Sermon on women in worship/fellowship hits intriguing snag in service wrap-up

[EarlyActs]

I recently heard a fair treatment of I Tim 2B--quietness and dress for women; not having authority over men, etc. There were sensible qualifications, especially pointing out that the passage was particularly about worship times, as opposed to general life. It was also quite interesting to hear that 'good works' were the 'dress code.'

The church has an after-sermon wrap up by a leader other than the one who spoke. These are often the person who preached the previous week, and usually useful. On this occasion, a woman (!) raised her hand and asked for prayer for the 4 Jewish girl hostages in Gaza. For that matter, we should pray for anyone in a hostage situation, and as I recall, the group had prayed for CA victims at the beginning of the service.

It did surprise me, though, that this one item would be especially prayed for, and it was. The teacher said we needed to remember 'they are God's people.' Apparently modern agnostic Israel's land claims are right up on the same level as evangelism. That same week there were some 1500 families waiting for their J6 member to be released. The NC people had waited months for help and had just heard that Fema help was to expire, and during difficult weather. And of course, millions in LA. But these were not prayed for especially.

Does anyone find this burning passion for the land of Israel in NT teaching? So that when some agnostic Jews go to a secular rock concert and get captured, the NT would say 'they are God's people' and need our prayer--for that reason?
What I mean is that it could be a case of a woman exercising authority in a misguided way that was never countered.

 

[Arial]

The teacher said we needed to remember 'they are God's people.' Apparently modern agnostic Israel's land claims are right up on the same level as evangelism. That same week there were some 1500 families waiting for their J6 member to be released. The NC people had waited months for help and had just heard that Fema help was to expire, and during difficult weather. And of course, millions in LA. But these were not prayed for especially.

Does anyone find this burning passion for the land of Israel in NT teaching? So that when some agnostic Jews go to a secular rock concert and get captured, the NT would say 'they are God's people' and need our prayer--for that reason?
What I mean is that it could be a case of a woman exercising authority in a misguided way that was never countered.

As to exercising authority in a misguided way it is unclear from the post that she had authority. It should have been those in authority that countered what she said. Chances are, given all the dispensationalism in the modern church, the authority agreed with her. (I am not saying they should not have prayed for them, but the statement implying that all Jews are God's people, and even further implication, that only God's people should be prayed for.

In D'ism Israel becomes the central focus of the entire Bible and of redemption. Therefore, "whatever Israel does is good and we are all for it." And I am not saying they have done anything wrong. But Israel is concerned with their territory and position of a geo/political state---same as all nations---not God and certainly not Christ.

 

[makesends]

While I have to admit to a huge, even a burning, desire in me for political Israel's well-being, and particularly for any physical descendent of Jacob, or anyone added-in to the [physical] political nation, I can't say for sure that it is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty, (or, at least, my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament), and so an assumed natural brotherhood with them, (whether that be logically done or not) —while I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I say— I have to admit that it is my feelings, and in a category of a sort of patriotism, (which is another subject concerning, "the 'corporate' Body", I think), and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying myself there are not who I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

I consider them my brothers. Is that wrong? I don't know.

 

[EarlyActs]

While I have to admit to a huge, even a burning, desire in me for political Israel's well-being, and particularly for any physical descendent of Jacob, or anyone added-in to the [physical] political nation, I can't say for sure that it is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty, (or, at least, my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament), and so an assumed natural brotherhood with them, (whether that be logically done or not) —while I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I say— I have to admit that it is my feelings, and in a category of a sort of patriotism, (which is another subject concerning, "the 'corporate' Body", I think), and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying myself there are not who I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

I consider them my brothers. Is that wrong? I don't know.

The first paragraph has only two periods. Could you redo it?

 

[Mr GLee]

Christ as promised in Isaiah 62 changed the name of His wife. Previously born-again Isreal, changed to born again Christian a new name to represent the God of all nations. Chrisitan a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations.

The reformation had come not all trusted sola scriptura (all things written in the Law and prophets) but continued to look at the things seen puffing up each other above sola scriptura That shadow will stay in effect till the last day. God protecting the apple of his eye, sola scriptura.

I figure for that reason I think we should support the historical Isreal.

The same spiritual battle Isaac against Ishmael will continue till the end when Satan is released for a sort while to deceive all the nations God is Jewish man as King of kings .

 

[makesends]

The first paragraph has only two periods. Could you redo it?

Lol, you'd have problems reading John Owen and a few other old dead guys.

But, I can simplify it.

ORIGINAL:
makesends said:
While I have to admit to a huge, even a burning, desire in me for political Israel's well-being, and particularly for any physical descendent of Jacob, or anyone added-in to the [physical] political nation, I can't say for sure that it is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty, (or, at least, my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament), and so an assumed natural brotherhood with them, (whether that be logically done or not) —while I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I say— I have to admit that it is my feelings, and in a category of a sort of patriotism, (which is another subject concerning, "the 'corporate' Body", I think), and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying myself there are not who I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

I consider them my brothers. Is that wrong? I don't know.

SIMPLIFIED:
I can't say for sure that my desire for political Israel is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty. Or it could be that my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament has produced an assumed natural brotherhood with them.

While I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I have to admit that it is my feelings, and that it is a sort of patriotism, and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying turn out not to be what I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

I consider them my brothers. Is that wrong? I don't know.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Lol, you'd have problems reading John Owen and a few other old dead guys.

But, I can simplify it.

ORIGINAL:
makesends said:
While I have to admit to a huge, even a burning, desire in me for political Israel's well-being, and particularly for any physical descendent of Jacob, or anyone added-in to the [physical] political nation, I can't say for sure that it is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty, (or, at least, my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament), and so an assumed natural brotherhood with them, (whether that be logically done or not) —while I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I say— I have to admit that it is my feelings, and in a category of a sort of patriotism, (which is another subject concerning, "the 'corporate' Body", I think), and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying myself there are not who I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

I consider them my brothers. Is that wrong? I don't know.

SIMPLIFIED:
I can't say for sure that my desire for political Israel is anything more than the result of a sort of assumed shared admiration of God Almighty. Or it could be that my own admiration for the God that spoke so tenderly of them, and dealt with them so particularly in the Old Testament has produced an assumed natural brotherhood with them.

While I have to admit to that desire for political Israel's well-being, I have to admit that it is my feelings, and that it is a sort of patriotism, and not altogether trustworthy. Yet, I can't deny them, and if those with whom I find myself identifying turn out not to be what I take them to be, I will feel 'sick unto death'.

May I offer?

They are our cousins, if not physically they would be so spiritually as the Jewish people, the Hebrews, are who brought forth the Messiah.

They aren't any different than an unbelieving family member that we want to see in the fold, so to speak, for the sake of Christ.

We support, I support, their right to exist, because this is about whether they have a right to existence itself, a right to self determination. I believe they do, both as a nation and as individuals.

 

[makesends]

May I offer?

They are our cousins, if not physically they would be so spiritually as the Jewish people, the Hebrews, are who brought forth the Messiah.

They aren't any different than an unbelieving family member that we want to see in the fold, so to speak, for the sake of Christ.

We support, I support, their right to exist, because this is about whether they have a right to existence itself, a right to self determination. I believe they do, both as a nation and as individuals.

This is the buning mountain on fire which splashed into the sea.

I like that. I have always considered my cousins family.

I'm not so sure about your last sentence, but that is further off-topic than we already are, here. (Please don't tell the mods )

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus the Son of man, the prophet apostle when he was given words from the Holy Father "mankind must be born again". He was not leaving himself out. Marvel not.

In that way Jesus is not ashamed to be a brother in the new family of God as to whosever that does the will of the Holy Father

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[makesends]

Jesus the Son of man, the prophet apostle when he was given words from the Holy Father "mankind must be born again". He was not leaving himself out. Marvel not.

In that way Jesus is not ashamed to be a brother in the new family of God as to whosever that does the will of the Holy Father

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

To avoid running afoul of the rules, begin by explaining how you come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God, by use of Scripture interpreted according to Orthodoxy so we have a common beginning point with you. We need to have some common point of reference in order to debate, so that you are not just asserting and not just interpreting verses according to your presumed use of them. If you wish to prove something unorthodox it needs to be done by orderly debate, and not by unintelligible word upon word upon presumed use of Scripture. Otherwise, it will look like mere heresy and proselytizing.

For example, if Mark 3:35 and Matthew 12:50 prove that when Jesus said that those doing the will of his Father are his brother, sister and mother, it means that he is only human and not God, you need to show us how, by reason that begins with understanding common to us all, and with Scripture on which Orthodoxy DOES agree with you. Otherwise, it is just assertion, and in your case, heretical assertion, if indeed you are saying that Jesus is not God.

EDIT: Mr GLee, it may be best if you were to start your own OP, so as not to be hijacking a thread. But if you do, please do so according to what I said above. If you have any questions, ask any of the staff by Direct Messaging.

 

[EarlyActs]

May I offer?

They are our cousins, if not physically they would be so spiritually as the Jewish people, the Hebrews, are who brought forth the Messiah.

They aren't any different than an unbelieving family member that we want to see in the fold, so to speak, for the sake of Christ.

We support, I support, their right to exist, because this is about whether they have a right to existence itself, a right to self determination. I believe they do, both as a nation and as individuals.

If we don't affirm their right to exist, then we have to go back to all culture many centuries and undo things. Do we fix what the Mayans did, too? That won't happen. But even as a country trying to be self-determining, they may have made a mess of things, which is their problem.

I don't think there is a spiritual brotherhood when there is opposition to the message about truth. It's just coincidental. Notice how desperate they are to claim a connection so long it is nothing like what the NT says. It would be good to review the media impact which novelist G Elliot had on all this in the 1800s England. So far as I know, she was the first person to validate their ancient prophecy so long as it had no connection to what the NT says is going on. This contradiction has survived to modern times: in the 90s Trinity Broadcasting would show the movie EXODUS once a month on Sundays as its feature, even though the two Israeli terrorists in the story running the ship were atheists and Marxists.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If we don't affirm their right to exist, then we have to go back to all culture many centuries and undo things. Do we fix what the Mayans did, too? That won't happen. But even as a country trying to be self-determining, they may have made a mess of things, which is their problem. ..

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

If we don't affirm Israel's right to exist I suppose we are siding with Hamas and Fatah and the PA and their idea's about killing the Jews.

In the main here, we are dealing with geopolitics not religion; religion only comes into play because one group thinks they are commanded by God to kill Jews and the Jews are an ethnic group who are an extreme minority on planet earth.

I don't think there is a spiritual brotherhood when there is opposition to the message about truth.

They are Jesus' blood.

Care for the Hebrews, the peculiar people God chose to bring us the Messiah and our salvation, just is, it exists.

We don't stop caring for people in our family just because they don't believe what we do, in fact we pray for their salvation daily.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather we are one family, one brotherhood. This means we aren't racists, in general.

Not everyone in the world believes what we do, but we still care for what happens to them, especially the people of our Lord when they are being wronged by people who hate them as a matter of their belief-set.

Blessed are the peacemakers, as Scripture says.

t's just coincidental. Notice how desperate they are to claim a connection so long it is nothing like what the NT says. It would be good to review the media impact which novelist G Elliot had on all this in the 1800s England. So far as I know, she was the first person to validate their ancient prophecy so long as it had no connection to what the NT says is going on. This contradiction has survived to modern times: in the 90s Trinity Broadcasting would show the movie EXODUS once a month on Sundays as its feature, even though the two Israeli terrorists in the story running the ship were atheists and Marxists.

I don't see anyone "desperate" for anything to be honest, outside of a few people who appear to look for any reason to prop up their hate.

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, I have never seen Trinity Broadcasting or this movie Exodus, in the 90's I was not a Christian.

It doesn't sound like a good idea to watch this if they are casting Israeli's as terrorists and Marxist's... Talk about lies and falsehoods, I thank you for warning me this is not a movie made in a good spirit.

 

[makesends]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

If we don't affirm Israel's right to exist I suppose we are siding with Hamas and Fatah and the PA and their idea's about killing the Jews.

In the main here, we are dealing with geopolitics not religion; religion only comes into play because one group thinks they are commanded by God to kill Jews and the Jews are an ethnic group who are an extreme minority on planet earth.



EarlyActs said:
I don't think there is a spiritual brotherhood when there is opposition to the message about truth.

This is a little ironic. This same principle applies within the group we call the church, though some are only professors of truth.

They are Jesus' blood.

They are Jesus' blood indeed, and that is no small thing.

Care for the Hebrews, the peculiar people God chose to bring us the Messiah and our salvation, just is, it exists.

We don't stop caring for people in our family just because they don't believe what we do, in fact we pray for their salvation daily.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather we are one family, one brotherhood. This means we aren't racists, in general.

Not everyone in the world believes what we do, but we still care for what happens to them, especially the people of our Lord when they are being wronged by people who hate them as a matter of their belief-set.

Blessed are the peacemakers, as Scripture says.

There is, I think, at some level a real and particular love of God for the descendants of Jacob. I don't think that is only in my mind. But I suppose that could be just leftover thinking from my younger years steeped in Dispensationalism. Still, my heart yearns for them.

Regardless, unless someone can prove to me why not, I say that antisemitism is of the devil, a horror of an attitude, and not just some odd phenomenon, but a driven, creepy, hatred for all things belonging to God. I find the divide between the world and the church there. I am on their side, even if Israel is not ostensibly on God's side, because, the devil and his slaves hate them.

I don't see anyone "desperate" for anything to be honest, outside of a few people who appear to look for any reason to prop up their hate.

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, I have never seen Trinity Broadcasting or this movie Exodus, in the 90's I was not a Christian.

It doesn't sound like a good idea to watch this if they are casting Israeli's as terrorists and Marxist's... Talk about lies and falsehoods, I thank you for warning me this is not a movie made in a good spirit.

FWIW I read the book when I was a teenager, haven't seen the movie. I don't recall any Israelis cast as terrorists or Marxists. I was shocked at the pagan attitudes of those struggling for freedom from outsiders, when all I had heard about at the point was Israel as more or less Orthodox Jew. I would maybe characterize them as wild, though not quite uncontrolled, fierce, unabashed, unapologetic, clannish.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. I don't think that is only in my mind

It's not. When I was saved my every attitude changed towards them. This feeling is from God, I know it is.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

If we don't affirm Israel's right to exist I suppose we are siding with Hamas and Fatah and the PA and their idea's about killing the Jews.

In the main here, we are dealing with geopolitics not religion; religion only comes into play because one group thinks they are commanded by God to kill Jews and the Jews are an ethnic group who are an extreme minority on planet earth.




They are Jesus' blood.

Care for the Hebrews, the peculiar people God chose to bring us the Messiah and our salvation, just is, it exists.

We don't stop caring for people in our family just because they don't believe what we do, in fact we pray for their salvation daily.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather we are one family, one brotherhood. This means we aren't racists, in general.

Not everyone in the world believes what we do, but we still care for what happens to them, especially the people of our Lord when they are being wronged by people who hate them as a matter of their belief-set.

Blessed are the peacemakers, as Scripture says.



I don't see anyone "desperate" for anything to be honest, outside of a few people who appear to look for any reason to prop up their hate.

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, I have never seen Trinity Broadcasting or this movie Exodus, in the 90's I was not a Christian.

It doesn't sound like a good idea to watch this if they are casting Israeli's as terrorists and Marxist's... Talk about lies and falsehoods, I thank you for warning me this is not a movie made in a good spirit.

Re the movie
It wasn’t Christian which is my point. Yet the network ran all the major Christian names shows for years —Robertson, Lindsey, Ankerberg

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

If we don't affirm Israel's right to exist I suppose we are siding with Hamas and Fatah and the PA and their idea's about killing the Jews.

In the main here, we are dealing with geopolitics not religion; religion only comes into play because one group thinks they are commanded by God to kill Jews and the Jews are an ethnic group who are an extreme minority on planet earth.




They are Jesus' blood.

Care for the Hebrews, the peculiar people God chose to bring us the Messiah and our salvation, just is, it exists.

We don't stop caring for people in our family just because they don't believe what we do, in fact we pray for their salvation daily.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather we are one family, one brotherhood. This means we aren't racists, in general.

Not everyone in the world believes what we do, but we still care for what happens to them, especially the people of our Lord when they are being wronged by people who hate them as a matter of their belief-set.

Blessed are the peacemakers, as Scripture says.



I don't see anyone "desperate" for anything to be honest, outside of a few people who appear to look for any reason to prop up their hate.

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, I have never seen Trinity Broadcasting or this movie Exodus, in the 90's I was not a Christian.

It doesn't sound like a good idea to watch this if they are casting Israeli's as terrorists and Marxist's... Talk about lies and falsehoods, I thank you for warning me this is not a movie made in a good spirit.

Re the religion vs the geopolitics
It would be religious for the Jews bc of what they believe the promise to Abraham to be. The intriguing thing is that that (land promise) not show in Galatians 3, or really anywhere in the NT as the promise.

Yet as of 3000 years ago, they were there and thriving. Hence my question about how much shall we redo, how far to look back? 500 or 5000 years?

 

[EarlyActs]

A conservative rabbi (Prager) recently said what can be found at Messianic Jew fellowships: that the Trinity is God, the Torah and the land. I would say this does not reflect NT theology.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

If we don't affirm Israel's right to exist I suppose we are siding with Hamas and Fatah and the PA and their idea's about killing the Jews.

In the main here, we are dealing with geopolitics not religion; religion only comes into play because one group thinks they are commanded by God to kill Jews and the Jews are an ethnic group who are an extreme minority on planet earth.




They are Jesus' blood.

Care for the Hebrews, the peculiar people God chose to bring us the Messiah and our salvation, just is, it exists.

We don't stop caring for people in our family just because they don't believe what we do, in fact we pray for their salvation daily.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather we are one family, one brotherhood. This means we aren't racists, in general.

Not everyone in the world believes what we do, but we still care for what happens to them, especially the people of our Lord when they are being wronged by people who hate them as a matter of their belief-set.

Blessed are the peacemakers, as Scripture says.



I don't see anyone "desperate" for anything to be honest, outside of a few people who appear to look for any reason to prop up their hate.

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, I have never seen Trinity Broadcasting or this movie Exodus, in the 90's I was not a Christian.

It doesn't sound like a good idea to watch this if they are casting Israeli's as terrorists and Marxist's... Talk about lies and falsehoods, I thank you for warning me this is not a movie made in a good spirit.

Re self-determining but failed
I don’t know why but many people seem to miss the thing in these discussions which is truly an issue: that instead of actions or behavior , the main concern is a race identity.

You may know of someone like I do, who is against a race. They have a terrible time referring to specific actions that are poor decisions, and complain of the race.

This can be done for the race too, so that the race is immune from criticism. No matter what. It is really the same problem in two forms.

 

[EarlyActs]

A conservative rabbi (Prager) recently said what can be found at Messianic Jew fellowships: that the Trinity is God, the Torah and the land. I would say this does not reflect NT theology.

I meant the trinity of Judaism in this observation.