. Arminius was Reformed. Arminius embraced what we now call total depravity, and, according to what I have read in the post, you do not. Arminius was Augustinian in his view of unsaved, unregenerate humanity, and you are not.


During the Lincoln Douglas debates, Lincoln asked Douglas how many legs a sheep would have if we called the sheep's tail a leg. Douglas' response was if we call the sheep's tail a leg then the sheep has five legs. Lincoln replied, no, just because you call a sheep's tail a leg does not make it a leg. Calling oneself Reformed does not make it so. The criteria for what constitute being Reformed must apply and Reformed soteriology starts with the premise sinful humanity is, individually and corporately unable to understand and respond to any call to salvation. Even Arminius agreed with that position (and I have personally posted Arminius' words on that subject to you to prove that fact).

You say faith precedes regeneration. If that were the only position asserted, then you might still have some legitimacy calling yourself Reformed but the moment you start arguing various faculties of the sinfully dead and enslaved listener can hear and respond through faith solely in/with his sinful flesh your views depart from Arminius' and you're no longer Reformed.

...I'm not hiding it....

You are. Multiple posters have asked multiple questions and received no answers.

Genesis 3:8-10
They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?" He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

John 3:18-21 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Folks refusing to answer questions while claiming to desire discussion are hiding (and being disingenuous). That problem goes all the way back to Eden. It happens even among the regenerate, even among the most noted among us.

Romans 7:14-20
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The claim for a discussion is undermined by the absence of answers to many very basic, foundational inquiries and comments.

Just answer the questions from your heart, from your own understanding of Scripture.

Dave

I did. Those answers are sitting silently unaddressed in multiple threads even after having asked they be revisited and answered.


What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith? Life.

What say you?

Calling oneself "Reformed independent" is self-contradictory. It's an oxymoron. So, what are you really?

Pelagian?
Semi-Pelagian?
Provisionist?
Traditionalist?

Definitely not Reformed Arminian, Wesleyan, Reformed Calvinist, Reformed Lutheran, or Augustinian. I've posted quotes from Arminius, and links to Provisionism and Traditionalism. You say you've read Reformed theologians and found they make mistakes. So, what are? "I do not yet know," would be a much better answer than "Reformed independent."

 

[Dave]

There is no such thing as a Spirit-less new birth. Regeneration is the sovereign work of the Spirit who indwells, gives life, renews the heart, and brings the dead to life. To say a person is born again but not indwelt by the Spirit is to posit a Spirit-less spiritual birth—which is incoherent (John 3:6-8).

Apply that to these.

3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

27-28 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

—which happens with regeneration. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1). Faith is the fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it.

Anybody currently believing has been born again, because the start of that same faith results in being born again. So I can rightly say that "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ (now) has been born of God" (1 John 5:1). It doesn't matter if that faith began ten minutes ago, or fifty years ago, when it began, Jesus responds by placing the Holy Spirit in us.

You ignored the point. Please address it: "The issue is belonging, not opportunity."

I didn't ignore the point. This is not insignificant historical context that you are not considering. It's huge and defines everything in John.

They were not born again.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (born again)" But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. .

This plays right off of your silver bullet, John 3:14-16, which said the same thing. And goes on to say that they hate the light because they practice evil. That's the cause. See John 8:28, and John 12:32-34. When He is lifted up, He will draw all people to himself. That sounds universal, right? We could spiritualize it and say God's desire is not His His eternal purpose. That would get rid of passages like these. But, maybe we shouldn't do that. Maybe, God, really did so love the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him would have eternal life. Those passages start to pile up quickly...

1 Tim. 2:1-6 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

This likewise fails to address the point. Please do so: No one has the ability to come to Christ unless the Father grants him the ability. (In other words, the ability to believe is not universal.) "The notion that mere exposure to opportunity can unlock a universal ability to believe (even if only a potential)," I said, "appears to be flatly rejected by the very scriptures that define the nature of unregenerate unbelief, moral inability, and the necessity of sovereign monergistic grace."

They were not born again. But setting that aside, we have OT believers of OT revelation that, once Jesus ascends, they have no stop gap to hold them until they are upgraded in revelation. Remember, before Jesus ascended, He first descended, and preached to the spirits in Prison. (Jesus holds the keys to Hades and death), and then He took Paradise, Abrahams bosom to the third heaven. That takes care of the OT believers already dead. There are still OT believers alive during that transition period who have no place to go, there is no more holding cell. All the OT believers dead have ascended with Jesus (Remember John 3, no one had yet ascended but He who descended.) But when Jesus ascends, He takes those OT believers (physically dead) with Him to the Father. Now they can be with Him. The OT believers still living, they must believe the Gospel. They are true believers of OT revelation. Consider that these are the Sheep that God has given to Jesus, that He would not lose one of them. They already believe OT revelation), they already WILL hear His voice, they will come to Him, they just need to hear the Gospel and believe and be upgraded so they can go directly to the Father when they die. They need to be born again, in Christ, and justified, all which is the result of the indwelling to come after Jesus ascends. To them, His sheep, the ones that the Father has given Him, they will believe and be given the Spirit at Pentecost. There were a few OT believers who missed the whole thing (Acts 19). Paul, shared the gospel (upgraded there revelation and faith in the same), and they received the Holy Spirit accompanied by signs, because they were OT believers too. All of those sheep will believe, all but Judas. And there are other sheep, not of this fold (Gentiles), they will hear my voice, etc.

Passages to reference. John 10:1-16, 17:2-26

What subject is Paul discussing in this passage? Regeneration? Or the full experiential entrance into the new covenant economy, which includes sanctification? Since it's the latter, as you noticed ("they are being perfected"), then it doesn't support the point you're trying to argue.

It doesn't matter, the whole chapter speaks of what people here are claiming cannot happen. The context is works verses faith, but the faith side has valuable insight as to what that faith gives us. So Paul is teaching what a faith does for us, which is extremely relevant.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ (indwelling vs 2) have put on Christ.

2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The result of that baptism/indwelling

2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

It's right there, over and over. No need to "see" things into scripture. John 3:3

Regeneration is the Spirit’s secret, efficacious, quickening work. Indwelling is the Spirit’s abiding, empowering, manifest presence in the believer. The latter presupposes the former. "He saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Regeneration is life imparted; renewal is nature renovated (cf. Rom 12:2). so that the sinner not only lives (regeneration) but also believes, loves, and obeys (renewal). The one who believes (1 John 5:1), loves (4:7), and obeys (2:29) has been born of God (i.e., the perfect passive indicative γεγέννηται is used in all three).

You're claiming that regeneration can only happen with the indwelling of the Spirit. I won't go that far, because the OT believers didn't have the indwelling, yet they believed. But I will claim, as you do, that being born again can only happen with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Nobody in the OT was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Think about that for a minute. That's not something that can be glossed over easily. This is deep in Scripture. And they believed.

Faith is the context, not the cause. It is through faith, not because of faith. Regeneration imparts new life so the person can exercise faith and experience the powerful and manifest presence of the Spirit with an eschatological hope.

Through faith can mean two things. Either it's the cause, or it's the sanctification process, thus, through faith. As Paul Put is, being perfected by the Spirit.

And faith is the cause of being born again. So you have two options. Regeneration and born again are not synonymous. That somehow, whether it be the Holy spirit being upon a believers as He was in the OT, or the Word of God itself, or the flesh. OT believers believed as a result of one of those three. If there is another option, I don't' see it.

And you didn't answer it.

I did answer it, I simply allowed for all three possibilities listed above.

Lets get to mans state, for a minute. Keeping in mind again, that before John records the cross, none of the believers were born again, because none of them were indwelt. Those who can see will be blinded. Why, because of sin.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

It's the same reason Jesus spoke to them in parables (Matthew 13:13). It's judgment, a judicial blindness. There is accountability that comes with hearing the Gospel. That why faith come by hearing the Word of God. If you know the word of God, and continue in sin, there is accountability for that.

John 8:30-32 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Jesus' purpose was to bear witness to the truth. To reveal truth. He is the light, His Word is the light. The Holy Spirit is light. His Word is a lamp to my feet. This is what is rejected, by man and brings judgment, blindness. To continue in sin after the light reveals itself is death. Even then , the blindness is only partial. And it was God's plan to graft in the Gentiles.

Also see Acts 28:23-28,