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What did John Wesley hold that Calvinist disagree with?

God does not force anyone to come or to leave from His love and gift of eternal life.
A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?


Everyone has freewill and chooses accordingly
Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.
 
Could one of the mods please remove the strike-through in Post #2? Thank you
 
Could one of the mods please remove the strike-through in Post #2? Thank you
I will see if I can do it through the edit feature. I don't remember how John did it before. Just remember to check before you post to make the strike through didn't post. If it did, immediately edit before edit time expires. That is all I know to say about why it is there.

Done! Successful!
 
Last edited:
Just remember to check before you post to make the strike through didn't post.
I will check and verify there are no strike-throughs when I post, but the post was up for two days before the strike-through occurred. Posts #3 and #4 quote Post #2 without the strike-through, proving the strike-through did not exist for at least two hours after I posted the op-reply. This is the second time this has happened.

Just saying
 
I will check and verify there are no strike-throughs when I post, but the post was up for two days before the strike-through occurred. Posts #3 and #4 quote Post #2 without the strike-through, proving the strike-through did not exist for at least two hours after I posted the op-reply. This is the second time this has happened.

Just saying
Truthfully, I don't know. When it happened awhile back, I remember Joh saying it was something you were doing but I don't remember what that was. The only way I can reason through it, being not very tech savvy, is that if it was on your end, it would be the strike through accidently being hit or doing it on its own. My computer has been known to, on occasion, decide to do something I never asked it to and did not want.

So, my suggestion was based Soley on my limitations. :)
 
I was looking at the Adventist history and was surprised at the influence that John Wesley had, and am puzzled why Calvinism are so vehemently opposed to his views. I have seen the strong resistance, especially in the struggle to label the church back in the 1950's, and keep them as being accepted as Christian because they were from the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition.

So what did John Wesley believe that Calvinist clash with, if I may ask. What causes such angst and strong reaction with fellow Christians?
I often say that Christians from the Past, may be thought of as Calvinists today; because they were more conservative than non Calvinists are now...
 
A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
Romans 1 would seem to disagree.
Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.
They always choose sinfully. There is choice, just not libertarian free will. It is their fault.
 
A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
Romans 1 would seem to disagree.
Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.
They always choose sinfully. There is choice, just not libertarian free will. It is their fault.
A few thoughts:

  1. Most of the Bible pertains to people who did know about God, consciously knew about Him, and made all their choices consciously knowing they knew. They simply did not do so conscientiously.
  2. Romans 1 is one of the few passages in the Bible that can be directly understood to apply specifically about all humans, not just Jews and/or Christians.
  3. Even if those not hearing the gospel did choose good that good choice and its effects would still have no salvific merit because it would be a choice and/or an act of the sinful flesh, not a choice/act of never-have-sinned sinless flesh.
  4. Arminian synergies affirm the previous point. The non-Arminian synergies deny it. In terms of goodness, there is a belief all good choices/acts are the same in the Pelagian end of synergism. They are not.


Just saying





No strike-throughs at the time of posting
.
 
Re: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
Romans 1 would seem to disagree.
O.K. ... assuming you are correct, how does a person in the last 2000 years get to go to heaven if he never heard of Christ?

Aside: I grant Romans 1 says they are without excuse, but Romans 1 does not lay out an alternate method to get to heaven and other parts of the bible basically state you're going to hell if you don't know Jesus. For example, John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

They always choose sinfully. There is choice, just not libertarian free will. It is their fault.
Agreed
 
Re: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
It is not a question of whether or not, (as your construction may be taken to assume), they should have had a chance to do this or that. It is a question of who, or rather, what, they are. If they are not of the elect, they will always choose sinfully, corruptly, and at enmity with God. That is what they are —enemies with God— and they will always act accordingly. They had a choice.

Further, it is not because they never heard of Christ that anyone is destined to hell.
O.K. ... assuming you are correct, how does a person in the last 2000 years get to go to heaven if he never heard of Christ?
Does your question assume that anyone who has not heard of Christ "gets to" go to heaven, or should be able to "get to" go to heaven?

But the question also reminds me of someone saying, "Why am I here? Why wasn't I born into a Muslim upbringing, and all that implies?" To me, the question is silly. If Billy from Cedar Rapics had been born in Arabia, he would not be the same person he is as Billy.

It's not like speculating whether I had chosen a different wife what would things have been like. This is God's choice.
Aside: I grant Romans 1 says they are without excuse, but Romans 1 does not lay out an alternate method to get to heaven and other parts of the bible basically state you're going to hell if you don't know Jesus. For example, John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
John 3:18 "The [one] believing is not judged, but the [one] not believing has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Why the extra words?

Romans 1 does not lay out an alternate method to get to heaven because there are no alternate methods. I'm not sure what you're asking here.

I will grant that it sounds cold to someone who thinks that those who are "clay for a lesser use" thinks it should be the choice of the clay to be as to its destiny, but the clay continually seals its own fate unless God chose it for a better use. And it does so because of what it is, just as God intended from the beginning. We don't operate on his level, hard as we try.
 
Re: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
It is not a question of whether or not, (as your construction may be taken to assume), they should have had a chance to do this or that. It is a question of who, or rather, what, they are. If they are not of the elect, they will always choose sinfully, corruptly, and at enmity with God. That is what they are —enemies with God— and they will always act accordingly. They had a choice.
Seems you are just using a different filter to determine if one is destined for hell. I agree that only the elect (filter1) go to heaven and all the elect have heard of Christ (filter2). Or if you have not heard of Christ (filter2) then you are not among the elect (filter1) and you are going to hell. As I stated, "A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell".
You are saved by faith and faith cometh by hearing. Those that don't hear of Christ go to hell, they are not among the elect.

Further, it is not because they never heard of Christ that anyone is destined to hell.
We're splitting hairs. The instrument cause of salvation is faith and faith cometh by hearing. I didn't go into deeper waters. I just stated that if one dies and has not heard of Christ they're going to hell. I didn't get into the efficient cause, mediatorial cause, yada, yada, giggle

I think we have a miscommunication ... so I won't address the rest of your reply.
 
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