State of the dead, the Soul.

[Hobie]

Some take a look at the various verses on the soul and confusion seems to reign, here is one that many look at but dont quite grasp.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most will agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and that really is the question at hand. The usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references actually define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT where it clearly states it.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man was not given a soul 'he became a living soul.' 'Soul' and 'spirit' are not the same thing. It is the unity of body and breath-of-life that constitute the soul. You are a soul; you do not have a soul. Many clergy gets this part wrong in most churches, and in doing so, the rest of what happens after we die gets distorted based off this first failing step.

The idea can be expressed as such:
Physical body (dust) + breath of life (spirit - ruwach) = living soul (a wholism of the two - nephesh)

The Hebrew word for soul is"nephesh". Nephesh was translated into many different English words for the KJV Bible (for instance; creature, beast, man, fish, thing, person or persons, etc) but an important thing one should plainly see is that none of the translations refer to it as being something that survives the death of the body nor does it mean that in the original Hebrew. It was used to describe the "wholism" of life - not a "dualism" as was latter taught by the Greeks (Plato to be precise) and is unfortunately with us still today.
The Hebrew word for spirit is "ruwach". This word means breath or air and these terms are used interchangeably. The Hebrew word 'ruwach' appears multiple times in the Bible, and in 117 times it is translated as wind or air, and 33 times as breath, and and 227 times as spirit. There is no indication that there is any memory, consciousness, ego, or character associated with it in any of the verses or that it is immortal. You can see in scripture it clearly shows that the soul can die and does die.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 & 20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

These verses show that the Physical body (dust) minus the breath of life (spirit) = death (the ceasing of the two). You can clearly see that the 'breath of life' to the spirit in scripture.

Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

So what is in the nostrils? Is it some immortal memory-retaining substance? No, it figuratively and literally it is the breath. As you can see, the breath of life and the spirit are one and the same and are used interchangeably. Does the spirit have thoughts or memory?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, the spirit (breath - ruwach) that returns to God at death is not mentioned as being immortal nor does it contain any memory or information of the individual or any conscience whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite has been seen; the dead dont know anything nor can they gain any further reward towards heaven. So what happens when you die, the Bible tells us.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Josheb]

Some take a look at the various verses on the soul and confusion seems to reign, here is one that many look at but dont quite grasp.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most will agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and that really is the question at hand. The usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references actually define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT where it clearly states it.............


So, the spirit (breath - ruwach) that returns to God at death is not mentioned as being immortal nor does it contain any memory or information of the individual or any conscience whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite has been seen; the dead dont know anything nor can they gain any further reward towards heaven. So what happens when you die, the Bible tells us.

I read scripture to teach a unified view of the human creature and not a dualist or tripartite view. The Genesis account described how the combination of God's life-giving breath combined with the dust God had formed created a living being. This indicates there is no being without either the breath of life or the physical form. As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any disembodied soul or disembodied spirit. The nature of the body may have changed, but there is always a body, some kind of form or mass that is visible, and in many cases touchable. To remove one part from the whole is to have the entirety of the creature cease to exist.

 

[Josheb]

....the dead dont know anything....

How is this statement reconciled with the many examples in scripture (literal and parable) where dead people are said to communicate with others. How is this reconciled with the premise of every dead person standing before God for judgment or sentencing (are we to think they have no knowledge or awareness of that event)?

Do you believe "the dead know nothing" is applicable to everyone who dies, or only those who die dead apart from Christ?

 

[Hobie]

How is this statement reconciled with the many examples in scripture (literal and parable) where dead people are said to communicate with others. How is this reconciled with the premise of every dead person standing before God for judgment or sentencing (are we to think they have no knowledge or awareness of that event)?

Do you believe "the dead know nothing" is applicable to everyone who dies, or only those who die dead apart from Christ?

Dust to dust, means back to the basic elements, so whether good or bad, they go to the grave with no thoughts, asleep till Christ wakes them at the resurrection, one of the just and the second one for the unjust...

 

[Wordsmith]

As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any disembodied soul or disembodied spirit.

I disagree!

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls were obviously absent their body because on earth they were slain for the Word of God.

The nature of the body may have changed, but there is always a body, some kind of form or mass that is visible, and in many cases touchable.

Form yes mass not necessarily mass as we know it in the earthly realm.. Jesus said:


Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus tells us a spirit does not have the earthly mass of flesh and bone. Yet in Revelation 6 those souls could speak and wear heavenly robes which do not necessarily have earthly mass.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Jesus brings those that sleeping Jesus (earthly death of the physical body) to be resurrected in the new heavenly body (glorified physical body like that of Jesus, flesh and bone).

To remove one part from the whole is to have the entirety of the creature cease to exist.

Disagree, chapter and verse for this?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Wordsmith]

Dust to dust, means back to the basic elements, so whether good or bad, they go to the grave with no thoughts,

This only refers to the physical body!

The born again person upon death their spirit (soul) goes to be with the Lord until the physical body is resurrected and reunited withe the spirit man.

See post #5

asleep till Christ wakes them at the resurrection, one of the just and the second one for the unjust...

There is no soul sleep doctrine in scripture! One has to ignore many passages and context to TRY to support this false doctrine.

 

[Josheb]

Dust to dust, means back to the basic elements, so whether good or bad, they go to the grave with no thoughts, asleep till Christ wakes them at the resurrection, one of the just and the second one for the unjust...

2 Corinthians 5:8 states otherwise. To be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[Josheb]

I disagree!

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls were obviously absent their body because on earth they were slain for the Word of God.

Just because you put a sentence in bold-face type does not make it correct or true. Theose people given the robes had mass, otherwise they could not be seen, and they had bodies upon which they could put robes.

Form yes mass not necessarily mass as we know it in the earthly realm..

I never said anything about "mass as we know it in the earthly realm." That is YOUR prejudice, not mine. Get rid of it. If a thing has form then it has mass; it has a body.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus tells us a spirit does not have the earthly mass of flesh and bone.

No, he never said any such thing. You are again adding to scripture things the scripture does not state. Stop abusing God's word to prove a God-forsaken belief.

Yet in Revelation 6 those souls could speak and wear heavenly robes...

Was ANY thought put into your post as you were writing it? If they could speak then they had mouths. If they could wear robes, then they had bodies on which to put the robes. Their bodies may have been different than ours, but they had bodies. They were not bodiless.

There is no such thing as a bodiless soul or a bodiless spirit in the Bible. The bodies of the dead are different, but they are nonetheless bodies.

 

[Wordsmith]

Just because you put a sentence in bold-face type does not make it correct or true.

True ! I just do that to separate what I write from what I quote.

Theose people given the robes had mass, otherwise they could not be seen, and they had bodies upon which they could put robes.

I never said anything about "mass as we know it in the earthly realm." That is YOUR prejudice, not mine. Get rid of it. If a thing has form then it has mass; it has a body.

Maybe it was just your use of the word mass that caused the confusion here.

No, he never said any such thing. You are again adding to scripture things the scripture does not state. Stop abusing God's word to prove a God-forsaken belief.

We can just agree to disagree! I did not add anything here!

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Flesh and bones, earthly "mass" that can be touched, Jesus said a spirit was not the same. Make it say what you wish , I'll stand by my statement. Jesus did make a definite distinction between the two.

Was ANY thought put into your post as you were writing it?

Apparently at least as much as yours!

If they could speak then they had mouths.

Of course but they are in the spirit realm , quite different, next time you touch the mass of a spirit let me know.

If they could wear robes, then they had bodies on which to put the robes.

I would guess the robes are of a spiritual nature and wouldn't hang to well on an earthly body. Just my speculation of course.

Their bodies may have been different than ours, but they had bodies. They were not bodiless.

We can agree on something here they are most certainly different.

There is no such thing as a bodiless soul or a bodiless spirit in the Bible. The bodies of the dead are different, but they are nonetheless bodies.

Again I believe your choice of wording is the confusion here!

"Josheb said:
As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any disembodied soul or disembodied spirit."

Let's let the scripture speak on this.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In this context the spirit and soul are not the body. My understanding is man is a triune being , spirit, soul and body. 3 parts make up the man.

When a man dies the spirit, soul leaves the body.

"As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any " souls in heaven referred to as being in bodies while there. Jesus being the one exception.


2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

All of this speak of leaving the earthly body behind. Jesus was resurrected and all believers will be resurrected. I added nothing and am comfortable with everything I have said on the matter.

 

[Josheb]

Maybe it was just your use of the word mass that caused the confusion here.

That and the influence of your own biases on your own thinking.

We can just agree to disagree! I did not add anything here!

As long as that's not a cop-out.
The fact is a body has mass and one of the ways humans (and angels and God) make note of mass, or a body, is by sight. If it can be seen then it has mass. Light is bouncing off of it, thereby proving the existence of matter, or mass. It has a body. If YOUR brain doesn't consider that information, the facts of physics as God has established them in creation and we understand them given our finiteness, then that failure is all on you and I encourage you to open your brain up to what scriture is saying every time it speaks about a dead person being seen or interacting with matter because there is not one place in the entire Bible where there is a bodiless soul or spirit, scripture never states any such condition, and every example you've provided proves it.

You just haven't been thinking that way.

Because you've assumed something not in evidence.

Apparently at least as much as yours!

The evidence proves otherwise.
And the evidence to that effect is....

Of course but they are in the spirit realm , quite different, next time you touch the mass of a spirit let me know.

LOL!
I've already shown examples of spirits being touched or capable of being touched! There are plenty more examples.

Matthew 17:4
Peter responded and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If You want, I will make three tabernacles here: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

What need do spirits have of tents? Or are Peters' words nonsense?

Luke 16:24
And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

He's got a mouth and in that mouth is a tongue. That tongue can supposedly benefit from a drop of material, physical water. You do understand every time a person is possessed, they are touching and being touched by a spirit, yes?

Jude 1:9
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

For what did Michael need the body if the spirit could go about non-corporeally?


More evidence of a lack of thought...

I would guess...

How about you stop guessing and reason through what is stated?

Again I believe your choice of wording is the confusion here!

"Josheb said:
As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any disembodied soul or disembodied spirit."

Let's let the scripture speak on this.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In this context the spirit and soul are not the body. My understanding is man is a triune being , spirit, soul and body. 3 parts make up the man.

When a man dies the spirit, soul leaves the body.

"As scripture is surveyed, we find there is not a single example of any " souls in heaven referred to as being in bodies while there. Jesus being the one exception.


2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

All of this speak of leaving the earthly body behind. Jesus was resurrected and all believers will be resurrected. I added nothing and am comfortable with everything I have said on the matter.

Again: not a single example you provided actually stated the soul or spirit does not have a body. Just because it shed one body does not mean it is bodiless or that it does not have another body.

1 Corinthians 15:35-44
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

There is a one-to-one correlation between the body buried and the body raised, and this is true throughout the Bible from beginning to end. You might also want to check with the Greek or add other translations to your examination because the KJV does not render Luke 23:34 well. The Greek states he breathed his last breath, not "ghost."

 

[Hobie]

This only refers to the physical body!

The born again person upon death their spirit (soul) goes to be with the Lord until the physical body is resurrected and reunited withe the spirit man.

See post #5


There is no soul sleep doctrine in scripture! One has to ignore many passages and context to TRY to support this false doctrine.

No, it is the whole person, what makes him a person and who he is resurrected and we see what this fully constituted human who is aware and has feelings, is raised up from the grave.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

All who have died in the faith will awake and come forth from the grave bodily, with understanding, to hear God’s voice and be raised up and taken to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Hobie]

How is this statement reconciled with the many examples in scripture (literal and parable) where dead people are said to communicate with others. How is this reconciled with the premise of every dead person standing before God for judgment or sentencing (are we to think they have no knowledge or awareness of that event)?

Do you believe "the dead know nothing" is applicable to everyone who dies, or only those who die dead apart from Christ?

The dead know nothing and they feel nothing, they die the first death that all mankind must face. People who die do not go to heaven or hell where they live on in playing on a harp or screaming in pain from being burned. They go to the grave where their bodies disintegrate or turn to dust because the life has ceased. They are unconscious of anything what basically one would be sleeping, without any awareness of what is happening on earth or in heaven. The scripture clearly establishes that the righteous dead are not in heaven, and the wicked dead are not in a place of burning. They are in the dust of the earth waiting for the resurrection day.

Jesus made clear what happens to the soul when He warned what to fear in Matthew 10:28

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This verse proves that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed in hell, the lake of fire at the end. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time

 

[makesends]

The dead know nothing and they feel nothing, they die the first death that all mankind must face. People who die do not go to heaven or hell where they live on in playing on a harp or screaming in pain from being burned. They go to the grave where their bodies disintegrate or turn to dust because the life has ceased. They are unconscious of anything what basically one would be sleeping, without any awareness of what is happening on earth or in heaven. The scripture clearly establishes that the righteous dead are not in heaven, and the wicked dead are not in a place of burning. They are in the dust of the earth waiting for the resurrection day.

The resurrected body, from our temporal view, comes at the end, but God does not only operate from within time, but from outside of time, since time is only a tool of causal sequence. God does not come from within time. The resurrected body, and the union of Christ with his church was not only pre-ordained, but ordained. To God, we esteem, it was a done deal when he spoke it into being. That it takes these many years to accomplish to consummation is irrelevant to the reality of it.

To our thinking, a long sleep. But to God, instantaneous: "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

Jesus made clear what happens to the soul when He warned what to fear in Matthew 10:28

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This verse proves that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed in hell, the lake of fire at the end. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time

Is it not possible that this "destruction" is 'other-worldly', and not time-related, never "over-and-done-with"?

 

[Mr GLee]

Matthew 17:4
Peter responded and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If You want, I will make three tabernacles here: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

What need do spirits have of tents? Or are Peters' words nonsense?

Good example.Two witness as one witness that God has spoke Moses and Elijah .The law and the testimony of faith (sola scriptura) the gospel of light

Isaiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Hobie]

The resurrected body, from our temporal view, comes at the end, but God does not only operate from within time, but from outside of time, since time is only a tool of causal sequence. God does not come from within time. The resurrected body, and the union of Christ with his church was not only pre-ordained, but ordained. To God, we esteem, it was a done deal when he spoke it into being. That it takes these many years to accomplish to consummation is irrelevant to the reality of it.

To our thinking, a long sleep. But to God, instantaneous: "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

Is it not possible that this "destruction" is 'other-worldly', and not time-related, never "over-and-done-with"?

But as you can see the two thieves didnt die that day and had to have their legs broken..
John 19:30-33
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Now as for time, God sets up constants for man, and thus we see the Weekly Cycle from Creation, along with gravity and other laws of the universe. So no, God works with man within the allotted time for us..

 

[makesends]

But as you can see the two thieves didnt die that day and had to have their legs broken..
John 19:30-33
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Now as for time, God sets up constants for man, and thus we see the Weekly Cycle from Creation, along with gravity and other laws of the universe. So no, God works with man within the allotted time for us..

Don't take me for a deist, who thinks God only worked at the beginning, and not within time. My emphasis that he does not come from within time does not mean that he does not do anything within time. In fact, from my studies on the matter, it seems time will be "swallowed up" (for lack of a better way to put it) within the eternal.

I haven't figured out a better, more immediate, way to prove it, but Divine Simplicity, Divine Omnipotence, Divine Aseity, Divine Transcendence and particularly, Divine Immanence, show that God is necessarily involved in EVERY aspect, EVERY detail, and, it can be argued, is, or provides, and upholds the very essence of matter and energy —in fact, the very essence of existence. (I can say what proves it to me, logically: That God is first cause; thus all else depends on him. But that's too long an argument for here, plus, I'm lazy.)

So, yeah, I agree with you there. Don't misunderstand me. But God is not constrained by his creation. There is no law governing him.

 

[Wordsmith]

No, it is the whole person, what makes him a person and who he is resurrected and we see what this fully constituted human who is aware and has feelings, is raised up from the grave.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

All who have died in the faith will awake and come forth from the grave bodily, with understanding, to hear God’s voice and be raised up and taken to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I am not sure what you actually believe but I do know we must consider all scripture on the matter and harmonize it.

Daniel speaks of those that sleep in the dust of the earth. (Physical body)

Thessalonians 4 tells us those that sleep in Jesus ( Dead physically ) will God bring with Him when He returns. The body is in the dust of the earth so what is God bringing back with Him? Obviously not the dead physical body but it must be the spirit man (soul) of the dead in Christ.

Revelation 6 tells us clearly that there are souls in heaven who departed this earth in physical death. Paul tells us to be absent from the body (physical death) is to be present with the Lord.

For all of these passages to harmonize the soul sleep doctrine is false!

 

[Wordsmith]

But as you can see the two thieves didnt die that day and had to have their legs broken..

Yes they did die that day. The needed help doing that, but they did die on those crosses that day.


John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

 

[Josheb]

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This verse proves that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed in hell, the lake of fire at the end.

LOL!

Then you acknowledge a body exists when the dead person is thrown into the fiery lake . It is not a bodiless soul

If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire.

Which is not the subject of this tangent.

The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time

Which is not the subject of this tangent.

The fact is there is no such things as a bodiless soul (or spirit) in the Bible. Whenever spirits appear in scripture they can be seen and have faculties attributed to them consistent with physical body parts (eyes see, ears hear, mouths speak, etc.). Not once is any soul (or spirit) ever said to be bodiless. The body buried decays, rots into nothingness and is destroyed but raised with a spiritual body. It's not a body like ours, but it is a body.

 

[Hobie]

Don't take me for a deist, who thinks God only worked at the beginning, and not within time. My emphasis that he does not come from within time does not mean that he does not do anything within time. In fact, from my studies on the matter, it seems time will be "swallowed up" (for lack of a better way to put it) within the eternal.

I haven't figured out a better, more immediate, way to prove it, but Divine Simplicity, Divine Omnipotence, Divine Aseity, Divine Transcendence and particularly, Divine Immanence, show that God is necessarily involved in EVERY aspect, EVERY detail, and, it can be argued, is, or provides, and upholds the very essence of matter and energy —in fact, the very essence of existence. (I can say what proves it to me, logically: That God is first cause; thus all else depends on him. But that's too long an argument for here, plus, I'm lazy.)

So, yeah, I agree with you there. Don't misunderstand me. But God is not constrained by his creation. There is no law governing him.

He sets up the time, matter, gravity, etc and works not only with the physical but in the time frame. He knows the first from the last, but He waits for us to overcome, to turn to Him, to follow Him and be ready for Him to come. He doesnt do it without time..