The Fall of Man

[Soyeong]

Can you explain for me your view of the Fall of Man and the Gravity of sin, thanks.

Why did God want to deny people to have the knowledge of good and evil to people? Did God want a world of sociopaths who don't know right from wrong? Wouldn't people be better off with this knowledge? Did God secretly want Adam and Eve to have this knowledge and set them up? God appeared genuinely angry with Adam and Eve and punished them severely. Why would God punish them if they were unaware that they had done something wrong? So Adam and Eve must have had known that it was right to obey God and wrong to disobey Him, so they must have had knowledge of right from wrong before eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, but if they had the knowledge that it was supposed to give them, then what was the purpose of eating from it?

Adam and Eve must have had understanding of right and wrong, but did not call it knowledge of good and evil before eating from the tree, and doing that transformed their previous understanding of right and wrong into knowledge of good and evil, which was knowledge of true and false.

The Tree of life was located in the middle of the Garden (Genesis 2:9) and Adam and Eve were not restricted from eating from it, so it would have only been a matter of time before they had done that, and this was good, so why did it only become a problem after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge?

In Genesis 3:24, God placed cherubim to guard the way back to the Tree of Life, the other time that we see cherubim is over the Ark of the Covenant to guard the Torah, which is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it (Proverbs 3:18). A guard can either block entry or provide escort. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were are a crossroads between eternal life and mortality, where eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life, while eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads where Moses presents an choice between life and death, life and a blessing for choosing obedience to the Torah or death and a curse for choosing disobedience, so choose life! Moreover, Romans 10:5-8 says that our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim.

There are a number of instances where Eve's desire influenced her perception (Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement so that we can't be sure in our own eyes if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is how knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of good and evil. The entire Bible is about the way to reject the damage done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and choosing instead to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have the same choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong gained from eating of the Tree of Knowledge by doing what is right in our own eyes, or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false through obeying what He has instructed in the Torah, which is choosing to eat from the Tree of Life instead, which is why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28) and why those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14).

 

[Josheb]

Why did God want to deny people to have the knowledge of good and evil to people?

He did not prohibit Adam and Eve from knowing good and evil. He prohibited them from knowing the specific kind of knowledge about good and evil they would experience through that specific act of disobedience. This is a very important distinction to be made.

Did God want a world of sociopaths who don't know right from wrong?

(josh assumes that's rhetorical)

Wouldn't people be better off with this knowledge?

No.

Did God secretly want Adam and Eve to have this knowledge and set them up?

No.

God appeared genuinely angry with Adam and Eve and punished them severely.

Seems both correct and obviously so but let's not assume things not yet in evidence. Please support statement that with scripture.

Why would God punish them if they were unaware that they had done something wrong?

Much of what God announced could be understood as simple cause-and-effect consequences and not additional punishment(s) added by God. It is, for example, completely within the realm of cause and effect for Adam to have to worker harder for a harvest once he'd abdicated his role of steward, and all the more so once discharged from the garden (much easier to grow produce in a prepared garden than in a desolate wilderness). Als completely natural for Eve to yearn after her husband given what had transpired. God was informing them of those naturally occurring consequences, not proactively punishing them. There are some punishments stated, but it is not all punishment, imo.

So Adam and Eve must have had known that it was right to obey God and wrong to disobey Him, so they must have had knowledge of right from wrong before eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, but if they had the knowledge that it was supposed to give them, then what was the purpose of eating from it? Adam and Eve must have had understanding of right and wrong, but did not call it knowledge of good and evil before eating from the tree, and doing that transformed their previous understanding of right and wrong into knowledge of good and evil, which was knowledge of true and false.

Yep. They knew good and therefore could recognize that which was not-good simply because it was not good. That is not the same kind of knowledge of good and evil that ensues in disobedience. The two are completely different kinds of knowledge. Sort of like the five blind guys describing an elephant from five different points of touch.

The Tree of life was located in the middle of the Garden (Genesis 2:9) and Adam and Eve were not restricted from eating from it, so it would have only been a matter of time before they had done that, and this was good, so why did it only become a problem after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge?

Point of clarification: the tree of life AND the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were both in the middle of the garden. So, while standing looking at the knowledge tree they were also able to see the life tree. Yes, in all likelihood, or at least well within the realm of reason they eventually would have eaten fruit from all the fruit-bearing trees. Being mortal, eating from the tree of life was also preferred .


Gotta go. I'll reply to the rest of the op later.

 

[Mantis]

Proverbs 2:18
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits

This would be the only one that I saw that really could mean spiritual annihilation. The death of spirits is pretty straight forward. If your spirit is dead you don’t exist. But I don’t know. All I know is that Jesus loves us more than is even imaginable. I don’t think he wants a single soul in Hell, annihilated, or whatever. I personally wouldn’t be surprised if he saves everyone after meeting him and feeling his love. I was on the road to self destruction and when he called my name and spoke I realized I am safe and loved more that any human on earth could ever love me.

Jesus is life.

There are a lot of warning of Hell so it must be real. I just don’t know why they changed the words. I mean Gahena(sp) was a trash dump no? And we know of the separation in paradise with the gap or whatever that sinners can’t cross. Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[Mantis]

Proverbs 2:18
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits

This would be the only one that I saw that really could mean spiritual annihilation. The death of spirits is pretty straight forward. If your spirit is dead you don’t exist. But I don’t know. All I know is that Jesus loves us more than is even imaginable. I don’t think he wants a single soul in Hell, annihilated, or whatever. I personally wouldn’t be surprised if he saves everyone after meeting him and feeling his love. I was on the road to self destruction and when he called my name and spoke I realized I am safe and loved more that any human on earth could ever love me.

Jesus is life.

There are a lot of warning of Hell so it must be real. I just don’t know why they changed the words. I mean Gahena(sp) was a trash dump no? And we know of the separation in paradise with the gap or whatever that sinners can’t cross. Abraham’s Bosom.

Oops I replied to the wrong thread

 

[Josheb]

In Genesis 3:24, God placed cherubim to guard the way back to the Tree of Life, the other time that we see cherubim is over the Ark of the Covenant to guard the Torah, which is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it (Proverbs 3:18). A guard can either block entry or provide escort. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were are a crossroads between eternal life and mortality, where eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life, while eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads where Moses presents an choice between life and death, life and a blessing for choosing obedience to the Torah or death and a curse for choosing disobedience, so choose life! Moreover, Romans 10:5-8 says that our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim.

This is good and correct.

However, something important has been left out: the tree of life is Christ, not the fruit of some tree or a written code of morality. Both testify to Christ (Jn. 5:39; Lk. 24:27,44).

There are a number of instances where Eve's desire influenced her perception (Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement so that we can't be sure in our own eyes if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is how knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of good and evil.

This sentence begs the question of Eve's clouding desires, and it needs to evidence desire-clouded judgment before it can be deemed true, veracious and valid. Remember: Eve was good and only good. She was sinless and there was nothing sinful (including her desires) dweilling within her. When scripture states Eve, "saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise..." that is an accurate report of her observations of the fruit. That fruit was good for food, a delight to the eyes and desirable to make one wise. He observation is not clouded. The text does not mention her desires at all; it mentions the desirability of the fruit!

The problem is even though the fruit was good for food AND a delight to the eyes, AND desirable for wisdom..... it was prohibited.

That and that alone is the salient point. Eve sinned before she was sinful. So too did Adam. In Romans 5, Paul makes it clear that there was nothing about the fruit and nothing about the human that causes sin except the one act of disobedience. Eve could have correctly see the fruit was good for food, correctly observed is delightfulness to the eyes, and correctly acknowledged its desirability to make one wise.... and then walked away. Nothing untoward would have happened had she not disobeyed God and eaten from the forbidden tree. Furthermore, Paull attributes the entrance of sin and death into the world to Adam and NOT Eve, even though, "the woman being deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:14). Eve sinned first but it was through the disobedience of one man* that sin and death entered the world. What 1 Timothy 2 also make clear is that Eve was deceived, but Adam was not.*

The entire Bible is about the way to reject the damage done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and choosing instead to eat from the Tree of Life.

If that is intended to meanthe entire Bible is about Jesus, then that is correct, but if anything else is being asserted as the tree of life about which the entire Bible is about, then that is incorrect.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have the same choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong gained from eating of the Tree of Knowledge by doing what is right in our own eyes, or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false through obeying what He has instructed in the Torah, which is choosing to eat from the Tree of Life instead, which is why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28)

No one comes to Christ unless the Father vigorously draws them to him, and no one comes to the Father except through Christ. Christ, and Christ alone is the only way to God.

...and why those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14).

Because they have washed their robes, not because they did things asserted in this opening post. It says so right in the verse cited.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city.

Revelation 7:9-15
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.


Not a single mention of obedience to any law. The they survived the tribulation AND their robes are made white by the blood of the lamb. If the tribulation is survived and your robes are washed in the blood of Christ then a right to the tree of life and entrance into the city is given; otherwise, obedience absent the shed blood merits nothing. Revelation 22:14 does not apply to those not experiencing the tribulation and that verse should not be ripped from its given context and made to apply to an irrelevant group of people.

































*The Greek here is "anthropou," which literally means "human," or humankind," so it could be a reference to the first female and not the first male, but 1 Cor. 15:22 makes it clear death came through the first male, Adam.
.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why did God want to deny people to have the knowledge of good and evil to people? Did God want a world of sociopaths who don't know right from wrong? Wouldn't people be better off with this knowledge? Did God secretly want Adam and Eve to have this knowledge and set them up? God appeared genuinely angry with Adam and Eve and punished them severely. Why would God punish them if they were unaware that they had done something wrong?

Gen 2:17 covers that, AND the DEATH penalty for transgression, which was applied instantly when the both SINNED.. That they were "Unaware", is pure garbage.

The Tree of life was located in the middle of the Garden (Genesis 2:9) and Adam and Eve were not restricted from eating from it, so it would have only been a matter of time before they had done that, and this was good, so why did it only become a problem after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge?

Why would God desire Spiritually DEAD People to live forever?? And, of coourse the "Plan of salvation" (the gospel) was already in place

There are a number of instances where Eve's desire influenced her perception

Which is detailed under "Temptation" in James 1.

(Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement so that we can't be sure in our own eyes if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is how knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of good and evil. The entire Bible is about the way to reject the
damage done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and choosing instead to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have the same choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong gained from eating of the Tree of Knowledge by doing what is right in our own eyes, or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false through obeying what He has instructed in the Torah, which is choosing to eat from the Tree of Life instead, which is why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28) and why those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14).

So - you're promoting "Salvation by WORKS" instead of being Born Again by FAITH in Jesus' SIN OFFERING. How are YOU doing with your "Sinless living"????

 

[Soyeong]

Gen 2:17 covers that, AND the DEATH penalty for transgression, which was applied instantly when the both SINNED.. That they were "Unaware", is pure garbage.

That doesn't address my questions. If the the point of eating from the Tree of Knowledge was to bring awareness of right and wrong and they had awareness of right and wrong before they had eaten from it, then what was the point of eating from it?

So - you're promoting "Salvation by WORKS" instead of being Born Again by FAITH in Jesus' SIN OFFERING. How are YOU doing with your "Sinless living"????

No. Salvation by works is the position that was are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is not a position that I have promoted. Even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their salvation as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of the law. There can be many goals for doing good works other than in order to earn our salvation as a wage, especially because that was never the goal for which God commanded works, so the fact that we are not required to have done works first in order to earn our salvation does not mean that our salvation does not require us to choose to do works for the goal for which God commanded them.

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God gracious teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to have faith in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That doesn't address my questions. If the the point of eating from the Tree of Knowledge was to bring awareness of right and wrong and they had awareness of right and wrong before they had eaten from it, then what was the point of eating from it?

SO your position is that Adam WAS SO STUPID that neither he, nor his wife were capable of knowing that when God said "Don't do that or you'll die" they weren't aware THAT THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT????

No. Salvation by works is the position that was are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is not a position that I have promoted. Even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their salvation as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of the law. There can be many goals for doing good works other than in order to earn our salvation as a wage, especially because that was never the goal for which God commanded works, so the fact that we are not required to have done works first in order to earn our salvation does not mean that our salvation does not require us to choose to do works for the goal for which God commanded them.

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God gracious teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to have faith in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

So in your opinion "Good Works" produces "FAITH"???

 

[Soyeong]

SO your position is that Adam WAS SO STUPID that neither he, nor his wife were capable of knowing that when God said "Don't do that or you'll die" they weren't aware THAT THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT????

No. I think that they were area, but again if they already had awareness of right and wrong, then what was the purpose of the Tree?

So in your opinion "Good Works" produces "FAITH"???

No. Rather, good works are the way to have faith. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by trusting in what He has instructed. When our desire enters the picture it clouds our judgement so that we can no longer be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean in our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes in accordance with what we gained from eating from the Tree of Knowledge or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, in all our ways and he will make our way straight, which is in accordance with the Tree of Life (Proverbs 3:16-18). The choice to obediently trust in what God has instructed instead of our own understanding is what it means to have faith.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No. I think that they were area, but again if they already had awareness of right and wrong, then what was the purpose of the Tree?

SImple - the tree was nothing of significance, other than that God said DON'T - that DID matter was that Adam tossed God under the Bus, and sided with SATAN against God.

No. Rather, good works are the way to have faith.

Exactly backwards. Biblical FAITH, of its intrinsic NATURE, produces Good Works in born Again people. And "Works will have significance at Jesus' judgement seat of REWARD, and in some way establish our ROLE on God's Kingdom.

 

[Soyeong]

SImple - the tree was nothing of significance, other than that God said DON'T - that DID matter was that Adam tossed God under the Bus, and sided with SATAN against God.

God does not give arbitrary commands, but rather there is purpose behind everything that He specifically chooses to command.

Exactly backwards. Biblical FAITH, of its intrinsic NATURE, produces Good Works in born Again people. And "Works will have significance at Jesus' judgement seat of REWARD, and in some way establish our ROLE on God's Kingdom.

It is equally true that works are the way to have faith and faith is the way to have works. In other words, we become someone who is a doer of the law, someone who has faith, and someone who will be justified all at the same time, and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others.

The Bible repeatedly connects our faith with our works, such as in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God does not give arbitrary commands, but rather there is purpose behind everything that He specifically chooses to command.

TRUE, and the PURPOSE was a test, to "Try" man and establish his nature, and free will. We are "tempted/tested tried" continually in life to determine what we're made of. God doesn't test us WITH SIN, but He DOES test us.

It is equally true that works are the way to have faith and faith is the way to have works.

FALSE. "Works" ARE ALWAYS the result of Biblical FAITH (Heb 11:1). The book of James was written primarily as a TEST for "nominal Christians" by which they could establish whether what they "CALLED FAITH" was actually FAITH at all, or just religious foolishness.

The Bible repeatedly connects our faith with our works

Simply because IF FAITH is really present, works will be the result thereof, and not the other way around.

 

[makesends]

TRUE, and the PURPOSE was a test, to "Try" man and establish his nature, and free will. We are "tempted/tested tried" continually in life to determine what we're made of. God doesn't test us WITH SIN, but He DOES test us.

FALSE. "Works" ARE ALWAYS the result of Biblical FAITH (Heb 11:1). The book of James was written primarily as a TEST for "nominal Christians" by which they could establish whether what they "CALLED FAITH" was actually FAITH at all, or just religious foolishness.

Simply because IF FAITH is really present, works will be the result thereof, and not the other way around.

So what is non-Calvinistic about that?

 

[Soyeong]

TRUE, and the PURPOSE was a test, to "Try" man and establish his nature, and free will. We are "tempted/tested tried" continually in life to determine what we're made of. God doesn't test us WITH SIN, but He DOES test us.

God could have conceivably used any means of testing Adam and Eve, but there was purpose in why God specifically chose to test them in the way that He did. For example, God could have told Adam and Eve that they were permitted to do anything except juggle geese, but there was purpose in what God specifically chose to command them. There was a change that specifically happened because Adam and Eve ate from the tree:

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

So if eating from there Tree caused them to become like God in knowing good and evil, then what was the purpose of eating from the Tree if they were already like God in knowing good from evil before they had eaten from it?

FALSE. "Works" ARE ALWAYS the result of Biblical FAITH (Heb 11:1). The book of James was written primarily as a TEST for "nominal Christians" by which they could establish whether what they "CALLED FAITH" was actually FAITH at all, or just religious foolishness.

In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is also an example of works. In Romans 1:8, Paul spoke about their faith being proclaimed in all of the world and the way to proclaim that someone has faith is by speaking about their works as Hebrews 11 does, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith by his works.

If someone told me that a bridge is safe, then it would be worthless to communicate with my mouth that I have faith in them while communicating with my actions that I refused to have faith in them by refusing to cross it, but rather the way for me to have faith that the bridge is safe is by crossing it.

Simply because IF FAITH is really present, works will be the result thereof, and not the other way around.

I did not say that faith is the result of works or that works are the result of faith, but rather being a doer of works are the way to have faith in the present.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So what is non-Calvinistic about that?

The "Free will" part. Calvinists are "Pre-selected" ("U"), will be Born AGain ("I"), and will persevere till they die physically ("P"). There's NO "Free will" in Calvinism.

 

[makesends]

The "Free will" part. Calvinists are "Pre-selected" ("U"), will be Born AGain ("I"), and will persevere till they die physically ("P"). There's NO "Free will" in Calvinism.

Even if you define "free will" as uncaused, as you seem to be doing there, your reasoning here doesn't come to that conclusion. Oh, and by the way —the Elect are preselected, will be Born Again, and will persevere. Now I'd be interested to hear your take on where the will is violated by those three things.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Why did God want to deny people to have the knowledge of good and evil to people?

He didn't. God created the man and woman sinful, that is, "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.] The Greek word is "harmatia" translated in the KJV as "sin."
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Although man was created sinful, and later we learn that the Law or Command against something shows us we are sinners before we sin (Rom. 7:7ff) the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was only there to give man the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness. There was no 'innocence' in the Garden. Sin comes from sinner. Giving the man the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness was a necessary part in the plan of God in creating a man and from this man call out a people to Himself.
Before the Command "thou shalt not" in the Garden man only had KNOWLEDGE of good.
Until the command came and it slew him (Rom. 7:11.)

Did God want a world of sociopaths who don't know right from wrong?

Only by virtue of His creating a sinful man did God "want" sociopaths 'who don't know right from wrong' and in doing so eventually gave man the KNOWLEDGE of his sociopathic sinful condition.

Wouldn't people be better off with this knowledge? Did God secretly want Adam and Eve to have this knowledge and set them up?

God is 'playing' a card game in which He knows what's in every player's hand. In this circumstance it is impossible to 'beat the house.'

God appeared genuinely angry with Adam and Eve and punished them severely. Why would God punish them if they were unaware that they had done something wrong? So Adam and Eve must have had known that it was right to obey God and wrong to disobey Him, so they must have had knowledge of right from wrong before eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, but if they had the knowledge that it was supposed to give them, then what was the purpose of eating from it?

The concept of the hot oven comes into play here.
The oven is hot. You are told to not touch it lest you get burned. The knowledge of the restriction to not touch it is not the knowledge of getting 'burned' but only the instruction. Touching it and getting burned is the knowledge.
The purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of evil that was his creative make-up.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@Soyeong

Adam and Eve must have had understanding of right and wrong, but did not call it knowledge of good and evil before eating from the tree, and doing that transformed their previous understanding of right and wrong into knowledge of good and evil, which was knowledge of true and false.

All they knew was "good." Everything they may have done - whether it was offensive to God - was good for there was at the time no restriction against it. Until the Tree. Then in the eating of the Tree did they gain the knowledge of evil.

The Tree of life was located in the middle of the Garden (Genesis 2:9) and Adam and Eve were not restricted from eating from it, so it would have only been a matter of time before they had done that, and this was good, so why did it only become a problem after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge?

There was no 'problem.' Only purpose. God's purpose. But IMHO there was to be no time in which to eventually get to the tree and eat its fruit for they might have already eaten of it, which makes it possible that the command of "Thou shalt not" restricting them from eating it may have come under the methodology of James instruction in 1:14.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

The Greek word for "tempted" is "test" as per Strong's.
This was the same "testing" Jesus endured in the desert in Matthew's account of His 'temptation.' There are not two ways of being tempted but one. And the temptation that Jesus endured in the testing of His human nature side of Him is the same testing we endure/undergo when we are tempted of our sinful side.

Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were are a crossroads between eternal life and mortality, where eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life, while eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal.

The Trees were regular natural trees. There was no 'power' in any of them to give mortality or eternal life. Only God Himself is the Author and Giver of eternal life.
The definition of "sin" is death, and the definition of "death" is sin. It mattered not whether the man (and woman) ate from the Trees or not they would have still died eventually (eventually died.)

Moreover, Romans 10:5-8 says that our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim.

Paul is writing to Jewish Christians at Rome who are ALREADY saved. This is not a formula for salvation in Rom. 10:5-8. Paul is quoting the OT and ENCOURAGING the Jewish believers to remain steadfast and obedient.

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Dt. 30:14.

There are a number of instances where Eve's desire influenced her perception (Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement so that we can't be sure in our own eyes if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is how knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of good and evil.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

The word "lust" is the Greek word [Strong's G#1939] from (G#1937) (epithumeo); a longing (especially for what is forbidden.)
NOTE: I added Strong's addition in parenthesis but as a rule I prefer to do my own thinking rather than have someone's usage and application of a defined word to "lead the witness" as they say and tell me HOW to apply a word's meaning to a circumstance or situation. To me the word merely means "longing" and it doesn't have to be something 'restricted.'
I don't think any desire(s) we have clouds our judgment. I think our judgments cloud our desires.

The entire Bible is about the way to reject the damage done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and choosing instead to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have the same choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong gained from eating of the Tree of Knowledge by doing what is right in our own eyes, or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false through obeying what He has instructed in the Torah, which is choosing to eat from the Tree of Life instead, which is why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28) and why those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14).

The inheritance of eternal life is only one thing: covenant with God (which includes communion with Jesus.)

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Lk. 18:18–23.

IN MY MOST HUMBLE OPINION:
#1. Jesus Christ/Messiah KNOWS He is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant and the prophecies in the OT.
#2. This certain ruler is correct to think of eternal life as an inheritance as per the Abrahamic Covenant.
#3. Jesus directs the man to the Mosaic Covenant (vs. 20)
#4. In Mark 10:21 it says that "Jesus beholding him loved him." Although it may appear that obedience to the Law may be required to inherit eternal life, but it is not. If Jesus loves 'you' He will save 'you,'
if Jesus doesn't love 'you' He will not save 'you.' Salvation is of the LORD.
#5. Back in Luke Jesus tells the man he lacks one thing and gives him three things to do.
(a) sell what you have.
(b) give it to the poor.
(c) "come, follow me."

Which one of the three things did this man lack? He lacked following Jesus. In this man's mind there was in front of him a Jewish Rabbi everyone was talking about. Healer, Messiah, Deliverer, King. So, if this man was the prophesied Messiah and King then exactly what effect would He have on the covenants (Judaism) and the promises of God? So, the man went directly to Jesus to ask. Jesus is not telling the man to obey the Law, He is telling, commanding rather, to "follow me."

And as a command - not a request - the man eventually was saved. Possibly after he sold his possessions, gave to the poor, and "followed me" in which it is possible that obedience to Jesus - not the Law - was the inheritance as per the Abrahamic Covenant and may have been among the 3000 Jews saved on Pentecost.

IMHO, that is.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Even if you define "free will" as uncaused, as you seem to be doing there, your reasoning here doesn't come to that conclusion. Oh, and by the way —the Elect are preselected, will be Born Again, and will persevere. Now I'd be interested to hear your take on where the will is violated by those three things.

Chuckle!! "Will" (free or otherwise) doesn't even enter into the Calvinist equasion!!!

As far as the "Reformed" are concerned, you're nothing but a pre-programmed robot, executing a program that was loaded before the creation ("U"). You do what you're programmed to do ("I"), and have no "choice" in the matter. ("P").

 

[makesends]

Chuckle!! "Will" (free or otherwise) doesn't even enter into the Calvinist equasion!!!

Certainly it does! It is by one's fallen will that one rejects and opposes and cannot please God. And it is by the regenerated will that one is able to actually repent, and to actually submit to God, and it is by the regenerated will that one pursues Christ.

As far as the "Reformed" are concerned, you're nothing but a pre-programmed robot, executing a program that was loaded before the creation ("U"). You do what you're programmed to do ("I"), and have no "choice" in the matter. ("P").

That is a strawman. I think even you know better than that. That is your filter overlaid on what you take them to be saying.

In fact, it is only by the power of God that one's choice is established. You pretend that Reformed Theology has God encroaching on default fact, when, actually, GOD IS the default fact. You assemble your "equasion" with God as one of the variables. God does not fit equations. The equation must fit God.