how do you know?
how do you know what is and what is not scripture? much less the authentic interpretation?
The Ark of the covenant!
- Thread starter donadams
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how do you know what is and what is not scripture? much less the authentic interpretation?
heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
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Common sense, for one thing, instead of corrupted men's notions (magisterium, for eg), and superstition.
And, it is usually, per common sense, easier to rule out what some want to claim a passage means, than it is to articulate what it means. The RCC makes so many outlandish claims, and their articulations are so sloughed, double-spoken and vague, often even standing on both sides of the fence, that common sense says, "uh, no".
Careful exegesis according to logical rules, is just common sense. But blind following of layer upon layer of blind guides, is falsehood.
We don't follow Calvin, nor any of our preachers. We do follow Paul as he followed Christ, and that, only according to Scripture's articulations.
I hope you can see which of these is a firm foundation and which is shifting sand.
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If you believe scripture you would believe the apostolic church!
Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12
The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14
Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3
The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17
Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6
The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15
The sects of errors are the darkness of Thick black scales of fundamentalism!
All the tradition of men!
Sacred scripture teaches that many of the same things apply to the apostolic church as it does Christ!
Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23
Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15
Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19
acts 16:17
Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!
Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1
The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15
The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you...
where was this in scripture when Paul actually said it?
was it authoritative?
and Philip
acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
is this authoritative?
or the tradition of Men?
recorded in scripture yes but years later!
Acts 13:5
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God...
(not the new testament it was not written for 30 plus years and not a canon approved by papal authority until the council of Rome 381-2)
acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
(not scripture alone)
thks
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You've pasted this before, including the logical leap from the Apostles and the New Testament Church, by means of something unproven you claim, that apostolic progression results in the modern day RCC alone. Your whole line of reasoning depends on that unproven assumption (whether you realize it or not). You jump from what the Bible does say, to what the RCC uses from it.
Waxing poetic, eloquent and vehement proves nothing.
so it's arbitrary
according my private judgement
my common sense?
dan 13 the faith story of Susana:
is that sacred scripture
is the account of the prophet Jeremias sacred scripture?
2 maccabees 2:1-8
1 Now it is found in the descriptions of Jeremias the prophet, that he commanded them that went into captivity, to take the fire, as it hath been signified, and how he gave charge to them that were carried away into captivity.
2 And how he gave them the law that they should not forget the commandments of the Lord, and that they should not err in their minds, seeing the idols of gold, and silver, and the ornaments of them.
3 And with other such like speeches, he exhorted them that they would not remove the law from their heart.
4 It was also contained in the same writing, how the prophet, being warned by God, commanded that the tabernacle and the ark should accompany him, till he came forth to the mountain where Moses went up, and saw the inheritance of God.
5 And when Jeremias came thither he found a hollow cave: and he carried in thither the tabernacle, and the ark, and the altar of incense, and so stopped the door.
6 Then some of them that followed him, came up to mark the place: but they could not find it.
7 And when Jeremias perceived it, he blamed them, saying: The place shall be unknown, till God gather together the congregation of the people, and receive them to mercy.
8 And then the Lord will shew these things, and the majesty of the Lord shall appear, and there shall be a cloud as it was also shewed to Moses, and he shewed it when Solomon prayed that the place might be sanctified to the great God.
and this prophecy was fulfilled in Mary Lk 1:35
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
thks
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Two answers to that: Good sense is not arbitrary, and, the last 2000 years of hand-me-down has been self-evidently full of error.
Further, the common sense I described is about use of Scripture, not use of men's notions.
You attempt to show by Scripture that man (the magisterium) has authority over scripture, by calling the magisterium The Church. It's bad enough that the whole line of levels from priest to pope are given authority by their attendants, but the sloughing of meaning concerning just what the Church is, demonstrates the error of the whole concept. The circular thinking claims the buck stops with the magisterium, but then claims the buck stops with Scripture. Round and round.
Protestantism Orthodoxy depends on Scripture, not men, for final authority. In fact, so much so that there can be no human authority over the facts and over the consciences of men, but Christ and the Word of God. Not Mary, not the 'saints', not the council, not the magisterium, not the watchtower, nothing.
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Of course we compare the Bible to all teachings.
Are you and the Catholic church the authority on this?
Sola Scriptura.
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This is a lot of crazy.
Do you really believe the CC has the power to forgive sins as you quoted?
Not sure how you come to that conclusion in Luke 5:20
Do you understand what John 20:23 in context is teaching?
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Remember, again, this line of reasoning of yours depends upon a consistent line of succession. You have not shown it, but at most, asserted it. By now, I am confident, there is no such line, even if it could be proven that such a line would result in the RCC-only doctrine that the RCC asserts.
handed down is biblical
matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 15:30
So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
2 thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered untothe saints.
then why 30,000 protestant denominations all teaching different errors all claiming the HS and scripture as the only infallible authority
John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
are the 7 books and extra chapters in Esther and daniel sacred scripture?
what did the eunuch compare to in acts 8?
He had scripture but no authentic meaning or understanding until God sent Him an apostle to TEACH (tradition) Him the meaning and baptism
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (grace of justification in the sacrament of baptism) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)
thanks
in context scripture is protestant
out of context it's catholic
heard this before!
Lk 1:37
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Yes, back in the Bible times. But the authority rests in the Scriptures, which are completed. No other authority is warranted.
You still have not shown how that authority has been passed down through the ages to the RCC
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That statement by itself demonstrates that the denominations are not the authority, but the Word of God alone. No logical inconsistency there.
I'm not sure how you think this applies to the conversation. --That is, I don't see how they demonstrate that the authority of Jesus belongs to the RCC.
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makesends said:
Remember, again, this line of reasoning of yours depends upon a consistent line of succession. You have not shown it, but at most, asserted it. By now, I am confident, there is no such line, even if it could be proven that such a line would result in the RCC-only doctrine that the RCC asserts.
I'm not sure why you wrote that reference.
If it is to answer the lack of a demonstrated line of apostolic succession, I have no way of applying it. Maybe you can show me why you brought that reference up.
But if it is to answer what I said, that IF you could demonstrate a line of apostolic succession, it would still not prove the "RCC-only" doctrine, then I don't see how it does that either.
But if it is neither, then why did you bring it up? I'm also curious why you didn't quote the verse. Did you think that if I looked it up myself I would somehow be convinced you had a worthy use of it?
Remember, again, this line of reasoning of yours depends upon a consistent line of succession. You have not shown it, but at most, asserted it. By now, I am confident, there is no such line, even if it could be proven that such a line would result in the RCC-only doctrine that the RCC asserts.
Lk 1:37 "For no word from God will ever fail."
I'm not sure why you wrote that reference.
If it is to answer the lack of a demonstrated line of apostolic succession, I have no way of applying it. Maybe you can show me why you brought that reference up.
But if it is to answer what I said, that IF you could demonstrate a line of apostolic succession, it would still not prove the "RCC-only" doctrine, then I don't see how it does that either.
But if it is neither, then why did you bring it up? I'm also curious why you didn't quote the verse. Did you think that if I looked it up myself I would somehow be convinced you had a worthy use of it?
