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The nature of the church!

Divine Law:

The church is of divine origin and cannot be corrupted or reformed by the tradition of men! Truth is immutable!

The church the only ark of salvation, the household of faith and is not spiritual to the exclusion of the physical or invisible to the exclusion of the visible but, visible, invisible, spiritual, physical, and supernatural of divine origin and therefore divine preservation! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 10:16

A city set on a hill: Matt 5:14
Light of the world: Matt 5:14
Pillar of truth: 1 Tim 3:15
Teach and sanctify all men: Matt 28:19

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic (succeeding from Christ, Peter and the apostles)
 
Do you agree that someone can be a member of the Catholic Church and not be a true believer?
 
Do you agree that someone can be a member of the Catholic Church and not be a true believer?
No, faith is required and to reject the faith revealed by God is to reject God and to put yourself outside the church

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

But we cannot decide truth and Christian faith for ourselves but must be taught

Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…
Thanks
 
No, faith is required and to reject the faith revealed by God is to reject God and to put yourself outside the church
Agreed
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Which in context means orthodoxy as opposed to gnostic heresy
 
Agreed

Which in context means orthodoxy as opposed to gnostic heresy
It is unlawful to reject any truth revealed by God thru Christ and taught by holy mother church
Thanks
 
It is unlawful to reject any truth revealed by God thru Christ and taught by holy mother church
Thanks
I'm not rejecting God's one true Church. Indeed, I am a member of it
 
Sorry
Not accusing you we not enemies or anything like that, I was only stating the truth about revealed doctrine
Thanks
I think we largely agree on doctrine
 
But historically it is simply not true that the Roman Catholic Chuch is the same first century Church. Just because RCC has adopted (some would say 'hijacked') the term "catholic" doesn't make them the one true Church. The one true Church is not an institution but built of "living stones" of true believers identified, marked, and sealed by the Spirit. Just joining the Catholic Church (or Protestant or Orthodox!) does not guarantee one is a member of the one true catholic (Universal) Church of Christ, which by its very nature is inherently *invisible* *spiritual* (i.e., born of the Spirit).

The fact that one can sit in a pew or be a member of any church including the Catholic church and be confirmed and follow the sacraments and do everything expected and required, but still not believe in their heart and thus, not be an actual believer is proof of the point. Being a card-carrying member is not proof of spiritual transformation. More than anything the one true Church of Christ is "spiritual" in nature = born of the Spirit; not the natural.
First, the name of Christ's Church is the Catholic Church. The "Roman" part is nothing more than a polemic made by the Anglicans. We can historically trace the Church through the centuries from today, back to Christ, with an unbroken chain.

Protestantism didn't begin until the 16th century! Roughly 1600 years after the Catholic Church was founded by Christ.

The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. Before that, there was one Church. And it wasn't called Orthodox. It was called "Catholic" as I've shown in previous posts. We have historical evidence from a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch appointed by St. Peter, the Apostle. How much more evidence do you need? There is no historical evidence of an earlier Church.

Christ founded a (one!) Church. He trained twelve Apostles. The Apostles trained their successors, the bishops. Those bishops trained their successors, who were bishops. And so forth, for 2000 years now.

All you have claim to is personal interpretation of Scripture, which Scripture condemns in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Unless, of course, you're Mormon and claim an angel came down and made some "correctiions" to the Deposit of Faith given us by Christ? But even that is dubious.
 
First, the name of Christ's Church is the Catholic Church. The "Roman" part is nothing more than a polemic made by the Anglicans. We can historically trace the Church through the centuries from today, back to Christ, with an unbroken chain
I use RCC to distinguish from the true Catholic ("whole, complete") Church of Christ. We can historically trace churches back to the apostles, but not to the church at Rome. Eastern Orthodox has the better argument that rejects papal supremacy.
The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. Before that, there was one Church
They would argue it's the other way around.
And it wasn't called Orthodox. It was called "Catholic" as I've shown in previous posts.
The term catholic comes from the Greek and simply means complete, whole. Simply taking the name (some would say 'hijacked') does not prove the RCC is the one and only true church.
We have historical evidence from a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch appointed by St. Peter, the Apostle. How much more evidence do you need? There is no historical evidence of an earlier Church.
And that historical evidence from Ignatius indicates bishops over local churches were seen as equals that traced back to the apostles and that all were an extension of the 'catholic' whole, complete church. There was no primacy of the bishop of Rome.
How much more evidence do you need? There is no historical evidence of an earlier Church.
Evidence of the most important kind: the glaring absence of the main attribute of the true Church that is missing: where is the empowering presence of the Spirit that defined the first century Church and Body of Christ?
 
I use RCC to distinguish from the true Catholic ("whole, complete") Church of Christ. We can historically trace churches back to the apostles, but not to the church at Rome. Eastern Orthodox has the better argument that rejects papal supremacy.

They would argue it's the other way around.

The term catholic comes from the Greek and simply means complete, whole. Simply taking the name (some would say 'hijacked') does not prove the RCC is the one and only true church.

And that historical evidence from Ignatius indicates bishops over local churches were seen as equals that traced back to the apostles and that all were an extension of the 'catholic' whole, complete church. There was no primacy of the bishop of Rome.

Evidence of the most important kind: the glaring absence of the main attribute of the true Church that is missing: where is the empowering presence of the Spirit that defined the first century Church and Body of Christ?
Well, you are certainly free to call anything whatever you like. We at least have freedom of speech and thought, for the time being, in this country. I support your right to do so! It is not possible to give an exact year when the Catholic Church began to be called the “Roman Catholic Church,” but it is possible to approximate it. The term originates as an insult created by Anglicans who wished to refer to themselves as Catholic. They thus coined the term “RomanCatholic” to distinguish those in union with Rome from themselves and to create a sense in which they could refer to themselves as Catholics (by attempting to deprive actual Catholics to the right to the term).
Different variants of the “Roman” insult appeared at different times. The earliest form was the noun “Romanist” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which appeared in England about 1515-1525. The next to develop was the adjective “Romish” (similar to something done or believed in the Catholic Church), which appeared around 1525-1535. Next came the noun “Roman Catholic” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which was coined around 1595-1605. Shortly thereafter came the verb “to Romanize” (to make someone a Catholic or to become a Catholic), which appeared around 1600-10. Between 1665 and 1675 we got the noun “Romanism” (the system of Catholic beliefs and practices), and finally we got a latecomer term about 1815-1825, the noun “Roman Catholicism,” a synonym for the earlier “Romanism.”
A similar complex of insults arose around “pope.” About 1515-25 the Anglicans coined the term “papist” and later its derivative “papism.” A quick follow-up, in 1520-1530, was the adjective “popish.” Next came “popery” (1525-1535), then “papistry” (1540-1550), with its later derivatives, “papistical” and “papistic.” (Source: Random House Webster’s College Dictionary, 1995 ed.)
This complex of insults is revealing as it shows the depths of animosity English Protestants had toward the Church. No other religious body (perhaps no other group at all, even national or racial) has such a complex of insults against it woven into the English language as does the Catholic Church. Even today many Protestants who have no idea what the origin of the term is cannot bring themselves to say “Catholic” without qualifying it or replacing it with an insult.

Modern Eastern ecclesiologists agree with Catholics that the apostles chose successors. But what authority did Jesus give to Peter himself? Catholics and Orthodox Christians are divided over the issue.

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Christ gave Peter both the power of the keys and the power of binding and loosing. The first was given to Peter alone (Matt. 16:19), the second also to the other apostles (Matt. 18:18). Orthodox apologists claim that these two commissions to Peter are in fact identical. Whatever authority Christ gave to Peter, he gave to all the apostles.

If the Orthodox belief is correct, then our study of early Church history should reveal that every bishop, wherever located, exercised the same authority as did the bishop of Rome. Instead, from the first century onward, the successors of Peter exercised authority unlike that of any other bishop.

In many instances bishops of churches in the Eastern part of the Empire requested—even begged—the bishop of Rome (the Pope) to banish heresies and settle theological disputes which the bishops themselves could not resolve. These facts constitute the early Church’s tradition about the universal jurisdiction of the successor of Peter.

They "keys" referred to in Matt. 16:19 are telling. They refer to a symbol of an office commonly used by kings (Jesus is our King!), who was second-in-command of the kingdom when the king was unavailable (off to war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc.). Whatever this second-in-command ruled in the king's place, was upheld by the king upon his return. And the symbol of this office was a large key or two (2-3 ft. long) carried by the second-in-command over his shoulder, so people would know he had authority. And this office was dynastic. If the second-in-command died, another was chosen to take his place. This is the type office Jesus established in Matt. 16:19 when He gave Peter the "keys" to the kingdom of heaven. And when Peter died, another took his place, and so forth until we get to today's Pope.
 
Well, you are certainly free to call anything whatever you like. We at least have freedom of speech and thought, for the time being, in this country. I support your right to do so! It is not possible to give an exact year when the Catholic Church began to be called the “Roman Catholic Church,” but it is possible to approximate it. The term originates as an insult created by Anglicans who wished to refer to themselves as Catholic. They thus coined the term “RomanCatholic” to distinguish those in union with Rome from themselves and to create a sense in which they could refer to themselves as Catholics (by attempting to deprive actual Catholics to the right to the term).
Different variants of the “Roman” insult appeared at different times. The earliest form was the noun “Romanist” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which appeared in England about 1515-1525. The next to develop was the adjective “Romish” (similar to something done or believed in the Catholic Church), which appeared around 1525-1535. Next came the noun “Roman Catholic” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which was coined around 1595-1605. Shortly thereafter came the verb “to Romanize” (to make someone a Catholic or to become a Catholic), which appeared around 1600-10. Between 1665 and 1675 we got the noun “Romanism” (the system of Catholic beliefs and practices), and finally we got a latecomer term about 1815-1825, the noun “Roman Catholicism,” a synonym for the earlier “Romanism.”
A similar complex of insults arose around “pope.” About 1515-25 the Anglicans coined the term “papist” and later its derivative “papism.” A quick follow-up, in 1520-1530, was the adjective “popish.” Next came “popery” (1525-1535), then “papistry” (1540-1550), with its later derivatives, “papistical” and “papistic.” (Source: Random House Webster’s College Dictionary, 1995 ed.)
This complex of insults is revealing as it shows the depths of animosity English Protestants had toward the Church. No other religious body (perhaps no other group at all, even national or racial) has such a complex of insults against it woven into the English language as does the Catholic Church. Even today many Protestants who have no idea what the origin of the term is cannot bring themselves to say “Catholic” without qualifying it or replacing it with an insult.

Modern Eastern ecclesiologists agree with Catholics that the apostles chose successors. But what authority did Jesus give to Peter himself? Catholics and Orthodox Christians are divided over the issue.

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Christ gave Peter both the power of the keys and the power of binding and loosing. The first was given to Peter alone (Matt. 16:19), the second also to the other apostles (Matt. 18:18). Orthodox apologists claim that these two commissions to Peter are in fact identical. Whatever authority Christ gave to Peter, he gave to all the apostles.

If the Orthodox belief is correct, then our study of early Church history should reveal that every bishop, wherever located, exercised the same authority as did the bishop of Rome. Instead, from the first century onward, the successors of Peter exercised authority unlike that of any other bishop.

In many instances bishops of churches in the Eastern part of the Empire requested—even begged—the bishop of Rome (the Pope) to banish heresies and settle theological disputes which the bishops themselves could not resolve. These facts constitute the early Church’s tradition about the universal jurisdiction of the successor of Peter.

They "keys" referred to in Matt. 16:19 are telling. They refer to a symbol of an office commonly used by kings (Jesus is our King!), who was second-in-command of the kingdom when the king was unavailable (off to war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc.). Whatever this second-in-command ruled in the king's place, was upheld by the king upon his return. And the symbol of this office was a large key or two (2-3 ft. long) carried by the second-in-command over his shoulder, so people would know he had authority. And this office was dynastic. If the second-in-command died, another was chosen to take his place. This is the type office Jesus established in Matt. 16:19 when He gave Peter the "keys" to the kingdom of heaven. And when Peter died, another took his place, and so forth until we get to today's Pope.
If "RCC" offends you I will stop using it. I do not wish to offend (especially a fellow believer). Blessings to you
 
.
" Petros " is a shifting, rolling, or insecure stone - pieces of a rock - pebbles a small stone or small rock

" Petros " is simply another word for - pieces of grit - small nugget or pieces of gravel or pellets

this is the meaning of the name of Peter in the Bible - Peter literally means - a piece of a rock - a pebble a small stone or small rock as in small nugget or piece of gravel = as smaller pieces of a large rock


" Petra " is a boulder or a huge mass of rock as - a solid, immovable massive rock.

these two words are not interchangeable in the scriptures - Peter is never called " Petra " - and Petra is never called Peter.

there is no way for Catholics to support the supremacy of the Pope as ordained by Jesus other than relying upon tradition alone.


in fact Peter is not addressing Roman Catholic Priests or Popes nor addressing Rome in 1Pe 1: 1 - 5

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

:5 You also, as living stones, - are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Anointing.

the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, are as living stones, - whom are building up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
Peter is saying that all believers even the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

all believers are as living stones - building up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood
the entire concept of the Roman Catholic Church, is this not pure supposition and assumption that has absolutely nothing in scripture to validate itself - like circular reasoning


Does not the entire premise of Papal Infallibility demonstrate a display of circular reasoning.

who or what decides exactly what teachings, doctrines and comments are truly delegated from the chair of St Peter

what is it that suddenly enthrones or dethrones the Vatican Primates from this chair - from one second to the next ?
 
this is the meaning of the name of Peter in the Bible - Peter literally means - a piece of a rock - a pebble a small stone or small rock as in small nugget or piece of gravel = as smaller pieces of a large rock


" Petra " is a boulder or a huge mass of rock as - a solid, immovable massive rock.

these two words are not interchangeable in the scriptures - Peter is never called " Petra " - and Petra is never called Peter.
There was only a distinction between the two words in Classical/Attic Greek not biblical koine Greek
these two words are not interchangeable in the scriptures - Peter is never called " Petra " - and Petra is never called Peter.
Peter can't be called Petra because he's a male and Petra is a feminine noun. It is unmistakable in Aramaic and the same word: "You are kephas and on this kephas I will build my church"

1. I am Protestant not Catholic
2. Christ is THE ROCK chief cornerstone foundation
3. Ephesians tells us the apostles are part of theater foundation but not THE chief cornerstone
4. Jesus really did say to Peter on him (Peter) he would build His church (but that did not mean Peter is THE cornerstone; only Jesus is)
5. Catholics are right about the Peter part, however where I think they go wrong is with the apostolic succession part (which is not taught in those verses)

Best
 
there is no way for Catholics to support the supremacy of the Pope as ordained by Jesus other than relying upon tradition alone.
Agreed. The early church witness is more favorable to the Orthodox view of success9
 
.
" Petros " is a shifting, rolling, or insecure stone - pieces of a rock - pebbles a small stone or small rock

" Petros " is simply another word for - pieces of grit - small nugget or pieces of gravel or pellets

this is the meaning of the name of Peter in the Bible - Peter literally means - a piece of a rock - a pebble a small stone or small rock as in small nugget or piece of gravel = as smaller pieces of a large rock


" Petra " is a boulder or a huge mass of rock as - a solid, immovable massive rock.

these two words are not interchangeable in the scriptures - Peter is never called " Petra " - and Petra is never called Peter.

there is no way for Catholics to support the supremacy of the Pope as ordained by Jesus other than relying upon tradition alone.


in fact Peter is not addressing Roman Catholic Priests or Popes nor addressing Rome in 1Pe 1: 1 - 5

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

:5 You also, as living stones, - are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Anointing.

the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, are as living stones, - whom are building up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
Peter is saying that all believers even the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

all believers are as living stones - building up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood
the entire concept of the Roman Catholic Church, is this not pure supposition and assumption that has absolutely nothing in scripture to validate itself - like circular reasoning


Does not the entire premise of Papal Infallibility demonstrate a display of circular reasoning.

who or what decides exactly what teachings, doctrines and comments are truly delegated from the chair of St Peter

what is it that suddenly enthrones or dethrones the Vatican Primates from this chair - from one second to the next ?
No it depends on the Holy Spirit Jn 16:13
And more specifically how something is defined
By holy apostolic decree from the chair of Peter to the universal church
Not what one says getting out of the car or at the diner table
And there is NO NEW DOCTRINE

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13) one faith (eph 4:5) the faith delivered to the apostles (Jude 1:3)

The holy church found by Christ on Peter and the apostles have the duty to Guard the deposit of faith and to explain it faithfully.

Pope Agatho 7c

This Apostolic Church never turned from the way of truth nor held any kind of error. It is imperative that nothing of the truths which have been defined be lessened, nothing altered, nothing added, but that they be preserved intact in word and meaning. This is the true rule of faith.

Thanks
 
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