SYMPTOMS OF THE MODERN-DAY CHURCH

[prism]

Mathew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Satan seducing mankind to believe God is a Jewish man as King of kings failed. God is not a man

Yes, Jesus who is God in the flesh, said, "I will (future tense) build my Church" (you seemed to have missed that point).

Could you please also explain this passage?...(which you seemed also to have missed)

Acts 20:25,28 KJV
And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. [28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (which would put the beginning of the Church 50+ days before Pentecost).

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, Jesus who is God in the flesh, said, "I will (future tense) build my Church" (you seemed to have missed that point).

Could you please also explain this passage?...(which you seemed also to have missed)

Acts 20:25,28 KJV
And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. [28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (which would put the beginning of the Church 50+ days before Pentecost).

Not a salvation issue .More of how can we hear God in parables.

The mixing recipe in 2 Corinthian 4 below must be applied to clear up things

Note . . .bolded black = temporal. . visible

Note. . . bolded red = eternal never ending invisible

The now you see it. . now you do not.

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version1 While we look not at the things which are seen,(invisible) but at the things which are not seenvisible)for the things which are seen (visible) are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.(invisible )

So then the old testament saints are not part of the body of Christ, the wife . . His eternal bride? ?

As far as that which he hath purchased with his own blood. Eternal God has no blood. He uses blood in the same way as water to represent the work of pouring out the Holy Spirit .

The pouring out of His Holy Spirit as if it was blood pouring on dying flesh and blood In jeapordy of his own Spirit life .

The parable drink blood and eat the flesh .

He gives us little of His faith (power) calling His children us those of little faith

Remember The spirit life is in the flesh.

Eternal Spirit not seen is not temporal literal blood .2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Because, you tried tackling my signature line (it wasn't even my posting). lol

Sorry about the misunderstanding, brother.

 

[prism]

As far as that which he hath purchased with his own blood. Eternal God has no blood. He uses blood in the same way as water to represent the work of pouring out the Holy Spirit .

Oh really?


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mrk 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it,in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, evenJesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Or was Jesus not God in the flesh?
btw, nothing about pouring the Holy Spirit like water in any of those verses.

 

[Mr GLee]

Oh really?


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mrk 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


Or was Jesus not God in the flesh?
btw, nothing about pouring the Holy Spirit like water in any of those verses.

I would offer.

The life (spirit) is in or housed in the flesh .Literal blood without the spirit has no life to offer .It must be poured out to show life was given.

Not a dead sacrifice. Flesh without spirit . Not cannibalism. Life form dead things

Genesis 9: flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (Christ's "Let there be". . without works is dead also.)

Poured into the dust return to it.

Leviticus 8:15And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.

Leviticus 9:9 And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:

Deuteronomy 12:27And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the Lord thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the Lord thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Ezekiel 24:7 For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it not upon the ground, to cover it with dust;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Zephaniah 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung

Food for the flies

Catholicism error by teaching when dead flesh touches saliva it provides spirit life . cannibalism.

Jehovah Witness for the same reason giving the illusion of life to dead things flesh and blood. The largest organ . . . so they do not drink

Christ pouring out His Spirit on dying flesh as if it was blood or if it was water in jeapordy of His Holy Spirit life .

 

[prism]

I would offer.

The life (spirit) is in or housed in the flesh .Literal blood without the spirit has no life to offer .It must be poured out to show life was given.

Not a dead sacrifice. Flesh without spirit . Not cannibalism. Life form dead things

Genesis 9: flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (Christ's "Let there be". . without works is dead also.)

Poured into the dust return to it.

Leviticus 8:15And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.

Leviticus 9:9 And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:

Deuteronomy 12:27And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the Lord thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the Lord thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Ezekiel 24:7 For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it not upon the ground, to cover it with dust;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Zephaniah 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung

Food for the flies

Catholicism error by teaching when dead flesh touches saliva it provides spirit life . cannibalism.

Jehovah Witness for the same reason giving the illusion of life to dead things flesh and blood. The largest organ . . . so they do not drink

Christ pouring out His Spirit on dying flesh as if it was blood or if it was water in jeapordy of His Holy Spirit life .

The Scriptures state:
Romans 12:1 KJV
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Scriptures state:
Romans 12:1 KJV
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Hi Thanks

God is not a Jewish dying man as King of king .

A wile of the evil one to believe Eternal God is dying man.

Yes not dead sacrifices .

The flesh and blood profits for nothing. It must be poured out so it return to dust .

The spirit of life returns to the father .His Spirit could never did

Ecclesiastes 3:20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[prism]

A wile of the evil one to believe Eternal God is dying man.

You've probably heard this verse ad infinitum ad nauseam, in either case, Scripture can't be broken.

Genesis 12:3 KJV
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[Mr GLee]

You've probably heard this verse ad infinitum ad nauseam, in either case, Scripture can't be broken.

Genesis 12:3 KJV
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Yes, it cannot be broken..

I would offer.

Perhaps not the most popular offering but it rings true and cannot be broken .

Peter a sign and wonder seeker. The three time serial denier as one of the "think not doctrines" as a warning .

Peter rebuked the invisible Father and forbid the Son of man, Jesus from doing His eternal will . Trying to seduce the whole world that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

Satan the chief false identity thief acting as the antichrist "another teaching authority" other than sola scriptura. seduced and sent Peter with false prophecy as one of the many antichrists as a false apostle.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the son of man, dying mankind Blasphemy against the unseen eternal Holy Father no forgiveness

Mathew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The corner stone of Catholiscim. Peter the denier.

Satan the chief false identity thief. King of lying signs to wonder after.

 

[prism]

Yes, it cannot be broken..

I would offer.

Perhaps not the most popular offering but it rings true and cannot be broken .

Peter a sign and wonder seeker. The three time serial denier as one of the "think not doctrines" as a warning .

Peter rebuked the invisible Father and forbid the Son of man, Jesus from doing His eternal will . Trying to seduce the whole world that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

Satan the chief false identity thief acting as the antichrist "another teaching authority" other than sola scriptura. seduced and sent Peter with false prophecy as one of the many antichrists as a false apostle.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the son of man, dying mankind Blasphemy against the unseen eternal Holy Father no forgiveness

Mathew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The corner stone of Catholiscim. Peter the denier.

Satan the chief false identity thief. King of lying signs to wonder after.

You can't blame Peter for the usurpation by the Papacy, on the other hand you could at least give him a nod for this gem...

(Mat 16:16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[Mr GLee]

You can't blame Peter for the usurpation by the Papacy, on the other hand you could at least give him a nod for this gem...

(Mat 16:16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Hi Thanks.

Papacy?????

God is not a man as us and neither is there is there any fleshly infalible interpreter (papacy) set between God not seen and dying mankind seen as a umpire (Daysman) between both, have the approval of God and man

I dont blame Peter our brother in the Lord he was seduced and used as one of the many antichrists (false teaching authority).

Peter our brother in the Lord was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus who he forbid form doing the work of our one Holy Father in heaven

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman (Papacy) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Our Holy Father, Emanuel that works in with us lovingly commands us to call not man on earth .Holy Father, Holy See, Prince of the apostles the highly venerable one and only from Rome on and on to the beyond.

The Pope as King Mary our blessed by mercy sister in the lord as queen of heaven

(Mat 16:16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Not Peter you are the Christ the living God. That was Peters idea to usurp the one that di the revaing

 

[Josheb]

SYMPTOMS
Of The Modern-Day Church

Buff Scott, Jr.

Too Organized – Too Ritualistic​

Although God's children are scattered................​

This op does not describe the congregation I have been attending for the last six years, nor the one I attended for the five or six years prior, either.

No more than Martin Luther did!

Very odd choice given Luther's life was spent in a fairly small region with little diversity (spiritually, theologically, ministerially). He did, at one point, oversee about a dozen monasteries, but neither the monastery nor the monastic life is representative of Christ's body, the Church.

I have said that our church structures are monuments that testify of our idolatry.​

What is the idol?

The issue is whether or not we have built church structures and edifices and set them apart—sanctified them—as holy articles or entities. I say we have.​

Are you aware that wherever God appears is holy by definition? Are you aware the word "holy" simply means "separate" and carries with it "sacred purpose," thereby making a congregational building a building separated from sacred purpose? Are you aware no man can make anything holy. God does that? I trust you are aware the "church," the "ecclesia," is never a building?

Perhaps you should take some time and reconsider this op.

If I’m correct...​

You are not correct. This is a very bad op. Elements of half-truths used to describe a condition that is not representative of Christ's body.

, we are as guilty of idolatry as were the children of Israel who erected Asherah poles as symbols of worship. God told Israel in no uncertain terms:

“Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” (Lev. 26:1).​

What then is the difference between a structure, or a building, in which it's okay to meet, and one that is not?

 

[Mr GLee]

What then is the difference between a structure, or a building, in which it's okay to meet, and one that is not?

I would offer .

Believers have always ben the temple of god not made with the hands of men a moving living Not one made by human hands as a will brick and cement. Non moveable to give the idea of they are hiding a living Jewish man as King of kings behind the veil .

He used a movable temples in the wilderness as a sign or shadow to all the surround pagan nations that Hebrew served a invisible God through his writen law . It ended when they reached the propmised land . Yhe unbelieving Jew in jealousy of all the pagan nations foundation .Out of sight out of Mind . as in why believe in a invisible God .Fools

Kings in Israel the lead abomination of desolation

The last abomination of desolation making sola scriptura without effect. Dying mankind in the place of our invisible God after the oral tradition of dying mankind was made desolate to no effect when in Mathew 23 jesus walked out for the last time and prophesied "Let you remain desolate" .Not will be.. . is.

The time of first century reformation had come restoring the authority (sola scriptura) destroying all kings (government of men)

Brick building are not a source of faith "our unseen God's understanding ".

They are used today a ceremonial sign a shadow to the world in a hope of drawing mankind to the living gospel On a volunteer bases . Not all are called to that kind of ministry . Some sent out .

 

[prism]

Papacy?????

. In 756, Pepin the Short granted the Pope power over regions near Rome, giving rise to the Papal States.

The development of ancient Christianity made the Bishop of Rome both religiously and politically important and established Rome as the centre of Christianity.

 

[Josheb]

I would offer .

Believers have always ben the temple of god not made with the hands of men............

Church building, not temple, @Mr. Glee. Let's see what @Buff Scott Jr. has to say, shall we?


Buff,

What then is the difference between a structure, or a building, in which it's okay to meet, and one that is not? Which building qualifies as a n idol and which doesn't?


.

 

[Mr GLee]

Church building, not temple, @Mr. Glee. Let's see what @Buff Scott Jr. has to say, shall we?


Buff,

What then is the difference between a structure, or a building, in which it's okay to meet, and one that is not? Which building qualifies as a n idol and which doesn't?


.

I would offer. .

Believers beginning in Genesis with Abel, the second born are the temples made without hands . From it Christ working in them with them sends out his apostles with the gospel. Like the first apostle Abel. ( living temple)And not dead bricks and stones the pagan foundation.

"The abomination of desolation." making His living temple mankind without efect

Satan the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning. Murdered the first living temple as a representative of those born again .

Satan destroyed that temple (Abel) that Christ used to used to represent a man "must be born again"

God re-established the born again loving law through the spiritual seed Christ. . . in another second born Enos, as temple of God.

The second born seed Christ was fulfilled in the Son of man Jesus. The end of the geanalolgy of the one seed invisible Christ the husband .
It was then in Genesis 4 he established the principle that men miraculously could seek after or call upon the name of the Faithfull Creator (the unseen eternal things ) Giving them a desire to do so. They knew the first born again. . was not Cain he murdered that representative.

Genesis 4: 25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

No buildings as a temple made with dying hands of mankind as a will . . .qualifies. It disqualifies.

The ceremonial signs are not unto them who perform.( I did it, it proves I am righteous ) But are a gospel signs to the world in a hope of drawing men to His living word .Then sends them out temples

If we try and make it about those who perform the signs to the unbelieving world. Then mankind falls into judgment . ,God does not live in temples made with human hands. An abomination of desolation

Leviticus 10:1-3King James Version And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord

All buildings that are used to make it about the building (idol images) are offering of strange fire (adding to the word) violating the law not to (Deuteronomy 4:2 )

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Sends out apostles as living temples even today with the gospel into the world two by two.

The witness of two .. . as a law of faith. The one witness of God not seen has spoken. The invisible witnesses Christ, made known by the visible temporal Son of man Jesus, dying mankind . The demonstration of two empowered by one

The Gospel. Christ pouring out his Holy Spirit on dying flesh and blood in jeapordy of his own Spirit life .

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, (his own flesh) and in three days I will raise it up.

The Father raised it up just as with all believers.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Church building, not temple, @Mr. Glee. Let's see what @Buff Scott Jr. has to say, shall we?


Buff,

What then is the difference between a structure, or a building, in which it's okay to meet, and one that is not? Which building qualifies as a n idol and which doesn't?

Josheb:

I recently wrote under "Worship" the following, which addresses your question. Please evaluate it.

"Even the Living Room can become an idol like church structures if sanctified or set apart for "worship services." The believer's heart is the only article to be sanctified—set apart—for worship, and that's to be incessant, not only when we meet at some church structure. Jesus confirmed this when He informed the woman at the well that in this current age, under the new covenant, worship would be anytime and the place where we are. To phrase it another way, worship for the believer is to be continual or incessant. Jesus makes it clear."

Hope this clarifies.​

 

[Josheb]

Josheb:

I recently wrote under "Worship" the following, which addresses your question. Please evaluate it.

"Even the Living Room can become an idol like church structures if sanctified or set apart for "worship services." The believer's heart is the only article to be sanctified—set apart—for worship, and that's to be incessant, not only when we meet at some church structure. Jesus confirmed this when He informed the woman at the well that in this current age, under the new covenant, worship would be anytime and the place where we are. To phrase it another way, worship for the believer is to be continual or incessant. Jesus makes it clear."

Hope this clarifies.​

I do not dispute the possibility anything may become an idol. Humanity's chief idol is the self, and we are sinfully propelled and hell-bent on making anything and everything around us idols of self-idolatry. What I do dispute, and what has not been addressed is the broad, sweeping overgeneralizations and lack of evidence in this op. What I do dispute, and what hasn't been addressed is the proper discrimination between a functional and godly use of all God's creation for the purpose of worshiping the only God in Spirit and truth that would include the work of His creatures' hands. What I do dispute and what hasn't been addressed is the faulty logic and very poor use of scripture that would justify the Church judging, the overgeneralization, and the ironic the self-glorification, the self-justification, the idolization of the opinions expressed in this op. I trust this op was meant for our edification, and I am wholly supportive of that motivation. However, the target was missed. I hope this clarifies.

Please evaluate it.

Before doing so, however, please address the points previously made and answer the questions already asked. This op does NOT describe the Church in which I fellowship. I can and do look around and see idolators all around, but they are not the Church as defined by scripture. Apparently other posters here agree with me. That alone demands clarification and it's been ignored entirely. Is what this op asserts applicable to the entire Church? (because if so then what this op asserts is godless heresy, and I will respond with all the force my words can muster to put that dross to death lest it infect the less mature among us). Is what you've observed only a portion of the Church? If so, then say so! Amend the op accordingly! Where applicable, provide evidence with examples we can all look at and share agreement - build from consensus. Do it because scripture calls those who divide the Church unjustly "devils" (Jn. 8:44; Rev. 12:10) and none of us want to be a devil. I'll let the Luther thing go because it's trivial in comparison to some of the other problems in this op.

Define an idol. Help us ALL to understand what you mean when saying, "our church structures are monuments that testify of our idolatry," and give some consideration to how that reads, not just to how it might have been intended because it sounds like you're saying buildings built specifically for Christians to gather and worship are either idols and shouldn't exist or, if once justified, they've become sinful. That statement, that indictment, that judgment that includes an "our" was made without any clarification, no discrimination, and no evidence. As written, it's a baseless claim that implicitly elevates you and marginalizes the any of the "our" who disagree. I am guessing that was not your intent. Bricks, wood, siding, and the materials used to construct a building of fellowship, ministry, and worship are nothing but that which is built from simple objects of creation in hope of service to God. To say our "church structures" are testimonies of our idolatry is to say we have turned what God has created into those witnesses. If that is what this op is intended to say, then I'd like you to prove that claim. So, define what you mean by "idolatry."

The appeal to Asherah poles is as dubious as the appeal to Luther because 1) those poles are not buildings (1 Kings 11:7 or Hosea 8:14 would have much better references), and 2) not every Israelite built Asherah poles or idols to other gods. You don't get to misuse scripture and judge the entire body of Christ without dissent. By comparing the supposed idolatry of "church structures" to Asherah poles, the implication is our building are objects of worship to other gods. Prove it.

Most importantly, define the Church. Historically, the Church, the ecclesia, has mean those "called out;" those called out of the world's worldliness into holy - separated and sacred - service to God. Scripturally, the Church always means people and never a building nor a denominationally institutionally organized segment of those called out. Historically, it is those calling for purity that have been the biggest, most self-elevating-Church-judging, Church-dividing people (John Darby comes to mind in "the Modern-Day Church"). The Church has always been a messy place. The letters to Corinth prove this. That reality should be reflected in the op.



I tried to start kind, patient, gentle and hopeful. Don't take the bluntness of this post as adversarial or disrespect. We're two pages into this thread and I and others have brought some things to bear on this op that it appears weren't considered prior to posting this op. Defending the errors is the exact opposite of what should happen in this conversation, so I hope you will show up for the conversation and collaborate with us so that a more accurate, scripturally measurable appraisal of the supposed "symptoms" of the "modern Church" (are you aware that is an oxymoron?) and its supposed idolatry witnessed in "church structures."

 

[Josheb]

Instead of trying to get the world into our church structures, let the Good News of the resurrection take believers out of our church structures and into the world.

The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. I deliberately choose to fellowship in congregations that spend what's left over from administrative expenses on ministry and missions. They/we understand we are the temple of God and God does not dwell in houses built by human hands, and we will gladly join you in a fair appraisal of the body of Christ (2 Tim. 2:20-22; 1 Pet. 4:17). They/we practice James 1:27 to the best of God's enabling, and we do so in joyful obedience. They meet the needs of those in the congregation, they reach out to the immediately surrounding geography, and they send missionaries far away. There's not a penny left that does not have a purpose, nor a gifted person who's not using those gifts in some way. These kinds of congregations are all around and if you're not in one of them, if you're not leading in one of them, then you are the problem, not the rest of us. Don't include those of us who are doing what we're supposed to be doing in this op's "our." What this op describes may not be the Church. I've been a Christian for over forty years and have been blessed to be raised in these kinds of congregations all along the way. Are there congregations that do not do that? Yep. I do not dispute that. What I dispute is the overgeneralized indictment of the Church in modernity and the god forsaken assumption everyone can be gathered into this op's "our."


This problem has always existed, but in modernity..... this kind of arrogant Church-judging appeal to purity began in the 19th century's Restoration Movement and its chief culprits today are the Dispensationalists and their misguided ecclesiology. the rest of Christendom looks at these would-be judges and wonders what's wrong with them and why they cannot see their own error.




Now that I've got that out of the way.....

• Define the Church.
• Define idolatry.
• Qualify the statement about church structures being testimonies of idolatry.
• Acknowledge the false dichotomy of buildings and worship versus ministry/missions.
• Acknowledge the obedience of the Church!
• Go through your own op with a critical eye and clarify what need clarification and amend what needs fixing as best you can.
• Use scripture wherever possible and use it well.

If you do not, then I will. I'd prefer not to do that. I'd prefer to start small, collaboratively build from consensus, collaboratively affirm what this op has correct, collaboratively correct what this op has wrong, and in goodwill conclude with a scripture-measured unity that demonstrates something akin to Ephesians 4:12-16.


Are you up for that?


As a show of faith and goodwill I will offer definitions of the idolatry and the Church. The Church, as I have already stated, is those who have been called out by God, those created in Christ for good works, the saints who possess all the combined attributes listed in the introductions of the epistles. An idol is anything that is considered more important than God, anything that takes the place of God.

Are those definitions amenable to you? Is there something to be added? If so, then do so. If not, then a simple, immediate, direct, unqualified, "Amen!" is all that is necessary, and we then have a means of parsing the op.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

I do not dispute the possibility anything may become an idol. Humanity's chief idol is the self, and we are sinfully propelled and hell-bent on making anything and everything around us idols of self-idolatry. What I do dispute, and what has not been addressed is the broad, sweeping overgeneralizations and lack of evidence in this op. What I do dispute, and what hasn't been addressed is the proper discrimination between a functional and godly use of all God's creation for the purpose of worshiping the only God in Spirit and truth that would include the work of His creatures' hands. What I do dispute and what hasn't been addressed is the faulty logic and very poor use of scripture that would justify the Church judging, the overgeneralization, and the ironic the self-glorification, the self-justification, the idolization of the opinions expressed in this op. I trust this op was meant for our edification, and I am wholly supportive of that motivation. However, the target was missed. I hope this clarifies.

Please evaluate it.

Before doing so, however, please address the points previously made and answer the questions already asked. This op does NOT describe the Church in which I fellowship. I can and do look around and see idolators all around, but they are not the Church as defined by scripture. Apparently other posters here agree with me. That alone demands clarification and it's been ignored entirely. Is what this op asserts applicable to the entire Church? (because if so then what this op asserts is godless heresy, and I will respond with all the force my words can muster to put that dross to death lest it infect the less mature among us). Is what you've observed only a portion of the Church? If so, then say so! Amend the op accordingly! Where applicable, provide evidence with examples we can all look at and share agreement - build from consensus. Do it because scripture calls those who divide the Church unjustly "devils" (Jn. 8:44; Rev. 12:10) and none of us want to be a devil. I'll let the Luther thing go because it's trivial in comparison to some of the other problems in this op.

Define an idol. Help us ALL to understand what you mean when saying, "our church structures are monuments that testify of our idolatry," and give some consideration to how that reads, not just to how it might have been intended because it sounds like you're saying buildings built specifically for Christians to gather and worship are either idols and shouldn't exist or, if once justified, they've become sinful. That statement, that indictment, that judgment that includes an "our" was made without any clarification, no discrimination, and no evidence. As written, it's a baseless claim that implicitly elevates you and marginalizes the any of the "our" who disagree. I am guessing that was not your intent. Bricks, wood, siding, and the materials used to construct a building of fellowship, ministry, and worship are nothing but that which is built from simple objects of creation in hope of service to God. To say our "church structures" are testimonies of our idolatry is to say we have turned what God has created into those witnesses. If that is what this op is intended to say, then I'd like you to prove that claim. So, define what you mean by "idolatry."

The appeal to Asherah poles is as dubious as the appeal to Luther because 1) those poles are not buildings (1 Kings 11:7 or Hosea 8:14 would have much better references), and 2) not every Israelite built Asherah poles or idols to other gods. You don't get to misuse scripture and judge the entire body of Christ without dissent. By comparing the supposed idolatry of "church structures" to Asherah poles, the implication is our building are objects of worship to other gods. Prove it.

Most importantly, define the Church. Historically, the Church, the ecclesia, has mean those "called out;" those called out of the world's worldliness into holy - separated and sacred - service to God. Scripturally, the Church always means people and never a building nor a denominationally institutionally organized segment of those called out. Historically, it is those calling for purity that have been the biggest, most self-elevating-Church-judging, Church-dividing people (John Darby comes to mind in "the Modern-Day Church"). The Church has always been a messy place. The letters to Corinth prove this. That reality should be reflected in the op.



I tried to start kind, patient, gentle and hopeful. Don't take the bluntness of this post as adversarial or disrespect. We're two pages into this thread and I and others have brought some things to bear on this op that it appears weren't considered prior to posting this op. Defending the errors is the exact opposite of what should happen in this conversation, so I hope you will show up for the conversation and collaborate with us so that a more accurate, scripturally measurable appraisal of the supposed "symptoms" of the "modern Church" (are you aware that is an oxymoron?) and its supposed idolatry witnessed in "church structures."

Josheb:

Let me say that for the sincere believer, everything is an expression of worship, for worship for the committed believer never ends, if I understand Jesus’ statements correctly in John 4:21-24. He said simply that worship in the new age, the Christian era, would be anytime and the place where we are. The Lord’s Supper, when offered, would be the nucleus of attention. The Supper would be a period of jubilation and pondering, not a death march.

I’d like to quote from the late Charles Spurgeon regarding worship, temples, and houses. The quotation may be found in his message, “Additions To The Church.” Please do not by-pass this, as it contains wisdom worth digesting.​

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“New Testament believers did not think that religion was meant only for Sundays, and for what men now-a-days call ‘the House of God.’ Does God need such a house? He who made the heavens and the earth, does He dwell in temples made with hands? What crass ignorance is this!

“No house beneath the sky is more holy than the place where a Christian lives, and eats, and drinks, and sleeps, and praises the Lord in all that he does. There is no worship more heavenly than that which is presented by holy families, devoted to His fear. To sacrifice ‘home worship’ to ‘public worship’ is a most evil course of action. Morning and evening devotions in a cottage are infinitely more pleasing in the sight of God than all the cathedral pomp which delights the carnal eye and ear. Every truly Christian household is a church, and as such it is competent for the discharge of any function of divine worship, whatever it may be.

“Are we not all priests? Why do we need to call in others to make devotion a performance? Let every man be a priest in his own house. Are you not all kings if you love the Lord? Then make your houses palaces of joy and temples of holiness. One reason why the early church had such a blessing was because her members had such homes.”
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A lot of this relates to what you've covered thus far. Hope it enlightens.​