Simplifying The Catholic - Protestant Divide.

[Dave]

It is my understanding that Catholicism sees the fruit of the Spirit as the "righteousness of God" that justifies us. Thus the process...but this is not what the Bible means when it speaks of the righteousness of God that justifies. It was His (Jesus) righteousness demonstrated, for Jesus is Just, and the Justifier for all who believe. I believe that scripture is clear in this matter in many ways, one of them being the way it often pits our "efforts", or works, against our Fathers grace by faith (Romans 10:1-4 to name one).

While it is true that a living faith manifests itself with good works, I would call that a necessary evidence of salvation (our claims before men, and belief of being justified...James 2), but not a merit for justification by any means. Evidence vs. merit. That's the difference between the correct Biblical understanding, and Catholicism in my opinion. The scripture in question is always warning about self deception (You can tell a tree by it's fruit--evidence), not falling short of earning our justification, which is impossible for man to do. Understanding the nature of God, His perfect attributes, goes a long way towards understanding this. The Law, like Him, require perfect obedience. What is impossible for man is possible for God...Jesus said 'I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it'...every sin is a transgression of the Law...if we transgressed the Law at one point, we have transgressed it at every point.

It's the motive that separates legalism from grace. If a person trusts in their own works for justification, even in part, they are under the Law and will be found guilty by the perfect standards of the Law (you who want to be under the Law, are you not aware of what the Law says?...therefore, no man can be justified by the Law, for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin.)

The truth is, as Macarthur has said, I'm no more righteous today than I was the first day that I believed, as far as justification is concerned.

Presupposing the response, I just wanted to touch on this, as it is important. Paul, within the context of justification, did in fact separate works from grace as he said that if it is of grace, it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. He also said quite clearly that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, not of ourselves (Eph 2).

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now you could post scripture, that when interpreted on an island, can seem to contradict the scripture that I posted above, but I guarantee you, that the context of those passages that you post will be about evidence, not justification.

Dave

 

[Soyeong]

It is my understanding that Catholicism sees the fruit of the Spirit as the "righteousness of God" that justifies us. Thus the process...but this is not what the Bible means when it speaks of the righteousness of God that justifies. It was His (Jesus) righteousness demonstrated, for Jesus is Just, and the Justifier for all who believe. I believe that scripture is clear in this matter in many ways, one of them being the way it often pits our "efforts", or works, against our Fathers grace by faith (Romans 10:1-4 to name one).

God's law was not given as a way of earning our righteousness even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to now God and Jesus, which is is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead.

Relying on our own efforts does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to consider relying on God's instructions to be relying on our own efforts. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in God's instructions while relying on our own efforts would involve doing something other than relying on God's instructions.

The Law, like Him, require perfect obedience. What is impossible for man is possible for God...Jesus said 'I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it'...every sin is a transgression of the Law...if we transgressed the Law at one point, we have transgressed it at every point.

In Deuteronomy 30, it presents obedience to God's law as being a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance wouldn't do us any good, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they need to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and obey God's law more consistently. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

The truth is, as Macarthur has said, I'm no more righteous today than I was the first day that I believed, as far as justification is concerned.

Someone can become more or less righteous:

Genesis 38:26 Then Judah identified them and said, “She is more righteousthan I, since I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not know her again.

1 Samuel 24:17 He said to David, “You are more righteous than I, for you have repaid me good, whereas I have repaid you evil.

Presupposing the response, I just wanted to touch on this, as it is important. Paul, within the context of justification, did in fact separate works from grace as he said that if it is of grace, it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. He also said quite clearly that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, not of ourselves (Eph 2). Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace. For example, a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. Likewise, God's given of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives are still directed towards being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being made to be a doer of good works in obedience to God's law is nevertheless a central part of God's gift of salvation.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works in obedience to His law is the aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there must be a reason why our righteousness requires us to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the same faith by which we are declared righteous also upholds God's law (Romans 3:27-31). In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of the law, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of our obedience to it. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

 

[Dave]

God's law was not given as a way of earning our righteousness even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to now God and Jesus, which is is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

Hi Soy

God's Law was not a way of earning righteousness, but it is the standard for establishing it. I think that your mixing evidence with justification. God is perfect in all His attributes. He is also bound by these attributes. Look at the lengths that He had to go to satisfy His justice on our behalf while at the same time not compromising who He is. When asked what can man do to be saved, Jesus stringently laid out what it means to obey the Law to it's satisfaction, perfectly, and they, the ones who asked the question, gave the obvious reply. What then can man do? Jesus answered; For what is impossible for man, is possible for God. The righteousness of God that saves is Jesus, as fully man, and fully God, living a perfectly sinless and obedient life. The Lamb without blemish is the only one qualified to atone for sin. The only true righteousness that saves is the righteousness of God. That's Jesus, as a man, living in perfect obedience. Impossible for us, but possible for Him, who is God in the flesh. Fully God, and fully man. For Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe (Romans 10:4).

How helpless is man? This is God's standard and our condition. Think about the implications as each builds upon the other.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Only Jesus passes the test. That's the standard that God's Law requires.

Someone can become more or less righteous:

Genesis 38:26 Then Judah identified them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not know her again.

1 Samuel 24:17 He said to David, “You are more righteous than I, for you have repaid me good, whereas I have repaid you evil.

But where did that righteousness (fruit of the Spirit) come from? It came from God, right? A good tree (God) cannot bear bad fruit. A bad tree (Our flesh, us apart from God) cannot bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17-19). God says that our righteousness (from the flesh), is like dirty rags (Isaiah 64:6). Jesus said that we can do nothing (good implied), without Him (John 15:5).

You see, 'what do we have that we did not receive, and if we did receive it, why do we boast as if we didn't?' (1 Corinthians 4:7-8). We don't get to claim any merit for justification from our flesh, because our flesh is incapable of producing good fruit. And the Spirit gets credit for what the Spirit does, even through us. We give God the glory because He actually deserves it.

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives are still directed towards being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law.

Yes, I agree, but this does not in any way contribute to our being justified, right? We have all failed that test already. Agreed? Remember, our lives are a package deal. If we've sinned one time, we are completely helpless to contribute anything towards our justification.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

Again, yes, the fruit of the Spirit is the benefit, the non legal benefit of our being conformed to Christlikeness. It's the fruit of the Spirit and is an evidence, not a merit.

Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there must be a reason why our righteousness requires us to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the same faith by which we are declared righteous also upholds God's law (Romans 3:27-31). In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of the law, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of our obedience to it. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Soyeong, I must admit, I have a hard time understanding what you mean half the time. Sometimes it sounds like your trying to sell a works based salvation, while other times you seem to recognize the difference between the fruit of the Spirit, evidence, and justification, the legality of our salvation. But just in case, I see them as distinct in context. One is the means of satisfying God's Holy standards and making peace between us and God, which only Jesus can do. To be positionally sanctified is justification. To be practically, or progressively sanctified, is becoming what God already reckons us to be "in Christ".

Dave

 

[Soyeong]

Hi Soy

God's Law was not a way of earning righteousness, but it is the standard for establishing it. I think that your mixing evidence with justification. God is perfect in all His attributes. He is also bound by these attributes. Look at the lengths that He had to go to satisfy His justice on our behalf while at the same time not compromising who He is. When asked what can man do to be saved, Jesus stringently laid out what it means to obey the Law to it's satisfaction, perfectly, and they, the ones who asked the question, gave the obvious reply. What then can man do? Jesus answered; For what is impossible for man, is possible for God. The righteousness of God that saves is Jesus, as fully man, and fully God, living a perfectly sinless and obedient life. The Lamb without blemish is the only one qualified to atone for sin. The only true righteousness that saves is the righteousness of God. That's Jesus, as a man, living in perfect obedience. Impossible for us, but possible for Him, who is God in the flesh. Fully God, and fully man. For Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe (Romans 10:4).

Hello.

In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn’t say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe in. Our salvation is not just about having our sin atoned for, but is also about being made to be like Christ by being a doer of his character traits in accordance with the example that he set for us to follow of how walk in obedience to God law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law (Acts 21:20).

How helpless is man? This is God's standard and our condition. Think about the implications as each builds upon the other.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Only Jesus passes the test. That's the standard that God's Law requires.

God’s law contains instructions for what to do when we sin, so we can continue to be a doer of the law by following those instructions.

But where did that righteousness (fruit of the Spirit) come from? It came from God, right? A good tree (God) cannot bear bad fruit. A bad tree (Our flesh, us apart from God) cannot bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17-19). God says that our righteousness (from the flesh), is like dirty rags (Isaiah 64:6). Jesus said that we can do nothing (good implied), without Him (John 15:5).

You see, 'what do we have that we did not receive, and if we did receive it, why do we boast as if we didn't?' (1 Corinthians 4:7-8). We don't get to claim any merit for justification from our flesh, because our flesh is incapable of producing good fruit. And the Spirit gets credit for what the Spirit does, even through us. We give God the glory because He actually deserves it.

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to His law. For example, by being a doer of good works we are testifying about God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God’s other character traits in accordance with God’s order character traits. For God to be righteous does not just mean that He is a doer of righteous works, but that every righteous work is directed towards being in His likeness, that every righteous work brings glory to Him by testifying about His righteousness, and that every righteous work is God in us and us in Christ. God is not a commander of filthy rags and does not hold our righteous works in contempt after calling for us to be doers of them all throughout the Bible, but rather the righteous works of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

Yes, I agree, but this does not in any way contribute to our being justified, right? We have all failed that test already. Agreed? Remember, our lives are a package deal. If we've sinned one time, we are completely helpless to contribute anything towards our justification.

Doing righteous works has absolutely nothing to do with contributing anything towards becoming righteous, but rather being a doer of righteous works is what it means to be righteous. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God’s law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God’s law is righteous even as they are righteous. If we sin once, then that does not mean that we have failed that test because God’s law was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even though perfect obedience, but rather sinning once just means that we need to repent and return to obedience through faith.

Again, yes, the fruit of the Spirit is the benefit, the non legal benefit of our being conformed to Christlikeness. It's the fruit of the Spirit and is an evidence, not a merit.



Soyeong, I must admit, I have a hard time understanding what you mean half the time. Sometimes it sounds like your trying to sell a works based salvation, while other times you seem to recognize the difference between the fruit of the Spirit, evidence, and justification, the legality of our salvation. But just in case, I see them as distinct in context. One is the means of satisfying God's Holy standards and making peace between us and God, which only Jesus can do. To be positionally sanctified is justification. To be practically, or progressively sanctified, is becoming what God already reckons us to be "in Christ".

Dave

Works based salvation is the position that we are required to have first done sufficient works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is a position that I do not hold. Rather, my position is that we are required to choose to be a doer of good works because that is intrinsically part of the way to experience God’s gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, so that is part of the gift of salvation, not something that we need to have done first in order to earn it as the result. For example, Jesus graciously teaching us to honor our parents is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not honoring our parents.

 

[Dave]

Hello.

In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn’t say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe in. Our salvation is not just about having our sin atoned for,

Soy, justification is the topic, right? Being saved for us within the context of justification requires atonement for sin, and perfect righteousness. Justification speaks of the legality of our salvation.

To be saved means to be delivered. And that can be a much bigger topic than justification. We are delivered/saved from the penalty of sin, and the bondage of sin. Living that out, becoming what we are already reckoned (justification) to be in Him can be also be considered part of our salvation. But that's the filling of the Spirit and would still be an evidence with regards to justification, not a merit.

Remember Romans 10:1-4

but is also about being made to be like Christ by being a doer of his character traits in accordance with the example that he set for us to follow of how walk in obedience to God law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law (Acts 21:20).

The righteousness of God that justifies us is through faith in Jesus also. But the righteousness that you are speaking of is the evidence of salvation, not the justification of it. The Justification comes from what Jesus did for us. What justifies us before God was available to us before we were even born. We don't live it out to obtain it, we simply believe and it is given to us in a moment. The rest is evidences for us, being practically sanctified, not positionally sanctified.

We are "saved" by grace, through faith, in Jesus Christ, not of works, not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast. But being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and trying to establish your own righteousness, you have not submitted to the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. For Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe.

When we come to faith in Jesus, genuinely, Jesus places the Holy Spirit in us. That's the baptism that saves (justifies) us. Jesus is the baptizer, and the Holy Spirit is the agent of that baptism. The Holy Spirit is God's seal on us. That seal cannot be broken except by God, which He promises that He will never do. Everything that happens after that is an evidence, good or bad. That evidence is for us, God already knows. At that moment in time of that spiritual baptism, we are placed into the Body of Christ. That's a Spiritual Body, the true Church, that no earthly institution can lay claim to. At that moment, the righteousness of God is imputed to us. Not in doses, but all at once as a direct result of that union with Jesus ("in Christ"). The righteousness of God, that being what Jesus did, is given to us in that moment. At that same moment, our sin is atoned for, past present and future because of Jesus' death on the cross for atonement for us. At that moment, we die with Christ Jesus spiritually, and are raised up with Him spiritually, thus being born again. At that moment we are complete in Him, and lacking nothing. Being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't mean receiving more of Him, rather it means being more under the control of Him, being guided by Him in our daily lives, thus living out what God already legally reckons us to be "in Him". This is the fruit of the Spirit, the works that James claims always accompanies a genuine faith. Evidence. The merit was paid by Jesus.

BTW, water baptism is a symbolic, public testimony after the fact of that spiritual immersion, that is, our being placed into Christ.

God’s law contains instructions for what to do when we sin, so we can continue to be a doer of the law by following those instructions.

Being a doer of the Law doesn't justify us before Him. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,", remember?

God is not a commander of filthy rags and does not hold our righteous works in contempt after calling for us to be doers of them all throughout the Bible, but rather the righteous works of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

The only works that one can claim as merit are the ones from the flesh, those are called dirty rags by God. The flesh can only produce sin. That's what Paul said. The good works are an undeserved gift from Him and not a meritable work for us to claim. "For what do you have that you did not receive....".

Doing righteous works has absolutely nothing to do with contributing anything towards becoming righteous, but rather being a doer of righteous works is what it means to be righteous.

I'm not sure what your point is since the context is justification.

If we sin once, then that does not mean that we have failed that test because God’s law was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even though perfect obedience, but rather sinning once just means that we need to repent and return to obedience through faith.

God's Law is the standard for righteousness, and that standard demands perfect obedience as I have shown. A just and Holy God cannot wink at sin. No OT saint that you claim were justified and declared righteous by God could be in the presence of God until after the cross. There's a reason for that. Adam and Eve were removed from God's presence because of one sin.

Works based salvation is the position that we are required to have first done sufficient works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is a position that I do not hold. Rather, my position is that we are required to choose to be a doer of good works because that is intrinsically part of the way to experience God’s gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, so that is part of the gift of salvation, not something that we need to have done first in order to earn it as the result. For example, Jesus graciously teaching us to honor our parents is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not honoring our parents.

Soy, that's evidence, right?

Do you believe that justification is instantaneous, or a process?

What do you believe justifies a man before God?

Dave

 

[Dave]

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."—Romans 5.1

Past tense "justified" "having been".

Righteousness Imputed
Righteousness Imputed | Bible Topics

Righteousness of God, The
Righteousness of God, The | Bible Topics

Justification before God
Justification before God | Bible Topics

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[prism]

..

 

[Carbon]

It is my understanding that Catholicism sees the fruit of the Spirit as the "righteousness of God" that justifies us. Thus the process...but this is not what the Bible means when it speaks of the righteousness of God that justifies. It was His (Jesus) righteousness demonstrated, for Jesus is Just, and the Justifier for all who believe. I believe that scripture is clear in this matter in many ways, one of them being the way it often pits our "efforts", or works, against our Fathers grace by faith (Romans 10:1-4 to name one).

While it is true that a living faith manifests itself with good works, I would call that a necessary evidence of salvation (our claims before men, and belief of being justified...James 2), but not a merit for justification by any means. Evidence vs. merit. That's the difference between the correct Biblical understanding, and Catholicism in my opinion. The scripture in question is always warning about self deception (You can tell a tree by it's fruit--evidence), not falling short of earning our justification, which is impossible for man to do. Understanding the nature of God, His perfect attributes, goes a long way towards understanding this. The Law, like Him, require perfect obedience. What is impossible for man is possible for God...Jesus said 'I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it'...every sin is a transgression of the Law...if we transgressed the Law at one point, we have transgressed it at every point.

It's the motive that separates legalism from grace. If a person trusts in their own works for justification, even in part, they are under the Law and will be found guilty by the perfect standards of the Law (you who want to be under the Law, are you not aware of what the Law says?...therefore, no man can be justified by the Law, for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin.)

The truth is, as Macarthur has said, I'm no more righteous today than I was the first day that I believed, as far as justification is concerned.

Presupposing the response, I just wanted to touch on this, as it is important. Paul, within the context of justification, did in fact separate works from grace as he said that if it is of grace, it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. He also said quite clearly that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, not of ourselves (Eph 2).

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now you could post scripture, that when interpreted on an island, can seem to contradict the scripture that I posted above, but I guarantee you, that the context of those passages that you post will be about evidence, not justification.

Dave

Nice!

 

[Carbon]

Someone can become more or less righteous:

They can? How so? Please explain. Those two passages you gave have nothing to do with "the state (declaration) of righteousnesses," so please, try again.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned,

It seems your beliefs are salvation by works?

 

[Dave]

I think that Soy may be frustrated and possibly left this discussion. It's hard for me to leave any statement open ended, when at a glance, someone can interpret it as a works based salvation. That's why, even though Soy did state that he didn't believe or support a works based salvation, some of his statements didn't seem to match that sentiment. That may have been just a language barrier thing. I hope Soy understands that my neurotic self must clear those things up for anyone reading or else I'll go crazy...or crazier.

Welcome to the discussion, Carbon. And thanks for the support.

Dave

 

[Carbon]

I think that Soy may be frustrated and possibly left this discussion. It's hard for me to leave any statement open ended, when at a glance, someone can interpret it as a works based salvation. That's why, even though Soy did state that he didn't believe or support a works based salvation, some of his statements didn't seem to match that sentiment. That may have been just a language barrier thing. I hope Soy understands that my neurotic self must clear those things up for anyone reading or else I'll go crazy...or crazier.

Welcome to the discussion, Carbon. And thanks for the support.

Dave

Thank you. Blessings

 

[Soyeong]

I think that Soy may be frustrated and possibly left this discussion. It's hard for me to leave any statement open ended, when at a glance, someone can interpret it as a works based salvation. That's why, even though Soy did state that he didn't believe or support a works based salvation, some of his statements didn't seem to match that sentiment. That may have been just a language barrier thing. I hope Soy understands that my neurotic self must clear those things up for anyone reading or else I'll go crazy...or crazier.

Welcome to the discussion, Carbon. And thanks for the support.

Dave

I’m not frustrated, just traveling, so responses might be slow.

 

[Soyeong]

They can? How so? Please explain. Those two passages you gave have nothing to do with "the state (declaration) of righteousnesses," so please, try again.

While the only way for someone to to be declared righteous is through faith, what it means for someone to be declared righteous is for their life to be directed at being in God’s likeness by being a doer of His righteousness. Being declared righteous doesn’t mean that we only do what is righteous all the time, but that that is our goal and that we repent when we fall short, which people can be at greater or lesser degrees.

It seems your beliefs are salvation by works?

Salvation by works is the position that we are required to have first done enough works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is a position that I do not hold, rather Titus 2:14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so my position is that God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."—Romans 5.1

Past tense "justified" "having been".

Righteousness Imputed
Righteousness Imputed | Bible Topics

Righteousness of God, The
Righteousness of God, The | Bible Topics

Justification before God
Justification before God | Bible Topics

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Hebrew 11 lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice, neither of which was Genesis 15:6. So Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-5 when he obeyed the call to go to the place that he would receive as an inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-8, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he offered Isaac (James 2:21-24, Hebrews 11:17).

 

[prism]

While the only way for someone to to be declared righteous is through faith, what it means for someone to be declared righteous is...

..Is for them to abandon their own righteousness and embrace the righteousness offerered as a free gift through the redemption found in Jesus Christ...

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9 KJV

 

[Dave]

Hey Soyeong,

You're post # 13 noted in the upper right hand corner of that post. I believe that was Carbon who made those statements.

 

[Dave]

Hebrew 11 lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice, neither of which was Genesis 15:6. So Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-5 when he obeyed the call to go to the place that he would receive as an inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-8, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he offered Isaac (James 2:21-24, Hebrews 11:17).

Soyeong

James is describing the difference between a living faith, and a dead faith. He's speaking of the evidence of a genuine faith that justifies. James is describing how works demonstrate a genuine faith. That's evidence. Read Hebrews 11 in that same light. The only righteousness acceptable to God is perfect righteousness. That's what Jesus did during His incarnate ministry as fully man and fully God.

Paul clears the matter up nicely. Look at Romans 4:1-7...

Romans 4: 1-7 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

Romans 10:3-4 says it this way.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


Dave