The Apostate Church: New Apostolic Reformation

[Arial]

I will post a couple of links that give the history and beliefs of this movement, and will pull a few quotes from them. It has always existed within the heresies of Christ's church in one form or another, but began invading it more and more in the 19th century and became full blown, almost overtaking all of Christianity in the 1990's with the father of the movement, C. Peter Wagner.

Though he claims that it is the devil who kept the things taught in NAR hidden from the church, it is truly the invasion of his teaching that is the work of the spiritual powers of darkness reaching into Christ's church, to wreck havoc on it. However we are assured that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church. And the only reason that is certain is because God saves his people, his elect, by his own hand and power, placing them firmly in Christ. So there are no doubt many true believers within the NAR movement, even though they are deceived on many levels. The teaching sounds good and right, and that is the danger of it. It actually teaches the new Christian, those who have been truly converted by God in the new birth and placed in Christ through faith, to not be discerning. To not test the spirits against the word of God, and so they never become discerning. If you read the links and you will see that Wagner actually taught against bringing theology into the church, and therefore against theologically sound doctrine as is given us in the NT.

Another danger is that it not a registered denomination but reaches its tentacles into all of them, most prominently in the charismatic and Pentecostal movements. It is not organized and yet is also based on some of the same heresies of the Catholic church. That of apostolic succession and the authority of these self appointed apostles to be the sole interpreters of the scriptures.

6 Things to Know about the New Apostolic Reformation

4 – Theocracy​

This is the way dominion will be achieved on the earth. Here is another quote from C. Peter Wagner. "The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society."

Extra-Biblical Revelation​

According to NAR prognosticators, God is still providing revelation that flows outside of what God has already revealed in his word. Now according to C. Peter Wagner, these revelations have to be in agreement with Scripture, but you will discover that is often not the case.

6 – Supernatural Signs and Wonders​

Within NAR circles and to be fair other charismatic movements, miracles, signs, and wonders are still in operation and viable for the church today. If you are moving in an apostolic office, then these miraculous signs and wonders should follow you.

modernreformation.org/resources/essays/the-framing-of-a-movement-defining-the-new-apostolic-reformation





Perhaps the hardest part of understanding the NAR’s theology is that it devalues theology and theological thinking. According to C. Peter Wagner, who was in many ways the godfather of the NAR, the leaders within the movement “have little or no desire to traverse many of the traditional pathways laid down by professional academic theologians.” Wagner continues, “I have never offered a course in systematic theology simply because there would be virtually no demand for it among our in-service, apostolically oriented student body.”

I hope these links will be read and studied.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, lets see where this goes...Lets start with the Seven Mountains...

"Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society."

I basically agree with the above, that is, as Christians we should be present in all of the above. For example if the Christians dominated the school boards we wouldn't be having the problems with CRT, trans, marxist concepts and so on. The same could be said for the other mountains.

I pretty much disagree with the motive of NAR. If I've read and understand them correctly......when the Christians take over the "mountains" only then can Jesus Christ return.
I pretty much see that as not happening in that fashion when I read the book of Revelation. Revelation is the future and the future for the world is pretty grim.

 

[Arial]

Well, lets see where this goes...Lets start with the Seven Mountains...

"Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society."

I basically agree with the above, that is, as Christians we should be present in all of the above. For example if the Christians dominated the school boards we wouldn't be having the problems with CRT, trans, marxist concepts and so on. The same could be said for the other mountains.

I pretty much disagree with the motive of NAR. If I've read and understand them correctly......when the Christians take over the "mountains" only then can Jesus Christ return.
I pretty much see that as not happening in that fashion when I read the book of Revelation. Revelation is the future and the future for the world is pretty grim.

Please don't bring the Book of Revelation and End times into the thread. Your beliefs on that do not have to be brought into every discussion. It is something that can be left unsaid. Thank you.

The Bible never tells us that Christians are to dominate all aspects of society. It says we are to be a light to the world. And your agreement shows just How deceptive and subtle the NAR is. And how it permeates our thinking to the extent that we do not even know it is there, let alone that the premise is wrong.

It is good that Christian values, the precepts taught us in the NT under the New Covenant, (though they were there in the old covenant too, but through a legal code)are what we express in our lives, and hold to, whether we are a politician or an educator, in our families and business, if we are an artist, a writer, an entertainer or work in media. It is the same mandate given to Israel that they threw over when they demanded a king like the other nations. They were meant to be a light unto the world and a witness of the one true and living God. Christianity is not meant to be a dominating government body that controls the whole world through laws and tyranny. (That was also one of the mistakes of the RCC.)

It is good to vote and even a duty. But a duty to country and not a duty mandated by God. Some really bad presidents would have been elected if our sole reason for voting for someone was "Are they a Christian?" of "Where do they stand on abortion?" instead of their qualifications to do the job and do it in the best interests of the people they serve. The NAR stance of taking over the world for Christ is a threat to democracy. Fortunately they are doomed to fail because it is not God's plan or purpose.

 

[CrowCross]

Please don't bring the Book of Revelation and End times into the thread. Your beliefs on that do not have to be brought into every discussion. It is something that can be left unsaid. Thank you.

The Bible never tells us that Christians are to dominate all aspects of society. It says we are to be a light to the world. And your agreement shows just How deceptive and subtle the NAR is. And how it permeates our thinking to the extent that we do not even know it is there, let alone that the premise is wrong.

Face Palm....Oh PLLLLLLease Arial.

I said there is nothing wrong with christian involvement in what NAR calls the "mountains". What I have said is that the NAR's will not achieve their goal because the future Revelation presents isn't written that way.

It is good that Christian values, the precepts taught us in the NT under the New Covenant, (though they were there in the old covenant too, but through a legal code)are what we express in our lives, and hold to, whether we are a politician or an educator, in our families and business, if we are an artist, a writer, an entertainer or work in media. It is the same mandate given to Israel that they threw over when they demanded a king like the other nations. They were meant to be a light unto the world and a witness of the one true and living God. Christianity is not meant to be a dominating government body that controls the whole world through laws and tyranny. (That was also one of the mistakes of the RCC.)

It is good to vote and even a duty. But a duty to country and not a duty mandated by God. Some really bad presidents would have been elected if our sole reason for voting for someone was "Are they a Christian?" of "Where do they stand on abortion?" instead of their qualifications to do the job and do it in the best interests of the people they serve. The NAR stance of taking over the world for Christ is a threat to democracy. Fortunately they are doomed to fail because it is not God's plan or purpose.

Fortunately they are doomed to fail because it is not God's plan or purpose......

 

[Arial]

.

 

[Arial]

Face Palm....Oh PLLLLLLease Arial.

I said there is nothing wrong with christian involvement in what NAR calls the "mountains". What I have said is that the NAR's will not achieve their goal because the future Revelation presents isn't written that way.

Fortunately they are doomed to fail because it is not God's plan or purpose......

Which is what I said.

 

[TATII]

I hope these links will be read and studied.

I have been watching the NAR since 1999...I read some of their books...went to some of their conferences in the early 2000's and met with a number of their apostles...personally. I was never apart of the NAR nor any church that was...there were however a couple of prophets and apostles among them that were indeed called, anointed and empowered by the Lord Yahshua...I looked them up.

I saw a sort of blending with what I would call the "prophetic movement" of the early 2000's as well. Some of the teachers in this reformation were definitely anointed of God...for a time...and then things began to splinter when the men began to think they were "greater" than they actually were...as I interpret it.

"The Apostate Church: New Apostolic Reformation"...in terms of the "Apostate Church" NAR is/was another form of doctrine that seemed bent on making a Kingdom of God out of a reformed earthly kingdom typically America...which is how I initially understood that they were moving in the wrong direction. They have a strong connection to "Christian Nationalism"...much like the typical apostate church today.

Interestingly enough however...they managed to integrate themselves into the MAGA scene...in some of these NAR circles they are saying that Speaker of the House Mike Johnson is indeed an NAR apostle.

Arial...what we are seeing here is not at all unusual of the for the Babylonian harlot...she has been sleeping with the kings since at least the 4th century.

Tatwo...

 

[Arial]

.there were however a couple of prophets and apostles among them that were indeed called, anointed and empowered by the Lord Yahshua...I looked them up.

How do you know that they were anointed and empowered by the Lord?

 

[TATII]

How do you know that they were anointed and empowered by the Lord?

The Spirit bears witness.

Tatwo...

 

[Arial]

The Spirit bears witness.

Tatwo...

What does that mean? How does he do that?

 

[CrowCross]

I ran across this in an article this morning.....

NAR leaders teach that modern-day apostles and prophets, and their Christian followers are meant to take dominion over governments and other institutions of cultural influence to speed the day when a triumphant church will rule and reign with a returning Christ.

One of the fastest-growing false teachings in the church today is called by various names: Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Reconstructionism, and the Restoration Movement. It is an effort to use the church to make the world perfect for our Lord’s return.

 

[Josheb]

I ran across this in an article this morning.....

NAR leaders teach that modern-day apostles and prophets, and their Christian followers are meant to take dominion over governments and other institutions of cultural influence to speed the day when a triumphant church will rule and reign with a returning Christ.

One of the fastest-growing false teachings in the church today is called by various names: Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Reconstructionism, and the Restoration Movement. It is an effort to use the church to make the world perfect for our Lord’s return.

I truly liked Post #2. The seven arenas within society should have a prominent Christian presence and Christians need not be NAR to hold that viewpoint or act accordingly. Post 11, however, overgeneralizes. Dispensational Premillennialism started out as a Restoration Movement and many congregations and sects within DPism still are restorationist. We hear it anytime one of its leaders says the Church is corrupt and in need of returning to New Testament era Christianity (so come follow them ). Similarly, there are many forms of Dominionism. Not all Dominionists are Seven Mountains Doms. Dominionist Reconstructionists are not theocratic. Recons are not interested in establishing a theocracy (they teach that was a Jewish perversion that resulted from the Jews rejecting God as their king and elevating the priesthood above a monarchy God never wanted). Recons are theonomic, not theocratic. Seven Mountains Dominionists are different from Reconstructionist Dominionists. Anyone who believes Genesis 1:28 is still to be pursued is a dominionist. That verse has been called the "dominion mandate" for centuries, long before modern Dominionism arose. The same can be said of anyone who believes the Great Commission is a command all Christians should still be obeying. Not all Dominionist or Restorationists seek to make the world perfect for the Lord's return. Modern futurists, for example, expect to be removed from the planet before Jesus returns. They expect the world to go to hell in a handbasket and the only restoration that will occur is the restoration of those in Christ. On the other end of that spectrum are the Recons who say the achievement of a Christian state will usher in Christ's return but the world won't be perfect (just mostly perfect ).

My point is that the NAR is different. It is dominionist, but it's not representative of all Dominionism. There are plenty of differences between the NAR and groups with overlapping viewpoints. I happen to believe the dominion mandate and great commission are still expected of Christians, theonomy is a valid, fully scriptural concept, but I do not identify with any of the groups listed so far. I've read them in their own words (not just the second-hand reports of critics) and said, "No."

 

[Mr GLee]

I will post a couple of links that give the history and beliefs of this movement, and will pull a few quotes from them. It has always existed within the heresies of Christ's church in one form or another, but began invading it more and more in the 19th century and became full blown, almost overtaking all of Christianity in the 1990's with the father of the movement, C. Peter Wagner.

Though he claims that it is the devil who kept the things taught in NAR hidden from the church, it is truly the invasion of his teaching that is the work of the spiritual powers of darkness reaching into Christ's church, to wreck havoc on it. However we are assured that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church. And the only reason that is certain is because God saves his people, his elect, by his own hand and power, placing them firmly in Christ. So there are no doubt many true believers within the NAR movement, even though they are deceived on many levels. The teaching sounds good and right, and that is the danger of it. It actually teaches the new Christian, those who have been truly converted by God in the new birth and placed in Christ through faith, to not be discerning. To not test the spirits against the word of God, and so they never become discerning. If you read the links and you will see that Wagner actually taught against bringing theology into the church, and therefore against theologically sound doctrine as is given us in the NT.

Another danger is that it not a registered denomination but reaches its tentacles into all of them, most prominently in the charismatic and Pentecostal movements. It is not organized and yet is also based on some of the same heresies of the Catholic church. That of apostolic succession and the authority of these self appointed apostles to be the sole interpreters of the scriptures.

6 Things to Know about the New Apostolic Reformation

4 – Theocracy​

This is the way dominion will be achieved on the earth. Here is another quote from C. Peter Wagner. "The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society."

Extra-Biblical Revelation​

According to NAR prognosticators, God is still providing revelation that flows outside of what God has already revealed in his word. Now according to C. Peter Wagner, these revelations have to be in agreement with Scripture, but you will discover that is often not the case.

6 – Supernatural Signs and Wonders​

Within NAR circles and to be fair other charismatic movements, miracles, signs, and wonders are still in operation and viable for the church today. If you are moving in an apostolic office, then these miraculous signs and wonders should follow you.

modernreformation.org/resources/essays/the-framing-of-a-movement-defining-the-new-apostolic-reformation





Perhaps the hardest part of understanding the NAR’s theology is that it devalues theology and theological thinking. According to C. Peter Wagner, who was in many ways the godfather of the NAR, the leaders within the movement “have little or no desire to traverse many of the traditional pathways laid down by professional academic theologians.” Wagner continues, “I have never offered a course in systematic theology simply because there would be virtually no demand for it among our in-service, apostolically oriented student body.”

I hope these links will be read and studied.

I would offer.

The idea of supernatural signs and wonders makes it easy to see the workings of Satan with all power to deceive, the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, marvel after as oral traditions of dying mankind as if it was true prophecy.

It is sin against the adding or subtracting from the perfect. A violation of the law not to add or subtract from one word (Deuteronomy 4:2) it can change all the commandments given a new authority (lying signs}

Signs metaphors in parables follow prophecy, they do not lead. Seeing is not exercising faith the invisible things of Christ labor of love working in us in us

Many have been proven wrong when drinking literal poison or tried to raise the dead by making baby noises as if it the work of the gospel

Satan working overtime today. In effect saying I heard voice, Lo is Christ he is in the desert I had a dream made a noise falling backward slain the Spirit. . ETC

Mark 16:17-19;And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(the gospel) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing(false prophecy) it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands (preach the gospel )on the sick, and they shall recover.

Lying signs began to gain power through the charismatic sign and wonder false doctrine. The lie apostolic anything

Destroy the meaning of one word Apostle seen sent with prophecy

Not highly venerable dying sinners that lord it over the faith or understanding of the non-venerable. pew warmers or its show time feast your eyes

Apostles with no other meaning added sent messengers (the ones with beautiful feet). ..( Fed X, UPS, Amazon. Pony Express. Air mail. . .Mr GLee my wives favorite apostle. She lovingly sends me on an adventure to the supermarket with a list not to add or subtract from. Mr. Glee the apostle gets the apostle's reward. Two peanut butter cookies and a glass of cold milk

The apostle Abel the second born used to represent mankind must be born again, as a faithful apostle he prophecies the gospel showing he had grace on Abel but not Cain . Abel first martyr. . Satan's first murder

The church did not begin in Acts it was the time of reformation restoring the government of faith (the unseen eternal) putting an end to the abomination of desolation. Kings in Isarel the pagan foundation (OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND) no god in hearts. . . .fools

The faithless (no power from Christ. . I Am from Missouri. seeing is believing. Same ones that made Jesus into a circus seal .Prove it then when we see with our own eyes, we will believe for a 1/2 a second

​

 

[TATII]

What does that mean? How does he do that?

I guess I would answer you like this...after many years of loving and being loved by the Lord Yahshua...growing and maturing my relationship with Him in faith by the Spirit..."Father to son"...I know that He is my Father and I am His son...Arial.

When I meet someone and they put on display the same spirit...as I interact with them...and I discern the Lord as this brother or sister manifests Him...via His very real and undeniable presence...the Holy Spirit in my human spirit acknowledges His presence in another...I see Christ in them.

Tatwo...

 

[Arial]

I guess I would answer you like this...after many years of loving and being loved by the Lord Yahshua...growing and maturing my relationship with Him in faith by the Spirit..."Father to son"...I know that He is my Father and I am His son...Arial.

When I meet someone and they put on display the same spirit...as I interact with them...and I discern the Lord as this brother or sister manifests Him...via His very real and undeniable presence...the Holy Spirit in my human spirit acknowledges His presence in another...I see Christ in them.

Tatwo...

Well, that actually moves away from the question. The question was not how do you know someone is a Christian. The question was pertaining to your statement that you know some persons who were appointed and annointed by God as apostles and/or prophets?

 

[TATII]

Greetings CrowCross…

I have a couple of questions…

"Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society."

I basically agree with the above, that is, as Christians we should be present in all of the above. For example if the Christians dominated the school boards we wouldn't be having the problems with CRT, trans, marxist concepts and so on. The same could be said for the other mountains.

Aren’t all “seven of the mountains”…merely “sub systems” in the “dragons kosmos” aka the “world system?” Isn’t this just another version or flavor of what can be defined as “Christian Nationalism?”

Aren’t the governments of the all the nations of the world merely tools of the dragon? Just consider the condition of the world today…sovereign nation states governments…falling to the “global-capitalist empire” at an increased pace.

What does any of this have to do with a Kingdom that is not of this world?

Tatwo...

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings CrowCross…

I have a couple of questions…


Aren’t all “seven of the mountains”…merely “sub systems” in the “dragons kosmos” aka the “world system?” Isn’t this just another version or flavor of what can be defined as “Christian Nationalism?”

Aren’t the governments of the all the nations of the world merely tools of the dragon? Just consider the condition of the world today…sovereign nation states governments…falling to the “global-capitalist empire” at an increased pace.

What does any of this have to do with a Kingdom that is not of this world?

Tatwo...

"What does any of this have to do with a Kingdom that is not of this world?"

Are christians a light of the world? Salt?

I have no problem with christians being part of the seven mountains....we should.
I don't think christians will capture the world and make it 'ready" for the return of Jesus to rule. Why? I've read Revelation and it doesn't happen that way.

 

[CrowCross]

I truly liked Post #2. The seven arenas within society should have a prominent Christian presence and Christians need not be NAR to hold that viewpoint or act accordingly. Post 11, however, overgeneralizes. Dispensational Premillennialism started out as a Restoration Movement and many congregations and sects within DPism still are restorationist. We hear it anytime one of its leaders says the Church is corrupt and in need of returning to New Testament era Christianity (so come follow them ). Similarly, there are many forms of Dominionism. Not all Dominionists are Seven Mountains Doms. Dominionist Reconstructionists are not theocratic. Recons are not interested in establishing a theocracy (they teach that was a Jewish perversion that resulted from the Jews rejecting God as their king and elevating the priesthood above a monarchy God never wanted). Recons are theonomic, not theocratic. Seven Mountains Dominionists are different from Reconstructionist Dominionists. Anyone who believes Genesis 1:28 is still to be pursued is a dominionist. That verse has been called the "dominion mandate" for centuries, long before modern Dominionism arose. The same can be said of anyone who believes the Great Commission is a command all Christians should still be obeying. Not all Dominionist or Restorationists seek to make the world perfect for the Lord's return. Modern futurists, for example, expect to be removed from the planet before Jesus returns. They expect the world to go to hell in a handbasket and the only restoration that will occur is the restoration of those in Christ. On the other end of that spectrum are the Recons who say the achievement of a Christian state will usher in Christ's return but the world won't be perfect (just mostly perfect ).

My point is that the NAR is different. It is dominionist, but it's not representative of all Dominionism. There are plenty of differences between the NAR and groups with overlapping viewpoints. I happen to believe the dominion mandate and great commission are still expected of Christians, theonomy is a valid, fully scriptural concept, but I do not identify with any of the groups listed so far. I've read them in their own words (not just the second-hand reports of critics) and said, "No."

I have no problem with a lot of what you said.
I believe if the churches in a particular school district got to gather and selected school board candidates from with in the local churches they could be elected and change the direction of that school district.

I also don't believe the christians will rise to power and establish dominion over the world....or pave the way for Jesus to do that. Why? As I just said above....I've read Revelation and it doesn't happen that way.

 

[TATII]

Well, that actually moves away from the question. The question was not how do you know someone is a Christian. The question was pertaining to your statement that you know some persons who were appointed and annointed by God as apostles and/or prophets?

I answered your questions according to how I read them Arial…I apologize if I read you wrong.

With this next question…“that you know some persons who were appointed and annointed by God as apostles and/or prophets?”... I believe you to be asking me…“How does the Holy Spirit bear witness in me to discern a brother and a brother’s call…specifically that of apostle and prophet?”

Ok…so that is the question that I will attempt to answer here for you to the best of my ability Arial…please permit me to explain a bit…briefly…to set the stage for my answer?

I will assume the readers are “spiritually mature” in their understanding of the “Body of Christ”…the “New Covenant”…the “apostle’s doctrine”…and the “scriptures” themselves…if not…that is fine we can traverse that terrain as needed.

Each person “in Christ” is the “workmanship of God”…created in Christ Yahshua for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them…this according to Paul. It would seem that each person…”individual part or member”…has its own proper working, role or function…in the “corpus Christi.”

This indicates that as the “whole Body” is fitted together by what every joint supplies…it can grow…up into “a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” And of course…there is nothing that can actually stop Christ from maturing to the fullness of His Fathers desire…its God’s plan from “beforehand”…remember?

Now…some who are “graced” by the Lord are called specifically…“for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ”…these are the “apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.”

As a maturing son of God…when I see…or should I say “spiritually discern – spirit bearing witness”…a spiritual family member…”in Christ”…who was graced by the Lord…as one of those who are here to “build up” the Body of Christ…and specifically in the context of our discussion Arial…"apostles and/or prophets"...I can recognize them as the scripture defines them.

I can realize their “gift…grace…calling” in a number of ways…via their “teaching…how they treat the Body of Christ…their writings if any…how the Body of Christ responds to them…and the subsequent administration of Holy Spirit empowerment…allotted to these folks by the Lord Yahshua…to operate in their calling”…this is via my spiritual discernment...or my spirit bearing witness with the the "Holy Spirit” in them.

Simply put…“For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Without this prophetic testimony and subsequent discernment of the “Christ” in another…how would one know who is their brother or sister in the “corpus Christi?”

Not only that…how would anyone expect to know what another's gift in Christ actually is? Perhaps this helps Arial?...Any questions?

Tatwo...

 

[Arial]

I answered your questions according to how I read them Arial…I apologize if I read you wrong.

With this next question…“that you know some persons who were appointed and annointed by God as apostles and/or prophets?”... I believe you to be asking me…“How does the Holy Spirit bear witness in me to discern a brother and a brother’s call…specifically that of apostle and prophet?”

Ok…so that is the question that I will attempt to answer here for you to the best of my ability Arial…please permit me to explain a bit…briefly…to set the stage for my answer?

I will assume the readers are “spiritually mature” in their understanding of the “Body of Christ”…the “New Covenant”…the “apostle’s doctrine”…and the “scriptures” themselves…if not…that is fine we can traverse that terrain as needed.

Each person “in Christ” is the “workmanship of God”…created in Christ Yahshua for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them…this according to Paul. It would seem that each person…”individual part or member”…has its own proper working, role or function…in the “corpus Christi.”

This indicates that as the “whole Body” is fitted together by what every joint supplies…it can grow…up into “a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” And of course…there is nothing that can actually stop Christ from maturing to the fullness of His Fathers desire…its God’s plan from “beforehand”…remember?

Now…some who are “graced” by the Lord are called specifically…“for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ”…these are the “apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.”

As a maturing son of God…when I see…or should I say “spiritually discern – spirit bearing witness”…a spiritual family member…”in Christ”…who was graced by the Lord…as one of those who are here to “build up” the Body of Christ…and specifically in the context of our discussion Arial…"apostles and/or prophets"...I can recognize them as the scripture defines them.

I can realize their “gift…grace…calling” in a number of ways…via their “teaching…how they treat the Body of Christ…their writings if any…how the Body of Christ responds to them…and the subsequent administration of Holy Spirit empowerment…allotted to these folks by the Lord Yahshua…to operate in their calling”…this is via my spiritual discernment...or my spirit bearing witness with the the "Holy Spirit” in them.

Simply put…“For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Without this prophetic testimony and subsequent discernment of the “Christ” in another…how would one know who is their brother or sister in the “corpus Christi?”

Not only that…how would anyone expect to know what another's gift in Christ actually is? Perhaps this helps Arial?...Any questions?

Tatwo...

I have plenty of questions. And just so you don't think I am lacking in knowledge and discernment and think it necessary to give me lessons from kindergarten---I know the answers to these questions. I am asking for your answers. My hope is that it will make you think more deeply on the position (Charismatic?) you have taken. For it will involve how to go about discerning if what we hear or believe is doctrinally sound.

1. Who are the apostles?
2. What was their function in the church?
3.What was the purpose of prophecy in the Bible?
4. Why do we need prophets today?
5. What do you mean by "administration of Holy Spirit empowerment"? And what purpose does it have?
6.How do you know what they say and/or teach is true?
7. Is your spirit bearing witness to the Holy Spirit in them a feeling?
8. Do you think only some Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?

Scripture backup to your answers would be helpful.