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The Gift of Healing.

Dave

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The Gift of Healing.

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

That's the biblical standard for the gift of healing.


The gift of healing was limited to Jesus, the Apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates like Phillip. It was never meant for the purpose that is wrongly being taught today. It was meant to confirm the message and the messenger. We now have the faith once for all delivered. People are quick to point out that healing and miracles are listed as gifts for the Church in some books from the Bible, but what they fail to realize is that Apostles are among those listed as the gifted because they were part of God's plan at that time and therefore also part of His Church.

Of the whole history of man in scripture, miracles through human agency were performed in three brief periods of time, each being about one hundred years. You can confirm this in your Bible if you do a study about when the miracles were happening. With the exception of a very few miracles like Samson's, the rest of them are clustered together in three one hundred year periods. In each of those one hundred year periods God was speaking to His people and that always resulted in what He said being recorded (His written Word). But now we have the faith that was once for all delivered.

Many charismatics claim that Isaiah 53 is proof that there is healing in the atonement, and therefore that results in the gift of healing for today. Let's take a closer look at Isaiah 53 and see what God was saying. The correct context of that chapter must be considered.

Isaiah1:4-6 Alas, sinful nation, A people laden with iniquity, A brood of evildoers, Children who are corrupters! They have forsaken the Lord, They have provoked to anger The Holy One of Israel, They have turned away backward. Why should you be stricken again? You will revolt more and more. The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, There is no soundness in it, But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores; They have not been closed or bound up, Or soothed with ointment.

In Isaiah 1, God was using physical sickness as a analogy for spiritual sickness from sin when speaking of Israel. Considering that context, Isaiah 53 makes perfect sense.

Isaiah 53:3-6 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The right context doesn't allow modern charismatic interpretations of Isaiah 53.

Now...still not convinced?

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.

The apostle Peter applies Isaiah 53:5 to salvation from sin.

Again, lets look further into the context,

1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

The expression healed (In 1 Peter 2:24) Means "to be forgiven." The phrase "but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." shows what Peter means by "healed" in verse 24.


Now, to the question "Is there healing in the atonement"?

There is a sense in which physical healing took place in the atoning work of Christ, but that healing waits to be realized in the future. The physical part of salvation (a physical wholeness) is something we look forward to, not something we possess today.

Rev. 21:4And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

The healing ministry of Jesus...

Matthew 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."


Now, you say that this means we're to claim healing in the atonement, and in a sense that is correct. Other than the authentication of the message and the messenger, Jesus healed people to illustrate the healing in the glory to come. But that's not yet realized. If the healing of the atonement were fully realized now, no Christian would ever be sick or die. The atoning work of Christ spiritually transforms us now and will physically transform us in the future.

Note: This is not to say that God cannot and does not heal today, even miraculously if He so desires. What it does mean is that He heals according to His will in answer to faithful prayer and no longer heals through the gift of healing (through human agency). It is not God's purpose that all Christians live in perfect health and many times God has a purpose in sickness. Never the less, it is all from God.

Miracle in the Biblical sense of the word...."a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes.

Providence....."Providence is Gods faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen."

P.S. God mostly answers prayer by providence.

Many people today confuse providence with miracles (In the Biblical sense of the word). I believe what is happening today is that people are being taught to see Him only in miracles, as a result, they are trying to make everything into a miracle. But God does not need for us to try to make everything into a miracle to be glorified. He did not create the universe and wind it up like a top just let go, occasionally intervening with a miracle here and there. He created the universe and governs it by His providence. He is intimately involved in every aspect of our lives. All of it. We will glorify God most if we see this. God is sovereign over all things, not just in miracles.

The gift of healing is not for today. The Bible, and the [lack of] evidences prove this overwhelmingly.

Dave
 
When it was a believer who was sick, then the sign to authenticate the message and the messenger was not needed as we see in the following verses.

2 Tim 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.

(to Timothy who was sick)
1 Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

Here's an example.

Act 3:6-8 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk." And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them--walking, leaping, and praising God.

That man wasn't told "if you have enough faith". He wasn't even asking to be healed or expecting it. Peter didn't ask God to answer his prayer. He proclaimed it, it happened. It always happened. None were turned away because they didn't have enough faith. Nobody asked for this in prayer. This is the healing through human agency. Peter had that authority. Please show me the person producing those results. All were healed (OP).

Mark 16:15-20 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. [/b]And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.[/b]

Do you know who did this? The ones mentioned in the OP. Do you know who didn't do this. Not one today. Not one.

That's why they are called the signs of the Apostles.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Even Jesus was confirmed by these same things

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

The signs confirmed the word and the person speaking it. No new revelation today. We have the faith once for all delivered. It seems very odd to me, to have to debate something that's not happening. But here we are.
 
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Jesus healed them all.
Mark 6:1-6 [NET]
Now Jesus left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue. Many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did he get these ideas? And what is this wisdom that has been given to him? What are these miracles that are done through his hands? Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren't his sisters here with us?" And so they took offense at him. Then Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house." He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed because of their unbelief. Then he went around among the villages and taught.
 
Mark 6:1-6 [NET]
Now Jesus left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue. Many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did he get these ideas? And what is this wisdom that has been given to him? What are these miracles that are done through his hands? Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren't his sisters here with us?" And so they took offense at him. Then Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house." He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed because of their unbelief. Then he went around among the villages and taught.
Generally speaking, Jesus would not do miracles for those Jews who were seeking after a sign for proof. More proof that what is happening in todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is not from God, since they all seek after the miracles, or rather, the sign.

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."
 
The Gift of Healing.

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

That's the biblical standard for the gift of healing.


The gift of healing was limited to Jesus, the Apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates like Phillip. It was never meant for the purpose that is wrongly being taught today. It was meant to confirm the message and the messenger. We now have the faith once for all delivered. People are quick to point out that healing and miracles are listed as gifts for the Church in some books from the Bible, but what they fail to realize is that Apostles are among those listed as the gifted because they were part of God's plan at that time and therefore also part of His Church.

Of the whole history of man in scripture, miracles through human agency were performed in three brief periods of time, each being about one hundred years. You can confirm this in your Bible if you do a study about when the miracles were happening. With the exception of a very few miracles like Samson's, the rest of them are clustered together in three one hundred year periods. In each of those one hundred year periods God was speaking to His people and that always resulted in what He said being recorded (His written Word). But now we have the faith that was once for all delivered.

Many charismatics claim that Isaiah 53 is proof that there is healing in the atonement, and therefore that results in the gift of healing for today. Let's take a closer look at Isaiah 53 and see what God was saying. The correct context of that chapter must be considered.

Isaiah1:4-6 Alas, sinful nation, A people laden with iniquity, A brood of evildoers, Children who are corrupters! They have forsaken the Lord, They have provoked to anger The Holy One of Israel, They have turned away backward. Why should you be stricken again? You will revolt more and more. The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, There is no soundness in it, But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores; They have not been closed or bound up, Or soothed with ointment.

In Isaiah 1, God was using physical sickness as a analogy for spiritual sickness from sin when speaking of Israel. Considering that context, Isaiah 53 makes perfect sense.

Isaiah 53:3-6 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The right context doesn't allow modern charismatic interpretations of Isaiah 53.

Now...still not convinced?

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.

The apostle Peter applies Isaiah 53:5 to salvation from sin.

Again, lets look further into the context,

1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

The expression healed (In 1 Peter 2:24) Means "to be forgiven." The phrase "but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." shows what Peter means by "healed" in verse 24.


Now, to the question "Is there healing in the atonement"?

There is a sense in which physical healing took place in the atoning work of Christ, but that healing waits to be realized in the future. The physical part of salvation (a physical wholeness) is something we look forward to, not something we possess today.

Rev. 21:4And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

The healing ministry of Jesus...

Matthew 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."


Now, you say that this means we're to claim healing in the atonement, and in a sense that is correct. Other than the authentication of the message and the messenger, Jesus healed people to illustrate the healing in the glory to come. But that's not yet realized. If the healing of the atonement were fully realized now, no Christian would ever be sick or die. The atoning work of Christ spiritually transforms us now and will physically transform us in the future.

Note: This is not to say that God cannot and does not heal today, even miraculously if He so desires. What it does mean is that He heals according to His will in answer to faithful prayer and no longer heals through the gift of healing (through human agency). It is not God's purpose that all Christians live in perfect health and many times God has a purpose in sickness. Never the less, it is all from God.

Miracle in the Biblical sense of the word...."a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes.

Providence....."Providence is Gods faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen."

P.S. God mostly answers prayer by providence.

Many people today confuse providence with miracles (In the Biblical sense of the word). I believe what is happening today is that people are being taught to see Him only in miracles, as a result, they are trying to make everything into a miracle. But God does not need for us to try to make everything into a miracle to be glorified. He did not create the universe and wind it up like a top just let go, occasionally intervening with a miracle here and there. He created the universe and governs it by His providence. He is intimately involved in every aspect of our lives. All of it. We will glorify God most if we see this. God is sovereign over all things, not just in miracles.

The gift of healing is not for today. The Bible, and the [lack of] evidences prove this overwhelmingly.

Dave
One thing that I hear constantly referred to in their reasoning, is the notion of the fall of Adam causing that there be sickness, and, consequently, the corruption (sickness) in individuals is to be undone concurrently with salvation (or, at least, at it should be taken care of as evidence of salvation, or evidence of faith, or some other such construction).
Now Jesus left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue. Many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did he get these ideas? And what is this wisdom that has been given to him? What are these miracles that are done through his hands? Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren't his sisters here with us?" And so they took offense at him. Then Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house." He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed because of their unbelief. Then he went around among the villages and taught.
That "He was not able to do a miracle there..." in my opinion is not a denial of his power or ability, but the purpose of his doing miracles per the will of the Father prohibited him.
 
That "He was not able to do a miracle there..." in my opinion is not a denial of his power or ability, but the purpose of his doing miracles per the will of the Father prohibited him.
No disagreement from me. I was just offering something God said in response to the repeated claim [Jesus, Peter, etc.] "healed them all." ... implying that there was never anyone that was ever not healed.
 
Generally speaking, Jesus would not do miracles for those Jews who were seeking after a sign for proof. More proof that what is happening in todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is not from God, since they all seek after the miracles, or rather, the sign.

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."

Yes, Jesus the Son on man dying mankind had no power to perform, miracles.

The Father is the miracle worker

Those who followed after lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder as if true prophecy before they would believe then return to unbelief (no trust in an invisible Father

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

The voice of Satan lying signs to wonder after rather than true prophecy as it is written

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
 
A quote from MacArthur.

2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased." Macarthur



------------------


Many of todays "faith healers" are from the name it and claim it crowd, like Smith Wigglesworth.

"He claimed that the Christian has the power to speak things into existence: "God declares, 'You have an anointing.' Believe God and you will see this happen. What you say will come to pass. Speak the word and the bound shall be free, the sick shall be healed" (Wigglesworth, "Power from on High," Pentecostal Evangel, May 27, 1944)."

That leads to the obvious question....Why would we need the "gift of healing" from those gifted in this way if all we needed to do was to claim it?

this next quote sums it all up very nicely.

"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence." (Thomas Edgar )That's a pretty devastating admission, really. But many Charismatics have had to come to grips with it and have admitted it."
 
A quote from MacArthur.

2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased." Macarthur



------------------


Many of todays "faith healers" are from the name it and claim it crowd, like Smith Wigglesworth.

"He claimed that the Christian has the power to speak things into existence: "God declares, 'You have an anointing.' Believe God and you will see this happen. What you say will come to pass. Speak the word and the bound shall be free, the sick shall be healed" (Wigglesworth, "Power from on High," Pentecostal Evangel, May 27, 1944)."

That leads to the obvious question....Why would we need the "gift of healing" from those gifted in this way if all we needed to do was to claim it?

this next quote sums it all up very nicely.

"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence." (Thomas Edgar )That's a pretty devastating admission, really. But many Charismatics have had to come to grips with it and have admitted it."
FWIW, there are more than one Reformed Charismatic church.
 
One thing that I hear constantly referred to in their reasoning, is the notion of the fall of Adam causing that there be sickness, and, consequently, the corruption (sickness) in individuals is to be undone concurrently with salvation (or, at least, at it should be taken care of as evidence of salvation, or evidence of faith, or some other such construction).

That "He was not able to do a miracle there..." in my opinion is not a denial of his power or ability, but the purpose of his doing miracles per the will of the Father prohibited him.
One thing that I hear constantly referred to in their reasoning, is the notion of the fall of Adam causing that there be sickness, and, consequently, the corruption (sickness) in individuals is to be undone concurrently with salvation (or, at least, at it should be taken care of as evidence of salvation, or evidence of faith, or some other such construction).
Yes and they use Isaiah 53:5 consistantly as proof

Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our peace fell upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

I was going to get into this debate on another forum with a member about this.

In all honsety, it always ends up with them twisting isolated Scriptures and in the end it is experiences feelings, emotions and intuitis that they are lead by.

They think that intuition and the like, is the leading of Holy Spirit.

Apologies for going OT.
 

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”​

― Henry Ford

(Cessationism reminds me of that quote)
 
I wonder why Jesus only healed one at the pool of Bethesda when such a large amount of people sought to be healed? (John 5:1-9)

Lees
 
Simply spiritual (not seen) eternal Power.

Can't see a "let there be" working towards "it was good" (that seen)

God's law of faith his understanding revealed

There is no outside sign we could use to prove God is working in us. Man looks on the outside temporal dying.

God finished all the "let there be" good labor of works in six days .

.Again a sign a invisible God is working pouring out Spirt life on dying flesh

Signs used as metaphors in parables do not come after the powerless apostles, sent messenger, UPS, Fed,X not highly venerable exalted ones.

Signs they follow prophecy or called tongues .The "let there be" and as a sign "it was good"

The law of faith or power. . . .(believing the unseen eternal things)

The prescription below needed to tightly divide the parables (signified tongue) it must be applied or no gospel (spiritual understanding)

One of the better interpretations tools that sometimes gets neglected.

2 Corinthians 4:18;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Simply spiritual (not seen) eternal.

God is Spirit. Not literal temporal dying. God is not a man

Tongues which is prophecy is a sign against those who refuse to walk by faith or let there be power of our unseen God

Satan the king of lying sign to chase after wondering, wondering if prophecy the tongue of God. (sola scriptura)

The Father of darkness would remove the power of faith that works in those born again from above and turn it over to the temporal things seen

Metaphors used in parables the signified tongue follow the key follow . Not lead I did it, it proves it.

Mark 14:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(Gospel) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing,(false prophecy) it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.;And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

1 Corithians 14:Wherefore tongues (prophecy) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying (tongue) serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Makes me wonder when Christ comes on the last day under the Sun. will he find his faithful powerful word working in the hearts of born-again men or experience the new validator of spiritual things. I had a dream; I saw a vison. I heard a word.

Imposible to deceive the Elect they understand we have the perfect .no need to wonder, wonder, after lying wonders.

Satan's only voice . . .the lie.
 
I wonder why Jesus only healed one at the pool of Bethesda when such a large amount of people sought to be healed? (John 5:1-9)

Lees
Everything God does has a purpose.

It doesn't say exactly why Jesus only healed the one man that day, but we can piece together a plausible reason very easily. The pool already had the power to heal miraculously. The first one to step into it, after it had been stirred, was miraculously healed. This man tried to step into it first, but people would always step in front of him. In other words, he couldn't put himself in the pool fast enough, probably because he was lame. Jesus, knowing this, also knew that it was the Sabbath, and no one could put him in the pool, because it was considered unlawful to do so on the Sabbath. There were many Laws like that, also. According to the Jews of that time, not the Sabbath, because the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Romans 14:5-6), those Jews also considered it unlawful for a man to heal another man on the Sabbath. The Jews watched Jesus so they could accuse Him. Jesus left in a very low key manner after healing that man himself, without the pool. The Jews asked that man and wanted to know who heeled him, but he didn't know because Jesus didn't tell Him who He was. Only later when Jesus had seen that man again in the Temple and told Him who He was, did that man go back and tell the Jews who it was who heeled Him. The Jews then tracked down Jesus and the persecuting began. So it wasn't the healing per say, but the means of that healing that was unique for that man on that day. The pool was from God also. There were reasons behind why it happened that way. Why Jesus was deliberately low key. It may have been nothing more than waiting for the appointed time.

Dave
 
I never heard of that. Are you sure that isn't that an oxymoron? :)

Dave
I would not call them Reformed Charismatics. I imagine @makesends is referring to is a movenment called The New Calvinism.

reformedforum.org/john-pipers-twelve-features-new-calvinism/

gotquestions.org/new-calvinism.html

I was surprised to see that Piper is a part of the movement. It is good in that it is reaching young people as all the A"ism and dispensationalism overtook almost the entire modern church which never heard the Calvinist teachings. However, I think they are opening doors in C'ism that are open in the non Calvinist churches, that should have been shut. They were gateways to all the foundation being dismantled in the first place. A focus on culture, charismatic, the lack of oversight in church government, a denial of the order of church government as given by Paul to Timothy and Titus, worship becoming entertainment rather than reverence. Too much catering to the not yet fully developed brains of the young, and their restlessness. We are letting them dictate the boundaries---that and the culture---when it is those seasoned and trained who should be listened to and learned from.

My two cents.
 
Everything God does has a purpose.

It doesn't say exactly why Jesus only healed the one man that day, but we can piece together a plausible reason very easily. The pool already had the power to heal miraculously. The first one to step into it, after it had been stirred, was miraculously healed. This man tried to step into it first, but people would always step in front of him. In other words, he couldn't put himself in the pool fast enough, probably because he was lame. Jesus, knowing this, also knew that it was the Sabbath, and no one could put him in the pool, because it was considered unlawful to do so on the Sabbath. There were many Laws like that, also. According to the Jews of that time, not the Sabbath, because the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Romans 14:5-6), those Jews also considered it unlawful for a man to heal another man on the Sabbath. The Jews watched Jesus so they could accuse Him. Jesus left in a very low key manner after healing that man himself, without the pool. The Jews asked that man and wanted to know who heeled him, but he didn't know because Jesus didn't tell Him who He was. Only later when Jesus had seen that man again in the Temple and told Him who He was, did that man go back and tell the Jews who it was who heeled Him. The Jews then tracked down Jesus and the persecuting began. So it wasn't the healing per say, but the means of that healing that was unique for that man on that day. The pool was from God also. There were reasons behind why it happened that way. Why Jesus was deliberately low key. It may have been nothing more than waiting for the appointed time.

Dave
Yes, there are reasons why it happened that way. Just like there are reasons one with the gift of healing doesn't go walking into a hospital and heals everybody.

Lees
 
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I would not call them Reformed Charismatics. I imagine @makesends is referring to is a movenment called The New Calvinism.

reformedforum.org/john-pipers-twelve-features-new-calvinism/

gotquestions.org/new-calvinism.html

I was surprised to see that Piper is a part of the movement. It is good in that it is reaching young people as all the A"ism and dispensationalism overtook almost the entire modern church which never heard the Calvinist teachings. However, I think they are opening doors in C'ism that are open in the non Calvinist churches, that should have been shut. They were gateways to all the foundation being dismantled in the first place. A focus on culture, charismatic, the lack of oversight in church government, a denial of the order of church government as given by Paul to Timothy and Titus, worship becoming entertainment rather than reverence. Too much catering to the not yet fully developed brains of the young, and their restlessness. We are letting them dictate the boundaries---that and the culture---when it is those seasoned and trained who should be listened to and learned from.

My two cents.
I was exposed maybe 20 years ago to a "deaf church", (deaf members and others, preaching in sign language, with English interpretation --and for those who haven't thought of it before, English (or any spoken language) is not sign language. English is extremely hard for the born deaf to learn to read.), very charismatic, and unabashedly Calvinistic. Reformed may not be the right word for it, but that is what they called themselves, from what I understood and what I think I was told by others.

The same that told me that said that there were several other Charismatic churches that considered themselves Reformed. I haven't looked into it, but I didn't get the idea of any particular "movement".

The deaf are very expressive in the face and body language. I laughed myself sick when the preacher pantomimed God looking down from above, suddenly for the first time realizing that things on earth were going awry. The shock, dismay and horror on his face and in his motions were unforgettable, but obviously meant in sarcasm --as if to say, "Now, really? This is Almighty God??"
 
I would not call them Reformed Charismatics. I imagine @makesends is referring to is a movenment called The New Calvinism.

reformedforum.org/john-pipers-twelve-features-new-calvinism/

gotquestions.org/new-calvinism.html

I was surprised to see that Piper is a part of the movement. It is good in that it is reaching young people as all the A"ism and dispensationalism overtook almost the entire modern church which never heard the Calvinist teachings. However, I think they are opening doors in C'ism that are open in the non Calvinist churches, that should have been shut. They were gateways to all the foundation being dismantled in the first place. A focus on culture, charismatic, the lack of oversight in church government, a denial of the order of church government as given by Paul to Timothy and Titus, worship becoming entertainment rather than reverence. Too much catering to the not yet fully developed brains of the young, and their restlessness. We are letting them dictate the boundaries---that and the culture---when it is those seasoned and trained who should be listened to and learned from.

My two cents.
You have a very good point. But no I don't think that is what I was talking about, as I showed in another response.

I wanted to mention how Piper comes across to me. I've been to several "Founders' Conferences" in the early 2000's, in which Piper spoke. He is, to me, overly uninhibited. He seems to delight in shock-value in some of his axiomatic claims, and other single statements, though not so much his statements that are intended AS Theological Doctrine. I was in one session where he brought up something that in most churches was a no-no to mention, (concerning sexual activity), and said something like, "Can you believe that people object to this word being spoken from the pulpit?" From what I can tell, he has not been invited back to speak in those conferences.
 
You have a very good point. But no I don't think that is what I was talking about, as I showed in another response.

I wanted to mention how Piper comes across to me. I've been to several "Founders' Conferences" in the early 2000's, in which Piper spoke. He is, to me, overly uninhibited. He seems to delight in shock-value in some of his axiomatic claims, and other single statements, though not so much his statements that are intended AS Theological Doctrine. I was in one session where he brought up something that in most churches was a no-no to mention, (concerning sexual activity), and said something like, "Can you believe that people object to this word being spoken from the pulpit?" From what I can tell, he has not been invited back to speak in those conferences.
Charismatic covers a lot of there are moderate, extreme, and downright crazy congregations. But to link a theology Reformed Charisnatic, I think they would have to be letting go of some of the systematics that went into Reformed theology. Kind of like a church called Reformed Lutheran I know of who had George Tiller serving in the church. He was shot dead in the lobby one Sunday. Tiller, in case you didn't know, was the country's number one baby killer, aborting fetuses in late term. You could see the smoke coming from the stack of his depository furnace, the ash falling on the city.

As to Piper, I have not read much of his work or listened to it. But I know he is considered a pillar, if you will, of Calvinism today.
 
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