Speaking of Impossible Things: Can Formal Logic Yield Atheism?

[John Bauer]

Bottom of the post, the part in italics.

That was awesome.

 

[Josheb]

That was awesome.

Thanks. Stops atheists in their tracks. Antitheists muster an appeal to incredulity and change the subject. Imagine what it was like working in academia and the professional counseling arena on the occasions I'd mention that event. Hard to call someone you've worked with and held with some modicum of esteem delusional. On the other hand, if I were nuts then I'm sure someone among them would have let me know by now .

I didn't mention this earlier but the premise we all look at the exact same information but draw different conclusions can have the effect of undermining their confidence and opening their mind to alternatives because it implies there is a possibility they might look at the exact same evidence they've been considering for years and find themselves changing their belief. If God showed up in a manifest way that could not be denied, would you, Mr. Atheist, then believe? What would that do to all the information currently used to say there is no God? If it is fact, the facts don't not disappear. What becomes of them now that a belief in God is attained? Have you ever viewed that lecture by Lawrence Krause (I think it's titled "A Universe from Nothing")? The first time I watched that I said, "Yeah, and.........? Everything in that lecture fits perfectly with the Bible."

God said it first

I’ve never encountered any valid and sound argument that leads to the conclusion of atheism.

Neither have I, although I suppose one might exist. I do know that although I have always assented to the existence of a god intellectually, I did not act as if that was true. My behavior denied His existence all the time, every time for many years.

And then that thing in the other post happened .

God can be so inconvenient sometimes .

Good thing He loves us .

 

[Bruiser]

Thanks. Stops atheists in their tracks. Antitheists muster an appeal to incredulity and change the subject. Imagine what it was like working in academia and the professional counseling arena on the occasions I'd mention that event. Hard to call someone you've worked with and held with some modicum of esteem delusional. On the other hand, if I were nuts then I'm sure someone among them would have let me know by now .

I didn't mention this earlier but the premise we all look at the exact same information but draw different conclusions can have the effect of undermining their confidence and opening their mind to alternatives because it implies there is a possibility they might look at the exact same evidence they've been considering for years and find themselves changing their belief. If God showed up in a manifest way that could not be denied, would you, Mr. Atheist, then believe? What would that do to all the information currently used to say there is no God? If it is fact, the facts don't not disappear. What becomes of them now that a belief in God is attained? Have you ever viewed that lecture by Lawrence Krause (I think it's titled "A Universe from Nothing")? The first time I watched that I said, "Yeah, and.........? Everything in that lecture fits perfectly with the Bible."

God said it first

Neither have I, although I suppose one might exist. I do know that although I have always assented to the existence of a god intellectually, I did not act as if that was true. My behavior denied His existence all the time, every time for many years.

And then that thing in the other post happened .

God can be so inconvenient sometimes .

Good thing He loves us .

That corresponds with my way of thinking; a Negative can never overturn a Positive. If an Atheist ever got an Irresistible Positive reason to Believe the Bible, a hundred Negative reasons wouldn't get rid of the Positive...

Your Lawrence Krause example is another example of the way I think; Science will eventually side with God. We beat them to these Conclusions. For instance, they theorize of a Multiverse; Heaven, Hell and Earth are a Multiverse. That kind of stuff...

 

[Josheb]

That corresponds with my way of thinking; a Negative can never overturn a Positive. If an Atheist ever got an Irresistible Positive reason to Believe the Bible, a hundred Negative reasons wouldn't get rid of the Positive...

Your Lawrence Krause example is another example of the way I think; Science will eventually side with God. We beat them to these Conclusions. For instance, they theorize of a Multiverse; Heaven, Hell and Earth are a Multiverse. That kind of stuff...

I like to think of it this way: A bunch of wandering Semites, who supposedly stole a bunch of ideas from everyone else, managed to come up with a worldview that explained everything multiple millennia before contemporary science. How'd they do that?

Or maybe it was God.

And He revealed what's really what to them.

Francis Schaeffer expounds a great deal on the veracity of revelation and its relationship to the epistemology of science. His trilogy, or the book "He is There and He is Not Silent," (the last book of the trilogy) is a great place to start.

 

[Bruiser]

I like to think of it this way: A bunch of wandering Semites, who supposedly stole a bunch of ideas from everyone else, managed to come up with a worldview that explained everything multiple millennia before contemporary science. How'd they do that?

Or maybe it was God.

And He revealed what's really what to them.

Francis Schaeffer expounds a great deal on the veracity of revelation and its relationship to the epistemology of science. His trilogy, or the book "He is There and He is Not Silent," (the last book of the trilogy) is a great place to start.

I should read more books. I did when I first got Saved. All the men had these huge libraries. I ended up with one bookcase full...

Before my wife threw them all away...

She was Pentecostal, I was Cage Stage...

 

[Josheb]

I should read more books. I did when I first got Saved. All the men had these huge libraries. I ended up with one bookcase full...

Before my wife threw them all away...

She was Pentecostal, I was Cage Stage...

God was probably working through her to do you a favor . I read a lot and I suppose I a benefit at least a little from every book I read because even those with which I disagree hone my understanding but out of the hundreds of books (more than a thousand, really) I have in my library, those I'd consider necessary (and the Bible is the only truly necessary book), I'd say less than a dozen are ones every Christian should read (like Schaeffer's trilogy, JI Packer's "Knowing God," or Bonhoeffer's "Life Together").

 

[Bruiser]

God was probably working through her to do you a favor . I read a lot and I suppose I a benefit at least a little from every book I read because even those with which I disagree hone my understanding but out of the hundreds of books (more than a thousand, really) I have in my library, those I'd consider necessary (and the Bible is the only truly necessary book), I'd say less than a dozen are ones every Christian should read.

I often say my formative years were while I was in my Reformed Baptist Church and my Independent Fundamental Baptist Church; but I forget my time visiting my wife's Pentecostal Church...

My experience is getting Aspetated Pneumonia; it has a big death rate. They put me in the ICU and called my family in since I was in a Coma dying. My Pentecostal Preacher boss from work came and laid hands on me; I woke right up. I was healed and left the ICU on the eigth day. The doctor said at best if I survived, I should have been in ICU in a Coma for a month; then moved to a hospital room. They said I should have had heart and lung damage, but both were stronger than they should be for a healthy man my age...

Glory to God...

 

[atpollard]

I often say my formative years were while I was in my Reformed Baptist Church and my Independent Fundamental Baptist Church; but I forget my time visiting my wife's Pentecostal Church...

My experience is getting Aspetated Pneumonia; it has a big death rate. They put me in the ICU and called my family in since I was in a Coma dying. My Pentecostal Preacher boss from work came and laid hands on me; I woke right up. I was healed and left the ICU on the eigth day. The doctor said at best if I survived, I should have been in ICU in a Coma for a month; then moved to a hospital room. They said I should have had heart and lung damage, but both were stronger than they should be for a healthy man my age...

Glory to God...

I think God does that to mess with our heads. I mean God provides such clear narrative in Scripture about "tongues" and then we get what happens in a Pentecostal Church ... so we "people of the Word" shake our heads. Then someone lying in a hospital bed with multiple organ failure is prayed over by those same people ... and is walking around 24-48 hours later like nothing was ever wrong.

God is just messing with us ... a reminder that it was never about "What we Know" but always about "Who we Trust".

[Yesterday, the washing machine (clothes) stopped working. I told Teresa to call the repair man. He could not arrive for two days. So she laid hands on the washer and prayed for it ... and it started working again.] I can't argue with that ... apparently God heals washing machines, too.

 

[Bruiser]

I think God does that to mess with our heads. I mean God provides such clear narrative in Scripture about "tongues" and then we get what happens in a Pentecostal Church ... so we "people of the Word" shake our heads. Then someone lying in a hospital bed with multiple organ failure is prayed over by those same people ... and is walking around 24-48 hours later like nothing was ever wrong.

God is just messing with us ... a reminder that it was never about "What we Know" but always about "Who we Trust".

[Yesterday, the washing machine (clothes) stopped working. I told Teresa to call the repair man. He could not arrive for two days. So she laid hands on the washer and prayed for it ... and it started working again.] I can't argue with that ... apparently God heals washing machines, too.

It's nice to see Calvinists accepting the possibility...

Of course, a lot of what's going on in Pentecostal Churches is junk

 

[atpollard]

It's nice to see Calvinists accepting the possibility...

Hey, I'm a Baptist ... don't lump me in with them WCF Presbyterians ... we don't sprinkle dem babies!

Of course, a lot of what's going on in Pentecostal Churches is junk

It is, but at one point I was attending two churches (alternating between them). The Southern Baptist Church "fed my mind" with the Word of God taught by great teachers and exciting, interactive classes (the sermons were good, if a little too long ... I still find an hour of exposition too long). The Pentecostal Church had a pastor that was raised Moravian and had a very distinct congregation and flavor ... I loved the passion and energy and worship music (no dead hymns or "Jesus is my boyfriend" contemporary lyrics).

The SBC always seemed to be praying for NEEDS and the PC always seemed to be reporting how a prayer had been answered. It might be related to "what they choose to talk about", but the PC church is the only place that I know of (first hand) where a dead man got up and walked.

Mr Newton slumped down in the front row. The church thought that he was sick. A doctor, an ER RN and a Hospice RN all escorted him out of the room to care for him and discovered he had no pulse. EMTs arrived, examined him and were filling out the paperwork to transport the body. Inside the church, the congregation had stopped the service to pray for the "sick" Mr Newton to be healed. The EMTs screamed when Mr. Newton sat up, refused transport and returned to the Church service. He died at home in bed ten years later.​

So maybe, a Doctor, two RNs and two EMTs got it wrong ... or maybe God is still God and a dead man can still get up and walk.
[You don't see that in a High Church, do you?]

 

[Bruiser]

Hey, I'm a Baptist ... don't lump me in with them WCF Presbyterians ... we don't sprinkle dem babies!



It is, but at one point I was attending two churches (alternating between them). The Southern Baptist Church "fed my mind" with the Word of God taught by great teachers and exciting, interactive classes (the sermons were good, if a little too long ... I still find an hour of exposition too long). The Pentecostal Church had a pastor that was raised Moravian and had a very distinct congregation and flavor ... I loved the passion and energy and worship music (no dead hymns or "Jesus is my boyfriend" contemporary lyrics).

The SBC always seemed to be praying for NEEDS and the PC always seemed to be reporting how a prayer had been answered. It might be related to "what they choose to talk about", but the PC church is the only place that I know of (first hand) where a dead man got up and walked.

Mr Newton slumped down in the front row. The church thought that he was sick. A doctor, an ER RN and a Hospice RN all escorted him out of the room to care for him and discovered he had no pulse. EMTs arrived, examined him and were filling out the paperwork to transport the body. Inside the church, the congregation had stopped the service to pray for the "sick" Mr Newton to be healed. The EMTs screamed when Mr. Newton sat up, refused transport and returned to the Church service. He died at home in bed ten years later.​

So maybe, a Doctor, two RNs and two EMTs got it wrong ... or maybe God is still God and a dead man can still get up and walk.
[You don't see that in a High Church, do you?]

There's a difference between our recognizing something, and our latching on to something. As Baptists, were kind of taught not to accept modern spiritual gifts...

But God can still move his Sceptre. Pentecostals can keep that other nonsense...

Isn't Matt Slick kinda Pentecostal?