The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves the Christians from the WRATH!!!

[CrowCross]

The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves us from the WRATH!!!

In scripture we read that the christians are saved from the WRATH of God.

1 Thes 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thes 5:1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Christians are not told they will be preserved from the wrath and trials and go through the 7 years tribulation...but like Noah and Lot will be delivered from Gods Judgement.

Luke 17:26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

How does this happen?

1 thes 4:13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Jesus comes twice....The angels in Acts one told the men of Galilee the following:
9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.10They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Many confuse the way Jesus left at His ascension with what is called the "second coming" presented in Rev 19....

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

We can know when we are delivered from the WRATH it happens prior to the PHYSICAL second coming because Jesus didn't leave on a white horse....At the rapture the angels told the men Jesus would return the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.
Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.

1 Thes 4:18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[CrowCross]

The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation,....after that it's not mentioned until chapter 22 verse 16

Why? Because the christians have been removed at the pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation,....after that it's not mentioned until chapter 22 verse 16

Why? Because the christians have been removed at the pre-tribulation rapture.

Your argument rests entirely on the absence of a word—as if God’s truth hinges on Greek vocabulary statistics. But this kind of reasoning collapses under the weight of Scripture itself.

Hebrews, a book written to believers, mentions the word ekklesia only once, and even then it’s a citation of Psalm 22 (Hebrews 2:12). Does that mean the Church was absent when Hebrews was written? Of course not. The whole letter exhorts believers to endure, hold fast to their confession, and continue meeting together (Heb. 3:1; 4:14; 10:23–25). If we applied your logic there, we’d have to conclude Hebrews wasn’t written to Christians.

This should be a caution against the hermeneutical gymnastics required by dispensationalism. It’s not just bad theology—it’s an argument from silence used to override what is actually in the text.

Because the Church—the saints—is clearly present all throughout the so-called “tribulation” sections of Revelation:

— “They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony…” (Rev. 12:11)
— “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” (Rev. 14:12)
— “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus…” (Rev. 20:4)

The absence of the word ekklesia doesn’t erase the reality of the Church’s presence. As Riddlebarger noted in A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times Revelation’s visions are not chronological newspaper clippings of future events but cyclical and symbolic representations of the Church’s conflict with the powers of this present evil age. The saints are there because we are the ones called to endure.

Even Louis Berkhof, writing decades earlier, affirmed this in his Systematic Theology (p. 732):

“The Church, militant in all ages, shares in the suffering and opposition of the present age, and will endure until the final consummation.”

Dispensationalism needs the Church to disappear in Revelation 4 to make its system work. But that’s theological eisegesis, not exegesis. The saints in Revelation are not some other group—they are us. The sealed, the elect, the faithful witnesses. The Church.

And Christ didn’t promise escape. He promised triumph through suffering:

“In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)
“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Let’s not trade the blood-bought perseverance of the saints for a system that has to pretend we disappear in order to avoid discomfort.

 

[Arial]

The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation,....after that it's not mentioned until chapter 22 verse 16

Why? Because the christians have been removed at the pre-tribulation rapture.

The entire book of Revelation is a letter that was distributed to those seven churches. A letter! So why was John writing to them about a seven year period that had nothing to do with them or if Christians weren't going to be there, why write about it at all?

Is a pre-trib rapture ever mentioned IN the book of Revelation?

 

[CrowCross]

Your argument rests entirely on the absence of a word

No. My argument is based upon multiple reasons. The Chruch not being mentioned during the tribulation account mentioned in Revelation was one of the reasons that strongly support the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

 

[Josheb]

The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves us from the WRATH!!!

In scripture we read that the christians are saved from the WRATH of God.

1 Thes 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thes 5:1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Christians are not told they will be preserved from the wrath and trials and go through the 7 years tribulation...but like Noah and Lot will be delivered from Gods Judgement.

Luke 17:26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

How does this happen?

1 thes 4:13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Jesus comes twice....The angels in Acts one told the men of Galilee the following:
9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.10They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Many confuse the way Jesus left at His ascension with what is called the "second coming" presented in Rev 19....

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

We can know when we are delivered from the WRATH it happens prior to the PHYSICAL second coming because Jesus didn't leave on a white horse....At the rapture the angels told the men Jesus would return the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.
Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.

1 Thes 4:18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Argumentum ad nauseam

Repeating the arguments posted in the "The Rapture or the Second Coming" thread does not make the position true.

 

[Josheb]

The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves us from the WRATH!!!

In scripture we read that the christians are saved from the WRATH of God.

1 Thes 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thes 5:1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

To whom do the personal pronouns in that passage refer? To whom does the "you," the "we" and the "us" refer?

 

[CrowCross]

The entire book of Revelation is a letter that was distributed to those seven churches. A letter! So why was John writing to them about a seven year period that had nothing to do with them or if Christians weren't going to be there, why write about it at all?

Is a pre-trib rapture ever mentioned IN the book of Revelation?

The word harpazo isn't used but Paul already explaind the "rapture" in 1 Thes 4...it's in the OP if you need to review it. Jesus did tell the Church of Philadelphia that He would keep them from the hour of trial coming to the entire earth. (what is mentioned in the book of Revelation)

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
How does the bible say Jesus will keep the church from the trials....It won't be an ark like He used to deliver Noah from the judgement...or He won't tell the christians to skedaddle like He did with Lot when He was delivered from the destruction of Sodom.
Concerning the tribulation Paul informs us how the Church will be delivered in 1Thes 4 16'ish or as we see in in 2nd Thes 2:1....
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, (which refers to the rapture)

In several verses down Paul mentions the rapture using a different word...departure....as seen in the Geneva bible of 1587.
2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"

Paul tells us the departure...rapture...gathering...apostasia....occurs prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

So, we must ask"apostasy" as some translation use...just what does the word mean?

The meaning of the word refers to ... "to stand away" or "to depart." I copied that directly from Strongs 646. apostasia

The question is....does depart mean a spiritual departure or a physical spatial departure? Or can it refer to BOTH?

Concerning a physical departure the word apostasia is derived from the word aphistémi.
Acts 12:10 uses this word as follows:
"and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him." This departure wasn't a spiritual departure but rather a physical departure. It should be noted the departure wasn't an act of rebellion committed by the angels.

We see it again in 2 Cor 12:8....For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

This is yet another example where Paul told the Church the rapture would be pre-tribulation.
Paul was telling the Thessalonians that the Tribulation period had not began.

 

[Arial]

No. My argument is based upon multiple reasons. The Chruch not being mentioned during the tribulation account mentioned in Revelation was one of the reasons that strongly support the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

The letter is TO seven churches. Why would the church need to be mentioned?

The word harpazo isn't used but Paul already explaind the "rapture" in 1 Thes 4...it's in the OP if you need to review it. Jesus did tell the Church of Philadelphia that He would keep them from the hour of trial coming to the entire earth. (what is mentioned in the book of Revelation)

Yes, but it does not say that rapture (a catching up, not a removal) occurs before a seven year tribulation, or that it is to keep them from tribulation. It does relate it to the resurrection and glorification of the saints when he returns. The recipients of that letter would never have read into it what you have read into it. They would have absolutely no way of doing so. As to the church in Philadelphia, it does not say that trial coming over the whole earth is confined within a seven year period. And none of those people were "raptured" out of any trials or tribulations. They all died normal deaths. So again, eisegesis.

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, (which refers to the rapture)

Eisegesis stated as fact.

In several verses down Paul mentions the rapture using a different word...departure....as seen in the Geneva bible of 1587.
2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"

Paul tells us the departure...rapture...gathering...apostasia....occurs prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

So, we must ask"apostasy" as some translation use...just what does the word mean?

The meaning of the word refers to ... "to stand away" or "to depart." I copied that directly from Strongs 646. apostasia

I will come back to that in another post as it would make this one too long, and your eisegesis and assumptions require a thorough dealing with. But using an outdated as to language translation to bolster your position does not do the job. It just shows you had to go looking for something you thought would do so.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No. My argument is based upon multiple reasons.

So far not a valid argument to be found yet.

Everytime someone disproves you according to Scripture you just pretend that didn't matter because there's other reasons.

Well so far all your other reasons are just smoke and mirrors, covering up that your beliefs in DP are not based in a sound hermeneutic with Scripture properly exegeted.

The Chruch not being mentioned during the tribulation account mentioned in Revelation was one of the reasons that strongly support the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

Since the Church is made up of believers (saints and so forth) and there's believers after Revelation 4 - as the post you're replying to pointed out - you have nothing to support your argument.

 

[Josheb]

The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves us from the WRATH!!!

In scripture we read that the christians are saved from the WRATH of God.

..............................


Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There is much that is wrong with that interpretation.

First, at the opening of Revelation John wrote Jesus "is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him." If every eye is seeing him, including those who pierced him, then everyone - including Christians - is present when he comes with the clouds. Then there are the conflicts your interpretation has with Rev. 1:9, which explicitly states John is "a fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus." Note John states the tribulation and the kingdom and perseverance in Christ - all three - involve Christians, the Church, and the normal reading is that the three co--occur. Even if read as a chronological sequence of events John went through it along with the bondservants of Christ. John, a Christian, participated, a partaker, in the tribulation. In other words, he was not a benign observer that wasn't present.

Then there are the problems of timing. Most scholars, including many Dispensational Premillennialists, like John MacArthur and Gary Hamrick read the letters to the seven churches to be about events that happened in the first century (both early daters and late daters ascribe to that position). For many Dispensational Premillennialists the events and conditions described in the seven letters are not in our future. Their purpose for Christians living two millennia later is allegorical. I will gladly quote a DPer or two stating the seven letters pertain to past events. Even if the seven letter are not taken to be about past events, the timestamp of Rev. 1:19 explicitly states some of Revelation had already transpired, some of it was happening at the time of John's writing the prophecy and only about a third of it pertained to future events that would occur after the first two categories.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, [o]and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

• Things you have seen = events to which John had already been a witness.
• Things which are = things that existed at the time Revelation was written.
• Things which will take place after these things = the remaining events that chronologically follow the first two conditions.

So, not everything in Revelation is future even for John and his original first century readers. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches all the above incorrectly.

As we dive into the letters themselves we read the following,

• The church in Ephesus is told to "repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place." In other words, Jesus does not come if they repent! If they do not repent, then Jesus comes and removes their lampstand. Furthermore, this is the first time the one common directive to ALL seven of the seven churches is stated: the matter of their overcoming. What is there to overcome if they are not around? So much for the premise Christians are never the objects of God's wrath.
• The letter to the church in Smyrna opens with, "I know your tribulation"!!! They are going through tribulation at the time John wrote Revelation! On top of the tribulation they are already experiencing they are told, "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days." That verse alone should be sufficient to refute and cause the discarding of the premise Christians never go through tribulation.
• The church in Pergamum is described as being located in Satan's throne! They have experienced violent persecution and some among them have been killed (see Rev. 7:14). To them Jesus promises to make war on those who are persecuting them. They are not removed from the planet. They too are told to persevere and overcome.
• The church in Thyatira is told to "hold on" and overcome until Christ comes. They are experiencing a litany of internal conflicts. It's a set of congregations rife with false teachers. Those who tolerate Jezebel are told they will suffer great tribulation.
• The church in Sardis is told to wake up and, likewise, repent, persevere, and overcome. The one who overcomes will be awarded white garments (once again, refer to Rev. 7:14).
• The verse you've selected, Revelation 3:10, was written to the church in Philadelphia. That set of congregations is also told to hold fast and overcome. They are going to be kept from the hour of testing that comes upon the whole world..... because they have little power and yet have remained faithful. They're being kept from testing is not because they'll be removed from the planet. There is nothing in any of the seven letters even remotely implying Christians in those seven churches will be removed from the planet.
• The church in Laodicea is also told to repent, persevere, and overcome. Jesus also states he reproves and disciplines those he loves. They do not get physically removed from the planet; they get disciplined. In point of fact when Jesus comes, they are supposed to open the door for him.

So, when what is stated in each of the letters is examined, we find the bondservants of Christ go through a variety of tests, travails, and tribulation. They are not prevented from experience any of them..... except those Christ visits upon the ungodly. One of the fundamental errors in Dispensational thinking is that tribulation, the great tribulation, is monolithic; it is only about God's wrathful judgment of those denying God when the larger facts of whole scripture show tribulation is also often testing for God's people. Daniel's life was spared when God used Babylon to judge Israel and lay waste to it but Daniel, nonetheless, had to endure years of enslavement, brutal treatment, testing and extraordinary tribulation. God used the exile to purify the people. The Babylonian captivity last seventy years, not seven.

When the text of scripture in Revelation leading up to the selectively used Rev. 3:10 is properly exegeted the Dispensational Premillennial interpretation proves untenable. Christians may be preserved, but that does not mean they do not suffer. Christians may not be judged, but that does not mean they are not purified. Noah and Lot were both still on earth when they witnessed God's destruction of the ungodly.

 

[Josheb]

The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves us from the WRATH!!!

In scripture we read that the christians are saved from the WRATH of God.

............................................................

Christians are not told they will be preserved from the wrath and trials and go through the 7 years tribulation...but like Noah and Lot will be delivered from Gods Judgement.

Luke 17:26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

This is a bait and switch. No one disputes Noah or Lot was spared judgment. The point of dispute pertains to the claim being spared judgment requires a person to be physically removed from the planet. There is no precedent for such an interpretation anywhere in scripture. The only persons ever reported to be removed from the planet are Enoch and Elijah and neither removal had anything to do with sparing them tribulation. Furthermore, tribulation is not synonymous with judgment. Tribulation ensues as a consequence of judgment. The tribulation is not the judgment.

The facts of the account of Noah is that the ones taken away were destroyed and the ones who remained on earth lived life in a covenant relationship with God. That is the exact opposite of how Dispensational Premillennialism handles what happened in the days of Noah.

 

[Josheb]

How does this happen?

1 thes 4:13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Yep. The "catching up," occurs at Christ's coming. It is not a separate event.

Jesus comes twice....The angels in Acts one told the men of Galilee the following:
9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.10They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Which would mean Jesus first comes to the earth and then departs from the earth. Jesus did not go to heaven from the air. He went to heaven from the earth. If you are going to appeal to the words, "in the same" way and treat them literally then Jesus will come all the way to the earth and then leave. Furthermore, Acts 1:9-11 do NOT state Jesus comes twice after his ascension. Neither does the 1 Thessalonians 4 text. The living and the dead are raised at the coming of the Lord. The dead in Christ are raised first.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Many confuse the way Jesus left at His ascension with what is called the "second coming" presented in Rev 19....

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

We can know when we are delivered from the WRATH it happens prior to the PHYSICAL second coming because Jesus didn't leave on a white horse....At the rapture the angels told the men Jesus would return the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.
Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.

Oh so much wrong with that. First of all, Jesus does not leave heaven on a white horse. Neither Revelation 6, nor Revelation 19 (the two places where the white horse is mentioned) ever state Jesus leaves heaven! HUGE assumption on your part. Huge assumption on the part of Dispensational Premillennialism. John explicitly state heaven "opened up" and that is where John saw the white horse. The white horse (and his rider) are in heaven and it is from heaven the white horse's rider, Jesus, judges and wages war. It is the beast and kings of the earth that wage war who assemble their armies to wage war against Christ..... while Jesus is still observed by John to be in heaven. There's no mention of his leaving heaven and no mention of his meeting people in the air, and no mention of him ever physically setting foot on earth. There is no mention of him leaving as he left at his ascension.

Jesus is not stated to leave heaven until chapters 21 and 22.

1 Thes 4:18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There is no encouragement to be found in the misuse and abuse of God's word or false teaching.

What you've done is teach Dispensational Premillennialism. You have not taught scripture. The two are not synonymous and now you've got several posts from several witness of varying eschatological orientations showing you the many, many errors prevalent in the way DPism handles God's word. They cut up scripture, ignoring the audience affiliations, the temporal markers, the text of the surrounding verse, and the stated context in those verses and they do it a lot. The hermeneutic of Dispensationalism purports a requirement to read scripture literally but this op fails to do that in multiple examples. That's because Dispensationalism is inconsistent with its own requirements. Dispensational Premillennialism is a bad eschatology, and Dispensationalism is a bad theology. As a consequence, Dispensationalism leads its adherents into a life of enormous, substantive disconnection. A Dispensationalist ends up living a life where always-failing prognostications are believed, false teacher followed, and no accountability is ever had.

Dispensational Premillennialism is the only theology that separates the rapture from the second coming. That teaching occurs in direct irreconcilable contradiction to what Christianity has otherwise uniformly taught for two thousand years.

 

[Josheb]

The word harpazo isn't used

Then why add it to the text when the text explicitly commands against adding to the text?

but Paul already explaind the "rapture" in 1 Thes 4...

No, he did not. Paul most definitely did not explain Dispensational Premillennial rapture. Not the same thing. Confirmation bias has not place in sound exegesis, or sound doctrine.

 

[makesends]

The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation,....after that it's not mentioned until chapter 22 verse 16

Why? Because the christians have been removed at the pre-tribulation rapture.

That's some really lousy logic. Just saying...

Even if you are right, you show no progression of logic as to how or why it is so.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, but it does not say that rapture (a catching up, not a removal) occurs before a seven year tribulation, or that it is to keep them from tribulation. It does relate it to the resurrection and glorification of the saints when he returns. The recipients of that letter would never have read into it what you have read into it. They would have absolutely no way of doing so. As to the church in Philadelphia, it does not say that trial coming over the whole earth is confined within a seven year period. And none of those people were "raptured" out of any trials or tribulations. They all died normal deaths. So again, eisegesis.

For some reason you seem to think everytime the rapture is mentioned the bible should also mention it's pre-trib and the trib last 7 years.

 

[CrowCross]

That's some really lousy logic. Just saying...

Even if you are right, you show no progression of logic as to how or why it is so.

Because the rapture happened.....no need to mention the church unless you're reflecting back.

 

[CrowCross]

There is much that is wrong with that interpretation.

First, at the opening of Revelation John wrote Jesus "is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him." If every eye is seeing him, including those who pierced him, then everyone - including Christians - is present when he comes with the clouds. Then there are the conflicts your interpretation has with Rev. 1:9, which explicitly states John is "a fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus." Note John states the tribulation and the kingdom and perseverance in Christ - all three - involve Christians, the Church, and the normal reading is that the three co--occur. Even if read as a chronological sequence of events John went through it along with the bondservants of Christ. John, a Christian, participated, a partaker, in the tribulation. In other words, he was not a benign observer that wasn't present.

I'm trying to respond but your scattered words and thoughts make no sense.

Then there are the problems of timing. Most scholars, including many Dispensational Premillennialists, like John MacArthur and Gary Hamrick read the letters to the seven churches to be about events that happened in the first century (both early daters and late daters ascribe to that position). For many Dispensational Premillennialists the events and conditions described in the seven letters are not in our future. Their purpose for Christians living two millennia later is allegorical. I will gladly quote a DPer or two stating the seven letters pertain to past events. Even if the seven letter are not taken to be about past events, the timestamp of Rev. 1:19 explicitly states some of Revelation had already transpired, some of it was happening at the time of John's writing the prophecy and only about a third of it pertained to future events that would occur after the first two categories.

Yet again....another non argument. Is this what the rapture debate has reduced you to? Of course the portion addressed to the 7 churches contained events of their day...LOL....Big deal???

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, [o]and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

• Things you have seen = events to which John had already been a witness.
• Things which are = things that existed at the time Revelation was written.
• Things which will take place after these things = the remaining events that chronologically follow the first two conditions.

So, not everything in Revelation is future even for John and his original first century readers. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches all the above incorrectly.

Did you make the claim for me that I said everything in Revelation was future? How does that defend or not defend the rapture, tribulation, second coming, 1000 year reign or eternity?

As we dive into the letters themselves we read the following,

• The church in Ephesus is told to "repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place." In other words, Jesus does not come if they repent! If they do not repent, then Jesus comes and removes their lampstand. Furthermore, this is the first time the one common directive to ALL seven of the seven churches is stated: the matter of their overcoming. What is there to overcome if they are not around? So much for the premise Christians are never the objects of God's wrath.
• The letter to the church in Smyrna opens with, "I know your tribulation"!!! They are going through tribulation at the time John wrote Revelation! On top of the tribulation they are already experiencing they are told, "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days." That verse alone should be sufficient to refute and cause the discarding of the premise Christians never go through tribulation.
• The church in Pergamum is described as being located in Satan's throne! They have experienced violent persecution and some among them have been killed (see Rev. 7:14). To them Jesus promises to make war on those who are persecuting them. They are not removed from the planet. They too are told to persevere and overcome.
• The church in Thyatira is told to "hold on" and overcome until Christ comes. They are experiencing a litany of internal conflicts. It's a set of congregations rife with false teachers. Those who tolerate Jezebel are told they will suffer great tribulation.
• The church in Sardis is told to wake up and, likewise, repent, persevere, and overcome. The one who overcomes will be awarded white garments (once again, refer to Rev. 7:14).
• The verse you've selected, Revelation 3:10, was written to the church in Philadelphia. That set of congregations is also told to hold fast and overcome. They are going to be kept from the hour of testing that comes upon the whole world..... because they have little power and yet have remained faithful. They're being kept from testing is not because they'll be removed from the planet. There is nothing in any of the seven letters even remotely implying Christians in those seven churches will be removed from the planet.
• The church in Laodicea is also told to repent, persevere, and overcome. Jesus also states he reproves and disciplines those he loves. They do not get physically removed from the planet; they get disciplined. In point of fact when Jesus comes, they are supposed to open the door for him.

So, when what is stated in each of the letters is examined, we find the bondservants of Christ go through a variety of tests, travails, and tribulation. They are not prevented from experience any of them..... except those Christ visits upon the ungodly. One of the fundamental errors in Dispensational thinking is that tribulation, the great tribulation, is monolithic; it is only about God's wrathful judgment of those denying God when the larger facts of whole scripture show tribulation is also often testing for God's people. Daniel's life was spared when God used Babylon to judge Israel and lay waste to it but Daniel, nonetheless, had to endure years of enslavement, brutal treatment, testing and extraordinary tribulation. God used the exile to purify the people. The Babylonian captivity last seventy years, not seven.

When the text of scripture in Revelation leading up to the selectively used Rev. 3:10 is properly exegeted the Dispensational Premillennial interpretation proves untenable. Christians may be preserved, but that does not mean they do not suffer. Christians may not be judged, but that does not mean they are not purified. Noah and Lot were both still on earth when they witnessed God's destruction of the ungodly.

With all due respect....more word salad.

 

[CrowCross]

This is a bait and switch. No one disputes Noah or Lot was spared judgment. The point of dispute pertains to the claim being spared judgment requires a person to be physically removed from the planet. There is no precedent for such an interpretation anywhere in scripture. The only persons ever reported to be removed from the planet are Enoch and Elijah and neither removal had anything to do with sparing them tribulation. Furthermore, tribulation is not synonymous with judgment. Tribulation ensues as a consequence of judgment. The tribulation is not the judgment.

The facts of the account of Noah is that the ones taken away were destroyed and the ones who remained on earth lived life in a covenant relationship with God. That is the exact opposite of how Dispensational Premillennialism handles what happened in the days of Noah.

I'm not going to respond to the Noah argument with you anymore...I've already told you that and explained why. Bascially, you lost that argument. For some reason you want to pick open your wound.

 

[Arial]

For some reason you seem to think everytime the rapture is mentioned the bible should also mention it's pre-trib and the trib last 7 years.

Just once might be enough. It's a pretty big deal if it's true. Especially in those places where it is specifically dealing with the second advent of Christ and and also the resurrection of the saints. The apostles were always pretty clear in what they taught, so why hide that behind a cloak of silence?

Now, why don't you deal with what I actually said in my post? Have you noticed that when people respond to your posts they tackle what you have said head on instead of ignoring it and posting an irrelevancy?