Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem

[EarlyActs]

Interesting question … can you build a 5th temple (building) while the 4th temple (Christ) is still standing?

It can be built as a deception, of course. It would break everything Hebrews is trying to say. And other passages, but notice the intended name of it.

 

[EarlyActs]

The "new posts" list said there was new posts here but twice this morning, nothing new is there (another thread did the same thing).

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for taking the time to do the research.
Interesting thought. I never heard that some believe the Dome of the Rock was the temple mentioned in 2 Thes 2:4.
Currently I don't believe that. But as I said, interesting thought.
My question would be....who is the restrainer and when was the restrainer taken out of the way so that the lawless could be revealed?
What was the strong delusion God sent?
I'll address.... " 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion/apostasy comes first, "....in the response below.
APOSTASY...
the Geneva Bible of 1587 put it this way....
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departingCOLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)[/COLOR]first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

So, apostasy...just what does the word mean?
The meaning of the word refers to ... "to stand away" or "to depart." I copied that directly from Strongs 646. apostasia
The question is....does depart mean a spiritual departure or a physical spatial departure? Or can it refer to BOTH?

No, that is not the question. . .apostasy is not a new word, it's been around forever, and its correct meaning has been known forever.
Apostasy is not a "physical departure," it is a departure from principles or faith, a departure from what one had formerly professed.

Concerning a physical departure the word apostasia is derived from the word aphistémi. Acts 12:10 uses this word as follows
"and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him." This departure wasn't a spiritual departure but rather a physical departure.
Considering the make up of the word can refer to both a spiritual or physical departure we need to look at the subject or text of 2 Thes 2.
But first, will you agree the word can refer to a spiritual departure or a physical spatial departure.
2 Thes 2 starts off by speaking of the "gathering"
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,...which I see as the rapture of the church presented in 1 Thes 4.....knowing that it's not hard to see the "departure" in 2 Thes 3 is a reference to the pre-trib rapture when the christians are removed....paving the way for the rebuilding of the temple and the antichrist setting up the "peace plan"

 

[Hobie]

Been lots of theories on if or when this will happen.
The main discussion about it is from scripture that says the beast will have it's image there and people will worship the beast.
You even hear there are some Christians groups that contribute (money or other support) to assure this temple is built.

So here's my question about the above .....
WHY would any Christian have the desire to contribute to a temple building that will specifically promote the false worship of a false god??????

Why would we need it when we have one greater than the Temple, that's why the curtain was torn and it destroyed..

 

[CrowCross]

Why would we need it when we have one greater than the Temple, that's why the curtain was torn and it destroyed..

Even though there will be a 3rd temple....I don't think God will recognize it and the sacrifices.

 

[EarlyActs]

Why would we need it when we have one greater than the Temple, that's why the curtain was torn and it destroyed..

Yes, at best, it would be a thing that would distract and delude people.

 

[prism]

Yes, at best, it would be a thing that would distract and delude people.

Why would it delude Christians?
(Christians are people too.)

 

[Josheb]

Why would it delude Christians?
(Christians are people too.)

If I may....

Because even Christian people can and often do believe whatever their teachers teach. Scripture is filled with examples of God's people led astray by misguided leaders and so too is Church history. Are you familiar with Robert Fitzpatrick? He sold everything he had because he believed a very popular Christian preacher who predicted Jesus' return. Mr. Fitzpatrick put his money where his faith was. He took the money from his sales and purchased billboards announcing the return of Christ, urging people to repent and follow Jesus. On this very day there are hundreds of thousands of faith-filled, faithful, devout, earnest, genuine Christians who subscribe to a theology despite the fact the teachers of that theology have not had a single correct prediction since the inception of that theology (almost two hundred years). 100% fail rate.

That's why.





@EarlyActs, please feel free to correct me if I haven't gotten your meaning correct.
.

 

[Josheb]

Even though there will be a 3rd temple....I don't think God will recognize it and the sacrifices.

How, exactly, would a temple God doesn't recognize be a temple? How would a temple not recognized by God be a temple of God? How would a temple not recognized by God be a temple of God about which He'd prophecy?


I, God, prophesy there will be a temple built that I do not recognize as a temple to Me.


Got scripture stating that?

 

[Josheb]

............I don't think God will recognize it and the sacrifices.

Have you ever thought about the logically necessary consequences if that happens to occur?

Millions of animals slaughtered every year that God won't recognize...... and hundreds of thousands of Christians looking forward to that waste; eagerly expecting it a sign of Christ's return.



I, God, prophesy there will be a day in the far, far distant future when a portion of My house will look forward to the wasteful slaughter of my creatures by the millions.


Got scripture for that?

 

[EarlyActs]

Why would it delude Christians?
(Christians are people too.)

A return to a practicing temple on earth , in spite of what Hebrews, Eph 2-3, Jn 2, 4 say is a delusion.

‘A time is coming and NOW IS when the true worshippers…’

Actually Paul laments that the temple keeps seeking the hope of Israel by operating all the temple practices in his time instead of realizing the resurrection was the fulfilled enthronement of David’s vision, Acts 2:30,31

 

[CrowCross]

How, exactly, would a temple God doesn't recognize be a temple? How would a temple not recognized by God be a temple of God? How would a temple not recognized by God be a temple of God about which He'd prophecy?

Who says God is going to recognize the temple? Accept the sacrifices considering the final sacrifice was Jesus?

From what I understand the Jews don't exactly accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior...The Jews are currently calling for a temple. I don't even think you could deny that. They even have the red heifers. In other words they plan on building a temple. FACT.
Now, when they build their temple what do you think they plan to do with it?

 

[Arial]

Who says God is going to recognize the temple? Accept the sacrifices considering the final sacrifice was Jesus?

From what I understand the Jews don't exactly accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior...The Jews are currently calling for a temple. I don't even think you could deny that. They even have the red heifers. In other words they plan on building a temple. FACT.
Now, when they build their temple what do you think they plan to do with it?

So what if they are trying to build a temple? What does that have to do with anything? Does Scripture say one will be built? No Jew will be saved who is offering animal sacrifices and the "hero's" of pre-mil/dis claim that is going to be going on during the millennial reign of Christ in order that all Jew will be saved through that "backward looking" OT sacrificial system. It is premil/dis who claim that not only will God accept the temple but Jesus will be reigning as high priest and king in it. I have asked you a couple of times to address a direct quote from MacArthur that says just that, and you never have.

So if you have your own version of pre-mil/dis you need to state it and state it clearly. Otherwise you are presenting something you never explain while those contending against your words are naturally presuming when you claim to be premil/dis (the rapture and all) that you actually are premil/dis. That is why you have to argue so much and can never understand what anyone says, and repeat yourself over and over.

Are you just looking at signs to figure out when you get taken out of here and don't really have a fully developed, consistent Scripture based, eschatological doctrine?

 

[CrowCross]

Have you ever thought about the logically necessary consequences if that happens to occur?

PETA will be {edit}

Millions of animals slaughtered every year that God won't recognize

Millions? Like, how many millions? 10? 40 million? How many?
Last year there were approximately 34.5 million cattle were slaughtered in the United States. Of course we ate them.
But, considering at the last count there are about 900,000 Orthodox and Zionist Jews in Israel I believe your "millions" is a bit high and you need a new argument.

...... and hundreds of thousands of Christians looking forward to that waste; eagerly expecting it a sign of Christ's return.

Nah....The bible tells us Jesus returns twice....the first time in the clouds the way He left (Acts 1) then the second time 7 years later depicted on a White Horse (Rev 19).
.....Now, I did get a chuckle at the way you phrased it..."Christians looking forward to that waste"...waste? You simply threw that word in there as if waiting on the biblical rapture of the church (1 Thes 4) was a bad thing.
In fact 2 Timothy 4:8 tells us....Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

{Edit}

}I, God, prophesy there will be a day in the far, far distant future when a portion of My house will look forward to the wasteful slaughter of my creatures by the millions.
Got scripture for that?

Of course not. Why would your skewed view be in prophetic scripture?

 

[Josheb]

Who says God is going to recognize the temple? Accept the sacrifices considering the final sacrifice was Jesus?

From what I understand the Jews don't exactly accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior...The Jews are currently calling for a temple. I don't even think you could deny that. They even have the red heifers. In other words they plan on building a temple. FACT.
Now, when they build their temple what do you think they plan to do with it?

Nice dodge (again). I asked you if you'd considered the logically necessary consequences of that position. It's clear you have not.

Millions? Like, how many millions? 10? 40 million? How many?

Think it through. Daily sacrifices of various sorts (as prescribed by the Law) performed for some 7+ million Jews (more if Jews outside of Israel are counted).

Last year there were approximately 34.5 million cattle were slaughtered in the United States. Of course we ate them.

Different category. God has never stopped humans from eating cattle.

But, considering at the last count there are about 900,000 Orthodox and Zionist Jews in Israel I believe your "millions" is a bit high and you need a new argument.

Meh. I'm happy to adjust the numbers. That won't change the fact modern futurism inherently teaches millions of God's creatures won't be sacrificed for food; they'll be slaughtered - according to you - in a temple God does not recognize, by a priesthood God does not recognize, for propitiations God does not recognize.

In other words, you appear to have enough insight to recognize the emptiness of such a temple, such a priesthood, such sacrificial slaughter...... but not enough insight to consider the prospect maybe that's NOT what God intended at all. Why would God want Jews to replicate anything He will not recognize. In other words, your 100% correct appraisal of the situation is reason to reject the position! If a temple is built in the future, then it will not be something recognized by God. It won't be a function of OT prophecy. There are more exegetically sound alternatives than the one provided by modern futurism.

Nah....The bible tells us Jesus returns twice....the first time in the clouds the way He left (Acts 1) then the second time 7 years later depicted on a White Horse (Rev 19).
.....Now, I did get a chuckle at the way you phrased it..."Christians looking forward to that waste"...waste? You simply threw that word in there as if waiting on the biblical rapture of the church (1 Thes 4) was a bad thing.
In fact 2 Timothy 4:8 tells us....Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

I'm worried for you Josheb. I don't think you'll be getting that crown. In fact I see you as trying to prevent me from getting that crown.

Of course not. Why would your skewed view be in prophetic scripture?

Digression. Ignored accordingly. Will you please keep your posts on topic? The topic is the third temple in Jerusalem. Nothing else, nothing more.

 

[CrowCross]

So what if they are trying to build a temple? What does that have to do with anything? Does Scripture say one will be built?

Considering there currently isn't a temple....and considering scripture speaks of a temple in the future...I would say YES to your question. "Does Scripture say one will be built?"

No Jew will be saved who is offering animal sacrifices and the "hero's" of pre-mil/dis claim that is going to be going on during the millennial reign of Christ in order that all Jew will be saved through that "backward looking" OT sacrificial system. It is premil/dis who claim that not only will God accept the temple but Jesus will be reigning as high priest and king in it. I have asked you a couple of times to address a direct quote from MacArthur that says just that, and you never have.

I agree, no Jew will be saved by sacrificing animals. Then again that won't last long as the anti-christ ends it when he sets up shop in the temple calling himself God.
As to the rest of your paragraph???? Quite strange and sound somewhat ad-hoc.

So if you have your own version of pre-mil/dis you need to state it and state it clearly. Otherwise you are presenting something you never explain while those contending against your words are naturally presuming when you claim to be premil/dis (the rapture and all) that you actually are premil/dis. That is why you have to argue so much and can never understand what anyone says, and repeat yourself over and over.

I've stated it numerous times...We are currently in the Matt 24 birth pangs. I don't know how long that will last or how deep into it we will go.
Then the 1 Thes 4:16 resurrection/rapture event happens. The antichrist is revealed. Some sort of peace treaty signed which opens the way to build a temple.
Eventually (as much happens such as Rev 8) those that remain on earth and survive till Rev 13 will see the completion of the beast system that is being built right now at this moment. (assuming the time line of Rev is linear.) At the end of the 7 years Jesus returns to earth on the depicted white horse. The physical seconds coming. Would you like more explanation or will you continue with your fallacy?

Are you just looking at signs to figure out when you get taken out of here and don't really have a fully developed, consistent Scripture based, eschatological doctrine?

Not quite sure what you're getting at....as you sound some what condescending...Eschatological view in the bible tells us Christians are not destined for the wrath of the tribe coming on the world. Rev 3:10.

Am I looking for signs? Of course. If you looked you'd see them all around you. Thing is you're some what obstinate and only hear what your elders have taught you and have never really looked for yourself. This is obvious as you stumble around the in the clouds the way Jesus left and the return on the white horse dilemma you find yourself in.

 

[CrowCross]

Nice dodge (again). I asked you if you'd considered the logically necessary consequences of that position. It's clear you have not.

LOL....no, I considered your scenario....and found it lacking.

Think it through. Daily sacrifices of various sorts (as prescribed by the Law) performed for some 7+ million Jews (more if Jews outside of Israel are counted).

Once again you present speculation as "fact". Do you think all Jews believe in the sacrificial system? I don't.

Different category. God has never stopped humans from eating cattle.

Meh. I'm happy to adjust the numbers. That won't change the fact modern futurism inherently teaches millions of God's creatures won't be sacrificed for food; they'll be slaughtered - according to you - in a temple God does not recognize, by a priesthood God does not recognize, for propitiations God does not recognize.

Then adjust the numbers.

In other words, you appear to have enough insight to recognize the emptiness of such a temple, such a priesthood, such sacrificial slaughter...... but not enough insight to consider the prospect maybe that's NOT what God intended at all. Why would God want Jews to replicate anything He will not recognize. In other words, your 100% correct appraisal of the situation is reason to reject the position! If a temple is built in the future, then it will not be something recognized by God. It won't be a function of OT prophecy. There are more exegetically sound alternatives than the one provided by modern futurism.

I agree. God won't recognize the temple...why are you stuck on that?

Digression. Ignored accordingly. Will you please keep your posts on topic? The topic is the third temple in Jerusalem. Nothing else, nothing more.

My post has been on topic. You're the one with the made up numbers.

 

[Josheb]

LOL....no, I considered your scenario....and found it lacking.

No evidence of that anywhere in this entire thread.

Once again you present speculation as "fact".

Nope. That's not a speculation on my part. It is the teaching of Premillennial Dispensationalism. That theology teaches there will be a return of the Levitical priesthood, and a reinstitution of the animal sacrifices in a third temple. That is the teaching of DPism, not my personal opinion. If that teaching is followed through to its logically necessary outcomes, then the conclusion is, as you have stated, a temple God does not recognize. You cannot discard my agreement as an opinion without discrediting your own position! If we follow through with the premise the third temple will not be recognized by God, then neither will the priesthood or the sacrifices. If there is no divine recognition of the temple, the priesthood serving in it, or the ritual animal sacrifices performed in that temple.....

then why teach God wants those things to happen?


And you most definitely not posted a single word on that in this thread.

LOL....no, I considered your scenario....and found it lacking.

There is no evidence to that effect in these posts and when the occasion to do so arose obfuscation ensued. You could have reasoned through your own statement all the way through the sacrifices to the teaching but did not.

I agree. God won't recognize the temple...why are you stuck on that?

I am not "stuck." It is simply one of many reasons to reject modern futurism. It is one of the many reasons to reject the eschatology that those holding to that eschatology do not seem to recognize.

Then adjust the numbers.

Okay. Two male lambs were sacrificed daily. Added to those two burnt offerings there would have been the grain offerings, the sin offering, the trespass offering, and various types of peace offerings as occasion arose. On top of that there were individual sacrifices any Jew might bring to the temple on any given day for a number of reasons (atonements, vows, etc.). Let's say just 1% of the Jews out of a population of 4 million Jews brought sacrifices on a daily basis. That's 40,000 animals sacrificed daily. Multiply that by 365 and the total is over 14 million animals sacrificed. Today's population is twice that of the first century. On top of this number there are animal sacrifices associated with specific events and holy days. According to GotQuestions, for example, about 142,000 animals would have been sacrificed during the two-week period of the census. At Passover every Jewish household killed a lamb. Both those numbers can be added to the Levitical requirements already listed.

Millions? Like, how many millions? 10? 40 million? How many?

Let's stick with 14 million for now.

The point is that modern futurism's expectation and requirement Israel's return to Christ necessary entails millions of animal sacrifices that will not be recognized by God is dubious at best, and utterly irrational and profoundly unscriptural at worst. It begs the question why God would want such worthless and destructive practice as a means of bringing the Jews to Christ.

It is all predicated on the assertion another temple will be built. No temple, then no priests and no sacrifices. If there's a temple then it's not sitting empty. Priests and animal sacrifices accompany the temple. No other Christian eschatology holds this view. Only the eschatology invented in the 19th century holds to the position God wants something He will not recognize and use it to bring the Jews to salvation in Christ.

It's an odd belief.

 

[CrowCross]

No evidence of that anywhere in this entire thread.

Nope. That's not a speculation on my part. It is the teaching of Premillennial Dispensationalism. That theology teaches there will be a return of the Levitical priesthood, and a reinstitution of the animal sacrifices in a third temple.

This will happen...thing is you're being deceitful when you present the Premillennial Dispensationalist as saying this form of "salvation" will be accepted by God. You have been told NUMEROUS time Christ was the final sacrifice. So, why do you continue with your false misrepresentation?

That is the teaching of DPism, not my personal opinion. If that teaching is followed through to its logically necessary outcomes, then the conclusion is, as you have stated, a temple God does not recognize. You cannot discard my agreement as an opinion without discrediting your own position! If we follow through with the premise the third temple will not be recognized by God, then neither will the priesthood or the sacrifices. If there is no divine recognition of the temple, the priesthood serving in it, or the ritual animal sacrifices performed in that temple.....

As I have said...over and over and over again....God won't recognize it. The Jews of that time will think God does and perform the sacrifices in the rebuilt 3rd temple.

then why teach God wants those things to happen?

God wants the Jews to come to Christ as the messiah. In their continued rebellion they build the temple...just as the bible mentions.
It's part of Gods plan. Do I understand it completely??? No. BUT, the bible mentions the temple and the antichrist entering into it and claims to be God. Perhaps at that time some of the Jews have an ah-ha moment and flee to Petra.

And you most definitely not posted a single word on that in this thread.

What thread? Then again if I did you would sy I'm off topic and try to have me banned.

There is no evidence to that effect in these posts and when the occasion to do so arose obfuscation ensued. You could have reasoned through your own statement all the way through the sacrifices to the teaching but did not.

I am not "stuck." It is simply one of many reasons to reject modern futurism. It is one of the many reasons to reject the eschatology that those holding to that eschatology do not seem to recognize.

Modern "futurism" as you put it....presents many things written in Revelation that haven't happened yet.
If you were a Jew living in the times of Christ you would reject Isaiah 53 and other prophetic verses claiming them to be modern futurism of those days.

Okay. Two male lambs were sacrificed daily. Added to those two burnt offerings there would have been the grain offerings, the sin offering, the trespass offering, and various types of peace offerings as occasion arose. On top of that there were individual sacrifices any Jew might bring to the temple on any given day for a number of reasons (atonements, vows, etc.). Let's say just 1% of the Jews out of a population of 4 million Jews brought sacrifices on a daily basis. That's 40,000 animals sacrificed daily. Multiply that by 365 and the total is over 14 million animals sacrificed. Today's population is twice that of the first century. On top of this number there are animal sacrifices associated with specific events and holy days. According to GotQuestions, for example, about 142,000 animals would have been sacrificed during the two-week period of the census. At Passover every Jewish household killed a lamb. Both those numbers can be added to the Levitical requirements already listed.

Now you appear to be saying every day was like during the census. The Jews didn't bring sacrifices on a daily basis.
I'm thinking you should have thought through your failed scenario.

Let's stick with 14 million for now.

The point is that modern futurism's expectation and requirement Israel's return to Christ necessary entails millions of animal sacrifices that will not be recognized by God is dubious at best, and utterly irrational and profoundly unscriptural at worst. It begs the question why God would want such worthless and destructive practice as a means of bringing the Jews to Christ.

?????? if you red the OT you will see that at times the Jews made worthless destructive sacrifices to other gods.

With all due respect....your point is failing.

It is all predicated on the assertion another temple will be built. No temple, then no priests and no sacrifices. If there's a temple then it's not sitting empty. Priests and animal sacrifices accompany the temple. No other Christian eschatology holds this view. Only the eschatology invented in the 19th century holds to the position God wants something He will not recognize and use it to bring the Jews to salvation in Christ.

You forgot the two witnesses and the 144,000 who will also be used to bring the Jews to Christ. You need to leave your world of temple onlyism.

It's an odd belief.

It's bewildering how you a "Christian" call what is written in scripture as an odd belief.

 

[Josheb]

It's bewildering how you a "Christian" call what is written in scripture as an odd belief.

Dispensational Premillennialism is not what is written in scripture. It is an interpretation of scripture, not scripture. It is a very unique and very different interpretation of scripture and a very unique and different interpretation that proves difficult to discuss because its adherents will not discuss it honestly. Outsiders making the attempt must endure constant changes of topic, frequent digressions, derogatory personal commentary, and false equivalencies in which a theology is call scripture.

For now, all I am asking is that you discuss the exegetical and logically necessities of correctly perceiving a third temple would not be recognized by God. Can you do that?