TRUE OR NO?

[Josheb]

Is this another round of gotcha? I'm in no mood for it.

You never had to participate, but you did, with what goal? To win at another game of Gotcha? It seems to be your favorite past time.

Relevance to whether or not the Bonhoeffer statement is true or not?

 

[prism]

Relevance to whether or not the Bonhoeffer statement is true or not?

I don't agree with Bonhoeffer, otherwise let's chuck the teaching of imputation.

Romans 4:5 ESV
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

 

[Josheb]

I don't agree with Bonhoeffer, otherwise let's chuck the teaching of imputation.

Romans 4:5 ESV
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

????? Do you think Bonhoeffer believed something other than imputation of righteousness? The quote is specifically about justification. There's no mention of imputing righteousness (or not doing so). The justification in Romans 4:5 is by God, not faith. I addressed this earlier: there as multiple ways scripture states the "by" of justification (see Post #35). How do you see the op's quote contradicting any of this?

 

[prism]

????? Do you think Bonhoeffer believed something other than imputation of righteousness? The quote is specifically about justification. There's no mention of imputing righteousness (or not doing so). The justification in Romans 4:5 is by God, not faith. I addressed this earlier: there as multiple ways scripture states the "by" of justification (see Post #35). How do you see the op's quote contradicting any of this?

Here is what Bonhoeffer said, "The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ"- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
This is similar to Jesus' words...
Luke 14:26-27 ESV
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [27] Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

Bonhoeffer uses the term grace alone, and then adds works of 'leaving all to follow Christ'. Jesus was referring to discipleship not justification. In a sense, Bonhoeffer was taking a Roman Catholic view of justification where we are justified after all is said and done.
Imputed righteousness and justification go hand in hand. Imputed righteousness is the means by which a believer is justified by faith; it is the belief that God "counts" or "reckons" Christ's perfect righteousness and obedience to a believer as if it were their own, through their faith in Him.
Again:
Romans 5:19 ESV
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Bonhoeffer, obviously, is speaking of discipleship, not justification (even though he mentions 'justified by grace alone').He is mixing Law and Gospel, something C.F.W. Walther (also a Lutheran) said was a 'no-no'.

 

[Josheb]

Here is what Bonhoeffer said, "The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ"- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
This is similar to Jesus' words...
Luke 14:26-27 ESV
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [27] Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

Bonhoeffer uses the term grace alone, and then adds works of 'leaving all to follow Christ'. Jesus was referring to discipleship not justification. In a sense, Bonhoeffer was taking a Roman Catholic view of justification where we are justified after all is said and done.
Imputed righteousness and justification go hand in hand. Imputed righteousness is the means by which a believer is justified by faith; it is the belief that God "counts" or "reckons" Christ's perfect righteousness and obedience to a believer as if it were their own, through their faith in Him.
Again:
Romans 5:19 ESV
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Bonhoeffer, obviously, is speaking of discipleship, not justification (even though he mentions 'justified by grace alone').He is mixing Law and Gospel, something C.F.W. Walther (also a Lutheran) said was a 'no-no'.

How does that answer the specific questions I asked?

1. Do you think Bonhoeffer believed something other than imputation of righteousness?
2. How does the quote contradict the imputation of righteousness (when it makes no mention of righteousness)?

I think a lot is (unnecessarily and perhaps inappropriately) being put on Bonhoeffer that is not supported by the op's quote (and I wonder why), and perhaps that is what is getting in the way of your lack of surety regarding whether the quote is true or not. Several times you've quoted scripture about righteousness but there's no mention of righteousness in the quote. Is righteousness and justification being conflated because of the theological definition that makes justification a declaration of imputed righteousness? If so, that brings us back to question 1.

I read "The Cost of Discipleship" to affirm the doctrine of imputed righteousness BUT Bonhoeffer held that declaration could not be made apart from a (visibly) transformed life. To make a claim of the declared imputation applying to an individual without any visible evidence is cheap grace. Yes, Bonhoeffer was a huge advocate for discipleship, but he did not think discipleship synonymous with justification. I, therefore, might add a third inquiry.

1. Do you think Bonhoeffer believed something other than imputation of righteousness?
2. How does the quote contradict the imputation of righteousness (when it makes no mention of righteousness)?
3. Can you provide a second quote by Bonhoeffer proving he was speaking only of discipleship and not justification (that he somehow incorrectly mixed up the two)?

.

 

[Josheb]

I don't agree with Bonhoeffer, otherwise let's chuck the teaching of imputation.

How about this (it's not Bonhoeffer): "Justified by faith is he who, excluded from the righteousness of works, grasps the righteousness of Christ through faith, and clothed in it, appears in God's sight not as a sinner but as a righteous man."

Does that work for you?

 

[Paul]

The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Yes and no.

If Rahab, the prostitute, had not acted on her faith and hid the spies she and her family would have been killed with the others in her city.

And according to her testimony it wasn't just her who believed.

Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

Hebrews 11 -By Faith

If the thief on the cross had not asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His kingdom he would have perished that very day. But no work was performed by him to have his sins forgiven. It was grace through faith. "Mercy"

 

[prism]

Yes and no.

If Rahab, the prostitute, had not acted on her faith and hid the spies she and her family would have been killed with the others in her city.

And according to her testimony it wasn't just her who believed.

Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

Hebrews 11 -By Faith

If the thief on the cross had not asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His kingdom he would have perished that very day. But no work was performed by him to have his sins forgiven. It was grace through faith. "Mercy"

Yes, I'm not sure where Dietrich Bonhoeffer was coming from since he was a Lutheran, and Luther was all about faith alone. (but generally not today's Lutherans)