Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief!

[brightfame52]

One of the most disappointing things about religion these days, that goes in the name of Christianity, and claims to believe in Christ, and what He accomplished on the Cross by suffering and dying for sin, is that it didn't guarantee no ones salvation. Im going to show that scripture declares without a shadow of doubt that Christs death, burial and resurrection save a person even while they are unbelievers, and enemies. Even then that God himself is reconciled to them.

The first scripture is Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That's being saved from Gods penalty of sin and received into His favor even while an enemy to God!

For peace was made for Paul, as well as other elect persons by the blood /death of Christ's cross Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect, God forbid!

 

[Arial]

One of the most disappointing things about religion these days, that goes in the name of Christianity, and claims to believe in Christ, and what He accomplished on the Cross by suffering and dying for sin, is that it didn't guarantee no ones salvation. Im going to show that scripture declares without a shadow of doubt that Christs death, burial and resurrection save a person even while they are unbelievers, and enemies. Even then that God himself is reconciled to them.

The reconciliation of the elect is guaranteed. That is what predestination means. You have taken all the meaning out of Romans 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he predestined, these he also called; whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also gloried.

You also have taken all meaning out of:
Gal 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:5-9

5---even when we were dead in our trespasses he, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Josheb]

One of the most disappointing things about religion these days, that goes in the name of Christianity, and claims to believe in Christ, and what He accomplished on the Cross by suffering and dying for sin, is that it didn't guarantee no ones salvation. Im going to show that scripture declares without a shadow of doubt that Christs death, burial and resurrection save a person even while they are unbelievers, and enemies. Even then that God himself is reconciled to them.

The first scripture is Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That's being saved from Gods penalty of sin and received into His favor even while an enemy to God!

For peace was made for Paul, as well as other elect persons by the blood /death of Christ's cross Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect, God forbid!

How do you avoid the problems inherent in the kind of strict determinism underlying this op's position?

 

[makesends]

One of the most disappointing things about religion these days, that goes in the name of Christianity, and claims to believe in Christ, and what He accomplished on the Cross by suffering and dying for sin, is that it didn't guarantee no ones salvation. Im going to show that scripture declares without a shadow of doubt that Christs death, burial and resurrection save a person even while they are unbelievers, and enemies. Even then that God himself is reconciled to them.

The first scripture is Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That's being saved from Gods penalty of sin and received into His favor even while an enemy to God!

For peace was made for Paul, as well as other elect persons by the blood /death of Christ's cross Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect, God forbid!

All this time, have you been thinking that we who differ from your notion of forgiveness of sins and redemption, etc, before we were born, that we believe that didn't guarantee anyone's salvation?

Honestly?

What you posit here sounds like what you have been trying to say to us for so long. Yet, you offer it against what Arminians believe. If you don't think that is what we believe, do you think that is the only two positions on the question?

We believe that the Elect are by no means the Reprobate. But that does not mean that we became believers before we were regenerated, nor that we were regenerated at the Cross. The salvation of the Elect was accomplished at the cross, effected in time at regeneration. If you want to say that the salvation of the elect was effected at the cross, why not go the whole way and say that we had gone to Heaven and glorified when Christ died?

Were the reprobate also in their infinite punishment as soon as Christ died?

 

[brightfame52]

The reconciliation of the elect is guaranteed.

Yes accomplished at the Cross legally its a done deal Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unregenerate], we were reconciled[aorist past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

The reconciliation of the elect is guaranteed. That is what predestination means.

Im not discussing predestination right now

You also have taken all meaning out of:
Gal 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Im not talking about faith right now but reconciliation by the death of Christ b4 faith and while an enemy. Justification by faith comes later. The elect by the death of Christ were legally reconciled to God without Faith in Christ and while a unregenerate enemy.

 

[brightfame52]

All this time, have you been thinking that we who differ from your notion of forgiveness of sins and redemption, etc, before we were born, that we believe that didn't guarantee anyone's salvation?

Sorry dont understand you. Im just showing that the elect benefit legally from the death of Christ even while an active enemy and in unbelief.

What you posit here sounds like what you have been trying to say to us for so long. Yet, you offer it against what Arminians believe. If you don't think that is what we believe, do you think that is the only two positions on the question?

I mean I cant judge what you believe until I read it from your post, Im showing how even without faith the death of Christ for the elect was legally applied as a benefit,

We believe that the Elect are by no means the Reprobate

I agree

But that does not mean that we became believers before we were regenerated

Of course not I agree, why did you even say that ? I never posted such

nor that we were regenerated at the Cross.

Of course not

. The salvation of the Elect was accomplished at the cross, effected in time at regeneration.

You have different phases of salvation, the legal phase was effected at the cross, the vital phase that is regeneration is later in time

If you want to say that the salvation of the elect was effected at the cross, why not go the whole way and say that we had gone to Heaven and glorified when Christ died?

Because Salvation has different phases

Were the reprobate also in their infinite punishment as soon as Christ died?

I dont know what you talking about, please stay with my topic about the elect

 

[brightfame52]

How do you avoid the problems inherent in the kind of strict determinism underlying this op's position?

Huh ? You lost me. Do you understand the OP position? Rehearse it with me please

 

[Arial]

Yes accomplished at the Cross legally its a done deal Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unregenerate], we were reconciled[aorist past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The way of reconciliation was a done deal at the cross. An unregenerate person has not been reconciled to God. Unless you take all meaning out of the word reconcile also.

That passage is directly describing what we were at the time of reconciliation. Reconciliation occurred while we were enemies. It is the means of reconciliation that Jesus accomplished on the cross. Nothing of the grammar specifies when reconciliation is applied or how individuals come to participate in it. It speaks objectively and covenantally, not instrumentally

Look at the verses that precede verse 10.



Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
You can't divorce verse 10 from what Paul has already said. He deals with justification (our legal standing) through faith Then he adds another layer, that of reconciliation:

• v.9 — “having now been justified by His blood”
• v.10 — “we were reconciled by the death of His Son”
• v.11 — “we now have received the reconciliation (ἐλάβομεν)” = we received (aorist active)

This explicitly introduces a subjective reception (the personal, experiential receiving of something that already exists objectively). Reconciliation accomplished on the cross. Reconciliation received. If reconciliation were already legally applied to individuals at the cross, verse 11 would be redundant.

Reconciliation was objectively accomplished and legally grounded in Christs death and is personally received in union with Christ.

 

[Arial]

Im not discussing predestination right now

Neither am I. I simply told you that predestination means something is guaranteed, in this case reconciliation. The cross guarantees reconciliation of the elect to God. But it does not make them reconciled before they are reconciled. They were enemies of God when he brought them to reconciliation. They were dead in sin when he brought them to life.

Im not talking about faith right now but reconciliation by the death of Christ b4 faith and while an enemy. Justification by faith comes later. The elect by the death of Christ were legally reconciled to God without Faith in Christ and while a unregenerate enemy

Paul settles the matter of justification through faith several sentences before he begins the discussion on reconciliation. Without justification there is no reconciliation. Justification is through faith. It comes chronologically before reconciliation. It is what applies reconciliation. And when you declare that the unregenerate are reconciled to God even while they are unregenerate you deny the scriptures I gave to show that you are doing that and instead of addressing the contradictions you make, you simply say you aren't talking about it. If even one clear scripture must be ignored like that which is directly connected to the subject of reconciliation, there is something wrong with your interpretation.

 

[brightfame52]

An unregenerate person has not been reconciled to God.

That flys in the face of Rom 5:10

 

[Arial]

That flys in the face of Rom 5:10

You are interpreting Romans 5:10 wrong because you isolate it from its context and make it fit what you think it ought to be saying. The fact that I gave you a simple exegesis of it, grammatically and in context, means nothing to you. You can't even counter the exegesis. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[brightfame52]

You are interpreting Romans 5:10 wrong because you isolate it from its context and make it fit what you think it ought to be saying

I disagree with you. They were reconciled to God, while enemies, by the death of the Son of God Rom 5:10 for it cant be stated any clearer.

 

[Josheb]

Huh ? You lost me.

That's ok. It happens.

Do you understand the OP position?

Yes.

Rehearse it with me please

The op states Jesus died to save people while they were in unbelief and states, "God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect...." You have written a pair of ops in which it was asserted saved people were never under wrath, even though they had previously been rebellious unbelieving sinners.

Whether you realize it or not, that is determinism.

It does not matter whether a person believes or doesn't believe because God has decided whether or not a person is an object of wrath. The objects of wrath cannot and will not ever believe because God has made them that way and those who are not objects of wrath cannot not-believe because God has made them such that they will believe whether they want to do so or not.

That's not only determinism, but that's also a bad monergism.

So, if you now understand, the question asked is,

How do you avoid the problems inherent in the kind of strict determinism underlying this op's position?

And if you're not seeing the determinism then perhaps you might reflect better on your position (instead of dismissing the premise or attacking the poster).




I ask this as a person who holds an atypical view that says the sinner's volition is irrelevant so we might have some common ground as far as the matter of the will goes. However, monergism is not "robot" theology or "puppet soteriology and you've got God making people one way or another before sin ever occurs. That is determinism and it's not classic, mainstream, orthodox monergism, either.

How are the problems inherent in the kind of strict determinism underlying this op's position avoided?


.

 

[makesends]

However, monergism is not "robot" theology or "puppet soteriology and you've got God making people one way or another before sin ever occurs. That is determinism and it's not classic, mainstream, orthodox monergism, either.

You say, "That is determinism..." Just curious —would you say "determinism is that"? I.e. is all determinism of that same route, necessarily that we are puppets/robots? I consider myself a determinist, but not what most people would define a determinist to be. I don't believe in robot/ puppet soteriology.

 

[brightfame52]

The op states Jesus died to save people while they were in unbelief and states, "God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect...

Yes because Christ death reconciled them to God while unbelieving enemies.

 

[Arial]

Yes because Christ death reconciled them to God while unbelieving enemies.

Is an unbelieving enemy in a state of being reconciled to God? Or are they an unbelieving enemy of God? They cannot be both at the same time.

The wording of your statements is confusing because in a sense they are true, but not in the sense that you mean, according to many previous posts. You remove the necessity of a sinner being joined to Christ in union with him. Without that union, the cross does nothing objectively. You remove the necessity of justification from reconciliation. And you remove the necessity of faith. In one post you defined faith as not a means of union with Christ but merely the way one receives the blessings, of what, according to you, they already have---reconciliation before they were ever born.

So, Christ's death reconciled them to God when they were unbelieving enemies. He made the dead in sin alive---regeneration.

In effect, removing faith, justification, and imputation (our sins to him and his righteousness to us) as necessary for reconciliation you have made the following objective works of Christ subjective removing the depth and width of their power and glory:

Substitution​

Ransom​

Propitiation​

Imputation​

Justification​

https://christcentered.community.fo...t-what-christ-actually-did-on-the-cross.3487/

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​

 

[Arial]

I disagree with you. They were reconciled to God, while enemies, by the death of the Son of God Rom 5:10 for it cant be stated any clearer.

If that is your position then go back to post #9 where I outline by view of Romans 5 and counter it point by point. You can't keep ignoring what others post and simply posting "I disagree. I'm right and you are wrong" and expect that to be seen as anything but opinion that refuses to change, to hear, to listen, to engage. If you are correct and I am wrong it should be easy enough for you to take apart my support for my position line by line.

Just taking one sentence out of the middle of an entire discourse by Paul and ignoring its context and grammatical structure, just shows that you know the context will destroy your assertion.

 

[Josheb]

I consider myself a determinist, but not what most people would define a determinist to be.

No, your views are exactly what most people consider determinist.

I don't believe in robot/ puppet soteriology.

You do; you just don't realize it.


You believe one act of creation, the first act, caused all other events in a singular cause-and-effect way. Creation is static and linear. You read WCF 3.1's to say, "I do agree that God has.... established second causes, though "liberty" is not a word I would incorporate into that thought." Yours is a view of creation in which "liberty or contingency" is established by God in a fixed manner. "I would not call, 'contingency', "determined conditions", though in my take of 3.1 they certainly are determined conditions." That is determinism. Contingencies are determined in your pov. What the WCF states is God did no violence to the contingency of secondary causes. Determining them would be doing violence.

"I think that "contingency" is not in itself the same sort of thing as counterfactuals, nor even 'possibilities'. To me, it only means that x is necessarily causal for y to result. So y is contingent on x. But speculating as to what would result, if z, while the results of z would be contingent on z, they are not actually contingent on z, anymore than counterfactuals have any basis, nor any use other than proposing bogus constructions, and mental exercises."​

"In spite of your meticulous defining to the term as used in the WCF, I still see their statement as valid even if God does meticulous causation. I'm not saying that I garner the notion of his meticulous causing of all things from the WCF, but that it allows for it. My reasoning for it does not come from the WCF, but from the simple logic of necessary implications of God's omnipotence as the uncaused causer (aka, First Cause)."​

In your view, the WCF "allows for meticulous causation." That phrase, "meticulous causation" is determinism, classic ordinary dictionary-definition determinism.

When these views are applied to salvation.... meticulous causation means God meticulously causes every aspect of salvation (and violence is, therefore, done to the human will). Whether prior to, or subsequent to regeneration, God is meticulously causing each and every even in each and every human's internal and external life. That is robot/puppet soteriology. Neither creation, nor humanity, is interactive with God. Every constituent aspect does only what God causes it to do. X causes y and z is contingent upon y only in the sense that God caused z as a meticulously caused event (never a consequence of any causation of design or volition). That is robot/puppet soteriology.

 

[Josheb]

Yes because Christ death reconciled them to God while unbelieving enemies.

Then you're a determinist.