The Prosperity Gospel

[Arial]

As we can see from the six opening posts there is a lot wrong with Prosperity Theology (a label we can add to the list of oxymorons). Although I'd place the birth in folks like Kenyon, rather than Roberts (who I briefly met about forty years ago), and suggest it is giving prosperity preachers too much credit to say they're rooted in the occult's "New Thought," both the "theology" (a questionable term for what they teach) and the practices of preachers are straight out of hell, imo. I've met many of them, including a couple of the big names like Copeland, Hagin and Hinn, and I would use one word to describe them all.

I agree about Kenyon. Hagin plagiarized a lot of Kenyon's works almost word for word, and when he was caught said the Holy Spirit gave him the same words.

They look that way, sound that way and if you ever shake hands with one of them, then you'll consciously want to wash your hands afterward (heaven forbid they'd "lay hands" on you to manifest some gift of (some) spirit). I felt very much akin to the times I've interacted with former DC mayor Marion Barry. But maybe I'm just biased and being ornery. I went to go check Hinn out a couple of nights when his "revival" was in town and had the opportunity after one of the shows to ask him about Jesus and Christianity. He can preach the gospel. He simply prefers to do so for profit, and he is very good at preying, not just praying.

Ever watch some of their videos on you tube. Copeland especially looks truly possessed of the devil or utterly insane.

 

[makesends]

fastfredy0 said:
Anyone here know of a 'stock selection' site run by a 'Prosperity Gospel' group? I need some winning picks.

I know that is a joke but that little inner click as listed in one of the OP posts sometimes does recommend investments in various things, to all their affiliate churches across the country. Iraqi dollars was one of them a number of years ago. And then they get their followers to pyramid scheme all their friends and relatives. It is a disgrace.

Trying to think of the name of a guy who considers Joel Osteen one of his successes. He make no bones about being a 7 or 8-figure mogul over an empire that basically teaches people how to make money by "Challenging people" (or something like that) accompanied with some kind of scripture studies.

Ah found the name: Pedro Adao. 31 day wisdom challenge - PEDRO ADAO

 

[makesends]

I agree about Kenyon. Hagin plagiarized a lot of Kenyon's works almost word for word, and when he was caught said the Holy Spirit gave him the same words.

"steal from one another words supposedly from Me" Jeremiah 23:30

Ever watch some of their videos on you tube. Copeland especially looks truly possessed of the devil or utterly insane.

Copeland ...Yep. Just plain creepy.

 

[Josheb]

Haha! That is accurate! Greasy!!! Slimy, I would have said.

I have to differ slightly with your statement, "The latter twist, misuse and abuse God's word but that's recognizable only by those who studied for themselves." Some of us grew up being daily drenched in the scriptures --ok yes, it was the KJV, but, still-- there is a certain urgency and direction and focus endemic to the Word of God that these false teachers miss completely, but those who, even if they don't study for themselves, hear from use of scriptures, that makes the false noticeably "off", and obviously not trustworthy. Call it, as some might say, "a catch in my spirit", or "a halting by the Spirit", or whatever, it was there.

Also, we know that whether or not it is by discernment or by whatever else God uses, the Elect will finally not fall away, regardless of what direction they went. These false teachers can only deceive them so far, and no more.

The operative word is "study." I know their followers know scripture. The problem is they do not know it exegetically. I cannot tell you the number of times I've been sitting with a client who was a prosperity believer and asked them about a confounding verse or passage and received either confusion, denial, or rage in response. Psychologically speaking, people have to have "causes" and those who over-emphasize their cause become what the NT would call "zealots," not merely people with zeal. It is self-protective (psychologically speaking) and, therefore, often borders on idolatry (spiritually speaking). One of the most fundamental aspects of a stronghold is the inability to see it (or to see it and not want to do anything about it). There's an entire syndrome associated with this kind of thinking and behavior. It can happen with any belief (abortion, taxes, any theological denomination or doctrine, etc.). It happens a lot with the "positive confession," or "name-it-and-claim-it" crowd, too.

 

[Josheb]

I agree about Kenyon. Hagin plagiarized a lot of Kenyon's works almost word for word, and when he was caught said the Holy Spirit gave him the same words.

Ever watch some of their videos on you tube. Copeland especially looks truly possessed of the devil or utterly insane.

I used to watch his show from time to time on the television. Most of these televangelists wear too much makeup and the look like wax figures. Copeland was not different in person. He looked like a mannequin, not an actual, real-life person. Thinking I can believe and give to get more money is tempting.

That is the point.

James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Woe to the one by whom that temptation comes. I'd also like to add that most followers of this "gospel" I've known say they started out as sceptics. I suspect it was exposure that wore them down. It doesn't take much viewing of Olsteen to realize that guy is savvy and slick.

 

[Arial]

The operative word is "study." I know their followers know scripture. The problem is they do not know it exegetically. I cannot tell you the number of times I've been sitting with a client who was a prosperity believer and asked them about a confounding verse or passage and received either confusion, denial, or rage in response. Psychologically speaking, people have to have "causes" and those who over-emphasize their cause become what the NT would call "zealots," not merely people with zeal. It is self-protective, psychologically speaking, and, therefore, often borders on idolatry, spiritually speaking. One of the most fundamental aspects of a stronghold is the inability to see it. There's an entire syndrome associated with this kind of thinking and behavior. It can happen with any belief (abortion, taxes, any theological denomination or doctrine, etc.). It happens a lot with the "positive confession," or "name-it-and-claim-it" crowd, too.

Reason and logic and biblical exegesis, systematically presented, will not penetrate the fortress. Only God can do that. Nevertheless the logic, biblical systematic exegesis must be presented. No one knows whose heart God will soften to be moldable and pliable in his hand or whose ears he will open. (Incidentally, the same problem exists with many Catholics, and heretics of all sorts. Which is why so called debates on forums more often than not, become circular.)

I think it would be good at this point in the thread to begin addressing specifics teachings and comments from Word of Life sources and expose the ways in which they are false teaching and what the Bible teaching is.

With this intent in mind, this morning I went to the Copeland Ministries site. To be honest, it turns my stomach in much the same way reading about Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy its founder, does and so I don't. (I was raised in CS.) So I am going to need a coffee break and a breather before I come back to it. But it is so deceptive, so enticing, so right sounding that I weep for those baby Christians that begin in that mess, just as I did. A lot of what they say is actually true, but not the way they are using it. Faith is central to all their teaching, but they have changed the definition of faith from its biblical use and definition. Not just changed the definition, but actually removed it altogether. So I guess when I come back, I will start there. I welcome every example and POV from others. If I have to do this all by myself my sanity is at stake.

Oh my! I made a negative confession!

 

[Arial]

The following is countering a Kenneth Copeland blogg on the The ABCs of Faith - KCM Blog

I will break it into separate posts so as to keep each post a reasonable length. All his words will be in blue in all successive post on the blogg.

Do you want to become a faith champion? Start by practicing the fundamentals! Learn the ABCs of faith that will catapult you to victory.​

The blogg is introduced taking up a great deal of space, with human examples from sports and a child learning to read in the pursuit of becoming a champion.

His point in applying that to becoming a faith champion is summed up with:
"So, how did the professionals become the best? How did they become champions? Practice, practice and more practice. Then, just when they thought they’d arrived, they practiced some more.

What did they practice? The fundamentals—the basics—of their sport.

This pattern of focusing on the basics—the ABCs—has been a hallmark of the most successful coaches and athletes in every sport. They know one important factor of reaching your goal—focusing on the fundamentals is what determines your results."

The ground work has been laid for defining "faith" in the Bible without ever using the Bible itself to define "faith." It has become something unrelated to salvation or the saving work of Christ. It has become something of our own that we can become champions of----through practice. This we shall see as I pull more quotes from the blogg.

So, what is the Bible definition of faith as it relates to the Christian Faith? How is the Bible using that word when it uses it? That in itself is a rather complex and long discussion, but it can be summarized, because the Bible itself does so in some scriptures. The most well known would probably be Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(This scripture says the same thing in its full context and the full counsel of God because I have not changed its meaning by "isolating" it for the purposes of length of post.)

If we consider it with what Scripture, including many of Jesus' own words, continuously tell us, we begin to see what is meant here by "faith". ( Romans 6:23; John 3:36; John 11:25-25 etc.) So, this faith of Eph is believing the the person and work of Jesus. It is saving faith. A faith that saves.

This faith, this believinging in Jesus, is a gift of God, not something we generate or practice. This faith grows as to the knowledge it contains as we grow in our knowledge of God and his word.

To be continued:

 

[Arial]

Counter Cipeland's blogg on the ABC's of becoming a faith champion, continued.
"That’s the way it is with faith. To become proficient in operating in great faith—to become a champion—you first have to master the fundamentals. As you do this, your healing will come faster, your financial breakthroughs will be quicker and easier, and your time between “amen” and “there it is” will narrow more and more.

You can become a champion of faith when you work to master these ABCs of faith."

So faith here, according to Copeland has nothing to do with the saving faith of the Bible. It is in fact, alienated from it entirely as its own separate thing. It uses the name of Jesus for its own desires for healing and "financial breakthroughs". As though this is why Christ went to the cross.

"A. Believe the Word of God​

“Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” –Mark 11:24 (NIV)​

Whatever the situation—whatever the challenge—FAITH will bring you the victory. And practice will produce the perfect law of liberty in every area of your life! The first, and most important, of the basics of faith is to believe the Word of God. You’ve heard it said again and again that faith begins where the will of God is known."

It is the use of this scripture in a truly "proof text" way, that distorts even the true words spoken by Copeland.

What is a proof text? A text used to support a claim that is isolated from everything else in Scripture and from all theology.

What are the true claims in that quote? "The first, and most important, of the basics of faith is to believe the Word of God."

This is true of saving faith for it is the only way one can be saved. By believing God and what he says in his word, specifically about Jesus.

It is not true according to Copeland's use of the word "faith." Which at this point and always is hidden, couched as it is in Bible words. In his definition, Christ and salvation have left the building. This is what is so dangerous to the new believer who falls into their hands. Faith is never given its true Bible usage and so it is never learned. All is seen through this lens. Faith becomes a power we have within us to manipulate God.


"And faith always comes. There is no such thing as faith that won’t come—just like there’s no such thing as water that won’t boil. But it isn’t enough to just know the Word of God—you need to believe the Word of God. That means, whenever a challenge arises, the first place you go for answers is the Word of God. It can be tempting to just believe what the world says—the doctor says, “There’s no cure for this,” your employer says, “You aren’t qualified for a promotion,” your family says, “All teenagers rebel.'"

Sounds good, right? Starting with "But it isn't..." and ending with "for answers is the Word of God" that is true. However, remember "faith" has been redefined.
How do you get to the place where you believe God’s Word over everything else?

"You spend time in the Word every day. You read and meditate on His Word again and again and again. You keep filling your fuel tank until it is so overflowing, you can’t help but operate in faith every day of your life."

Yes, we should do this, and yes this is how we grow and learn. But what goal of championship is Copeland aiming for and teaching? Not seeking the kingdom of heaven first. No seeking God and learning of him. Success in whatever you do and want. Success in bringing to pass something where there is nothing. Success in achieving your own will.

Here we see it:


"What need do you have in your life today? Is it healing? Study the scriptures about healing—meditate on them, confess them every day, speak them out loud, read them over and over, listen to faith-filled teaching about healing. It is this repetition and consistency in your study of the Word on the matter of healing that will finally get it down in your spirit."

Not biblical faith at all but manipulation of the scriptures for personal gain.

To be continued.

 

[Arial]

Countering Copelands blogg continued.

"B. Speak the Word of God​

“He will have whatever he says.” –Mark 11:23 (NKJV)​

Words are a powerful force. You can speak them so freely, it may seem hard to believe. But words are not primarily for communication. Words are primarily for power release. Words created this planet. That’s why what you say and what you don’t say is important."


There is an implication in relating it to God's creative acts, that mankind is or can be, equal with God in a creative manner, simply speaking it. But is it proper to use that snippet of conversation to say that words are primarily for power release rather than communication? Ask anyone outside that community, believer or unbeliever alike (New Thought proponents excepted) and they will laugh. But of course that is not enough. So let's look at a bit more of Mark 11.

20-24 As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. And Peter remembered and said to him, "Rabi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered." And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Having faith in God is the key to understanding what follows. And the moving a mountain is hyperbole to strengthen Jesus's message, but it is still connected to faith in God. As is the praying that follows. So what is that faith in God? Will that alone move a mountain at our request? Or bring an answer to our prayers?

It means that if God wants that mountain moved and one knows this then it will be moved when you tell it to move. It means that God will answer your prayer according to his purpose and will, and his purpose and will are perfect. Our will and purpose is not.

 

[makesends]

Countering Copelands blogg continued.

"B. Speak the Word of God​

“He will have whatever he says.” –Mark 11:23 (NKJV)​

Words are a powerful force. You can speak them so freely, it may seem hard to believe. But words are not primarily for communication. Words are primarily for power release. Words created this planet. That’s why what you say and what you don’t say is important."


There is an implication in relating it to God's creative acts, that mankind is or can be, equal with God in a creative manner, simply speaking it. But is it proper to use that snippet of conversation to say that words are primarily for power release rather than communication? Ask anyone outside that community, believer or unbeliever alike (New Thought proponents excepted) and they will laugh. But of course that is not enough. So let's look at a bit more of Mark 11.

20-24 As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. And Peter remembered and said to him, "Rabi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered." And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Having faith in God is the key to understanding what follows. And the moving a mountain is hyperbole to strengthen Jesus's message, but it is still connected to faith in God. As is the praying that follows. So what is that faith in God? Will that alone move a mountain at our request? Or bring an answer to our prayers?

It means that if God wants that mountain moved and one knows this then it will be moved when you tell it to move. It means that God will answer your prayer according to his purpose and will, and his purpose and will are perfect. Our will and purpose is not.

Words are powerful, and Copeland will have to give account for every one of his words.

 

[Arial]

Continued: Blue is Copeland

Copeland:
"He was passing by and the disciples pointed out to Him that the tree had withered up from the roots. That’s the force of faith-filled words—they dominate the laws of sin and death."

Really? Is that what the Bible says cominates the laws of sin and death? First of all it never says there are laws of sin and death, but a law of sin and death.

Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

In Romans 7 (what came before the "therefore") Paul has been focused on the Law (that Law given at Sinai through Moses) as leading to death. Romans 7:5-6 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the written code.

And the punishment for sin is death. For the believer, there is no longer any condemnation because through Christ we have been made alive by the Spirit.

Faith (as a creative force or as saving faith) does not dominate the law of sin and death. That is perverse. Jesus conquered death in his own death by substituting himself as vicarious payment for the sins of his people and his resurrection bore witness of that fact.
1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. by his wounds you have been healed.

Not only has Christ left the room in the Word of Faith movement, but God, salvation, eternal life, the kingdom of heaven, the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, atonement, justification, the gospel, theology, sound doctrine, exegesis, have all departed from the "gospel" they preach. They may and do in some cases assent to those things, but they do not enter into what they teach, nor are they taught on.

 

[makesends]

So faith here, according to Copeland has nothing to do with the saving faith of the Bible. It is in fact, alienated from it entirely as its own separate thing. It uses the name of Jesus for its own desires for healing and "financial breakthroughs". As though this is why Christ went to the cross.

Right. It has, in his use, become a mere tool for Christian self-fulfillment at best, but more, for self-aggrandizement and selfish ambition and fleshly desire.

It has no use for, "To God be the glory", except as thanks for what God has (through OUR faith in his temporal promises) done toward our [financial or physical] well-being and success. Rings of the Pharisee's public prayer.

 

[Arial]

The ABC's of becoming a faith champion according to K Copeland. All his words will be in blue.

There is power in your words as a born-again believer. That’s why it isn’t enough to renew your mind in the Word of God if you aren’t going to use it for anything. When a child learns his or her ABCs, the purpose isn’t just knowing them, but putting them to use—turning them into spoken words. The same is true with faith. It won’t do you any good to just know the truth of God’s Word—you’ve got to put it to work!

Faith won't do you any good unless you put it to work? I don't think these people ever recognize the faith of the Bible. Probably not even in Eph 2:8. There is no Christ in their so called Christianity. There is nothing of the Bible except borrowed and twisted words. This man and all his associated preachers are wolves in sheep' clothing. Masquerading as light.

Jude 3-4 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for his condemnation, ungodly people ,who pervert the grace of our God into sin--- and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

12-13 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

I will have to stop here. It is too upsetting, that these teachers feed lies to the people and the people eat it up, never being trained in sound doctrine,unable to even see it because everything they read in the Bible is seen through this lens. If any want to read the rest of the blog and.or comment on it, it is here. blog.kcm.org/the-abcs-of-faith/

 

[makesends]

The ABC's of becoming a faith champion according to K Copeland. All his words will be in blue.

There is power in your words as a born-again believer. That’s why it isn’t enough to renew your mind in the Word of God if you aren’t going to use it for anything. When a child learns his or her ABCs, the purpose isn’t just knowing them, but putting them to use—turning them into spoken words. The same is true with faith. It won’t do you any good to just know the truth of God’s Word—you’ve got to put it to work!

Faith won't do you any good unless you put it to work? I don't think these people ever recognize the faith of the Bible. Probably not even in Eph 2:8. There is no Christ in their so called Christianity. There is nothing of the Bible except borrowed and twisted words. This man and all his associated preachers are wolves in sheep' clothing. Masquerading as light.

Jude 3-4 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for his condemnation, ungodly people ,who pervert the grace of our God into sin--- and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

12-13 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

I will have to stop here. It is too upsetting, that these teachers feed lies to the people and the people eat it up, never being trained in sound doctrine,unable to even see it because everything they read in the Bible is seen through this lens. If any want to read the rest of the blog and.or comment on it, it is here. blog.kcm.org/the-abcs-of-faith/

No thanks! I have no wish to hear more of that! You are exactly right to quote Jude there.

 

[Arial]

@makesends

Not angry at me I hope. (post # 33)

 

[Josheb]

Oh my! I made a negative confession!

(extends hand in her general direction) In the name of Jesus, come out of her! lol

 

[makesends]

@makesends

Not angry at me I hope. (post # 33)

lol, no! I'm with you there, that reading his garbage becomes unbearable, the whole mindset is contrary to God and his Word. In the vernacular, it pisses me off.

But I wondered how that would be taken. I will adjust it. (If I can find it now).

 

[fastfredy0]

I know that is a joke but that little inner click as listed in one of the OP posts sometimes does recommend investments in various things, to all their affiliate churches across the country. Iraqi dollars was one of them a number of years ago. And then they get their followers to pyramid scheme all their friends and relatives. It is a disgrace. I don't know how many my sister has tried to involve me in and once my mother with a direct investment into her pastors ponzy scheme. I am behind my sister's back shaking my head no, no, no. I already knew by that time that guy was a farce and a crook. He ended up in prison in Texas for seventeen years. Got out, came back, stated up his church again even though he was never allowed to have a church. He had not been rehabilitated. It technically isn't his church, he just preaches there. My sister did finally recognize his true colors and went to a different Word of Life church.

Yikes!!

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
I know that is a joke but that little inner click as listed in one of the OP posts sometimes does recommend investments in various things, to all their affiliate churches across the country. Iraqi dollars was one of them a number of years ago. And then they get their followers to pyramid scheme all their friends and relatives. It is a disgrace. I don't know how many my sister has tried to involve me in and once my mother with a direct investment into her pastors ponzy scheme. I am behind my sister's back shaking my head no, no, no. I already knew by that time that guy was a farce and a crook. He ended up in prison in Texas for seventeen years. Got out, came back, stated up his church again even though he was never allowed to have a church. He had not been rehabilitated. It technically isn't his church, he just preaches there. My sister did finally recognize his true colors and went to a different Word of Life church.

Yikes!!

Sometimes, it seems, they actually think that the Christian life is all about temporal success. It really is that bad.

This fellow, Pedro Adao, makes no bones about it. Straightforward use of scripture to produce Prosperity Gospel. From what I have seen, he doesn't even, except in first contact with new disciples, hide what he's all about.