Sabbath or Sunday? What did Jesus teach & show in scripture?

[ChristB4us]

Continued.....

That notably says that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, not the Mosaic Law, but rather Hebrews 8:10 says that the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law.

In context; there is no real indication of that.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

That is the departure from everything associated with the Old Covenant, including the Mosaic laws, because you cannot have the Old Covenant without the Mosaic laws.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The difference between the Old Covenant where the emphasis was on man to obtain salvation by, and the New Covenant is Jesus Christ will save all those that believe AND He as our Good Shepherd, will put His laws in our minds and in our hearts; He will do it.

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

No saved believer from Jewish background will need to tell Gentile believers anything about the Old Covenant, let alone the Mosaic Laws. God said He will do it. God's chosen people had their chance under the law and failed. New Covenant is God's turn now.

Believe Him. Believe that He has saved you and believe Him that He will put His laws in your minds and in your hearts. Jesus will do this.

to be continued...

 

[ChristB4us]

Continued again....

In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promises of a covenant that has already been ratified, so the New Covenant can't do away with our need to obey the Mosaic Law in connection with the promise.

When the emphasis was on the Jews to do the Mosaic laws under the Old Covenant to obtain salvation by; then how can the emphasis remain the same on Christians to do the Mosaic Laws under the New Covenant? How can the Jews that believe in Jesus Christ be convinced that keeping the laws to obtain salvation is no longer necessary?

Indeed, why did His disciples told the Gentiles believers that they were not under the commandment to keep the laws of Moses?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Now if you still believe Christians are to keep the laws of Moses, why then did the disciples were not careful just to do away with circumcision only since they were talking about both the needfulness for circumcision and to keep the law of Moses?

 

[Soyeong]

When you look at the Sermon on the Mount, He refers to the law of what the Jews have been taught but raise the bar higher as departing from what was taught, and so His example wasn't for His disciples to follow the law as if that was the example He was setting for others to follow, but to believe in Him to do His work in you so you can follow Him.

One example is the Jewish practice of oath making and finishing it; but as Jesus referred to this practice, He added not to even swear at all which Jews would do in showing their sincerity of finishing that oath.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Jesus explained why He dd not want any of His followers to make an oath to Him to make themselves good or to do good like following Him.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not do that. In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a direct quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", and in Matthew 5, he consistently preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by preceding it with "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not violating Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling what was written by correcting what the people had heard being wrongly taught about it and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

In Leviticus 19:12, it instruct to not swear falsely by God's name, so someone who was following the spirit of that law would understand that we are not to swear falsely whereas someone who was following the letter of that law would understand that we are free to swear falsely just as long as we swear by something other than God's name, which is the practice that Jesus was addressing in Matthew 5:33-37. So Jesus was speaking against the practice of intentionally swearing by something other than God's name in order to add the weight of a vow to what they were saying while giving themselves room to back out of it if they needed to, not against making oaths in general.

For what it is worth, Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew translated Matthew 5:33-37 as specifically speaking against making false vows, which I think both the surrounding and broader context supports. God swore by Himself (Genesis 22:16-17, Hebrews 6:13, 7:21), Jesus swore under oath before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:63), and Paul also made an oath to the Corinthian church (2 Corinthians 1:23), and made solemn appeals to God (Romans 1:9, Galatians 1:20, Philippians 1:8; 1 Corinthians 15:31, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, Revelation 10:5-6). God commanded His people to swear by His name in Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20, and we see many examples of this throughout the OT, such as 1 Kings 2:23 and 1 Samuel 20:3, so Jesus should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, especially because he upheld vows in Matthew 23:20-22, so he was speaking against making vows in general, but rather he was only speaking against false vows.

This was said in regard to Gentiles:

Jeremiah 12:16-17 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, ‘As the Lord lives,’ even as they taught my people to swear by Baal, then they shall be built up in the midst of my people. 17 But if any nation will not listen, then I will utterly pluck it up and destroy it, declares the Lord.”

If we could make ourselves good by our efforts and will power, we would be able to keep the law, but we can't and so no oath, no promise, and no commitment is going to make one righteous let alone help them to do good by keeping that commitment because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God.... by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

This is why it is written that the just shall live by faith; and with Jesus Christ in us and with us always, we have power to follow Him when we trust Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to do this. Trust is the basis for all relationships and so He is asking us to deny ourselves as able, picking up the cross daily that Jesus Christ is in us, for how we are able to follow Him, by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to do this.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To be continued...

Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that obediently relying on God's instructions is about trying to make ourselves good by our own efforts and will power. In Proverb 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, so that is what it means to trust God. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, while it is contradictory to think that we should trust God instead of trusting His instructions.

 

[Soyeong]

Continued.....


In context; there is no real indication of that.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

That is the departure from everything associated with the Old Covenant, including the Mosaic laws, because you cannot have the Old Covenant without the Mosaic laws.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The difference between the Old Covenant where the emphasis was on man to obtain salvation by, and the New Covenant is Jesus Christ will save all those that believe AND He as our Good Shepherd, will put His laws in our minds and in our hearts; He will do it.

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

No saved believer from Jewish background will need to tell Gentile believers anything about the Old Covenant, let alone the Mosaic Laws. God said He will do it. God's chosen people had their chance under the law and failed. New Covenant is God's turn now.

Believe Him. Believe that He has saved you and believe Him that He will put His laws in your minds and in your hearts. Jesus will do this.

to be continued...

It does not say in Hebrews 8:6-10 that the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with His law, but with the people for not continuing to obey it, which is why the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our heart so that we will obey it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith. The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to believe in Him, so we can't believe in Him instead of obeying His instructions for how to do that. Those under the New Covenant don't need to be taught to know God because it involves God's instructions for how to know Him being put in our minds and written on our hearts, so the problem is that many
people want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Continued again....


When the emphasis was on the Jews to do the Mosaic laws under the Old Covenant to obtain salvation by; then how can the emphasis remain the same on Christians to do the Mosaic Laws under the New Covenant? How can the Jews that believe in Jesus Christ be convinced that keeping the laws to obtain salvation is no longer necessary?

The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to believe in Jesus instead of obeying the Mosaic Law. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so Jesus embodied God's nature by setting a sinless example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law and the way to believe in him is by following his example. For instance, by doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, doing what is holy, righteous, just, merciful, faithful, and so forth in accordance with Christ's example is the way to believe that he is those traits, or in other words, it is the way to believe in him. This is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to His commands, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commands.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Indeed, why did His disciples told the Gentiles believers that they were not under the commandment to keep the laws of Moses?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Now if you still believe Christians are to keep the laws of Moses, why then did the disciples were not careful just to do away with circumcision only since they were talking about both the needfulness for circumcision and to keep the law of Moses?

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect purposes or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of them men in the US.

The Jerusalem Council did not rule that Gentiles were not under the Mosaic Law. In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that Acts 15:10 was not referring to the Mosaic Law as being a heavy burden that no one could bear, but rather the heavy burden was an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed in Acts 15:1. The purpose for which God commanded circumcision was not in order to become saved, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles obeying the Mosaic Law, which would be ruling that Gentles shouldn't believe in Christ or have the gift of salvation.

 

[ChristB4us]

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not do that.

Yes; He did. He even raised the bar here in another example in that Sermon on the Mount

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a direct quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", and in Matthew 5, he consistently preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by preceding it with "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not violating Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling what was written by correcting what the people had heard being wrongly taught about it and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

In Leviticus 19:12, it instruct to not swear falsely by God's name, so someone who was following the spirit of that law would understand that we are not to swear falsely whereas someone who was following the letter of that law would understand that we are free to swear falsely just as long as we swear by something other than God's name, which is the practice that Jesus was addressing in Matthew 5:33-37. So Jesus was speaking against the practice of intentionally swearing by something other than God's name in order to add the weight of a vow to what they were saying while giving themselves room to back out of it if they needed to, not against making oaths in general.

No. He was not speaking against swearing falsely but He was testifying at first how people of old had performed their oaths but now He says not to do that, not even to swear at all.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Until you recognize the reason why He speak against oath and even swearing by them in verse 36, you may not see this truth at all.

For what it is worth, Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew translated Matthew 5:33-37 as specifically speaking against making false vows, which I think both the surrounding and broader context supports. God swore by Himself (Genesis 22:16-17, Hebrews 6:13, 7:21), Jesus swore under oath before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:63), and Paul also made an oath to the Corinthian church (2 Corinthians 1:23), and made solemn appeals to God (Romans 1:9, Galatians 1:20, Philippians 1:8; 1 Corinthians 15:31, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, Revelation 10:5-6). God commanded His people to swear by His name in Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20, and we see many examples of this throughout the OT, such as 1 Kings 2:23 and 1 Samuel 20:3, so Jesus should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, especially because he upheld vows in Matthew 23:20-22, so he was speaking against making vows in general, but rather he was only speaking against false vows.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But....
Jesus spoke of how people of old times were to perform the oath. Then He said why we should not make any oath from now on.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Who can make your hair white or black? God.
Look at the question in verse 28 and ask yourself why Jesus did not say keep the Mosaic Laws.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Then Who can do God's work in you? Jesus Christ. Do you believe Him or not?

This was said in regard to Gentiles:

Jeremiah 12:16-17 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, ‘As the Lord lives,’ even as they taught my people to swear by Baal, then they shall be built up in the midst of my people. 17 But if any nation will not listen, then I will utterly pluck it up and destroy it, declares the Lord.”

Judaism is open to the Gentiles until Christ came for how anyone can become the sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood ( not of Israel's bloodlines ), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man ( not by Judaism ), but of God.

Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that obediently relying on God's instructions is about trying to make ourselves good by our own efforts and will power. In Proverb 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, so that is what it means to trust God. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, while it is contradictory to think that we should trust God instead of trusting His instructions.

The world is rationalizing sin and the corrupt churches are making compromises to that effect. Who is going to instruct believers then?

I have been led astray by my church but eventually, Jesus got my attention that He did not want to do the best I can in following Him by keeping a covenant with my mouth not to cuss any more or a commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life, because I cannot do it. He can. And so He is asking me to believe Him for all things that He will instruct me in the way I am to go as He helps me to abide in His words.

Gentiles are not taught the law before preaching the gospel to them to know what they need to repent of in order to be saved when all that is required of them and the Jews is to repent is from unbelief by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God had raised Him from the dead.

Discipleship begins after salvation by that water baptism signifying new believers desiring to follow Jesus, in trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to abide in His words in bearing fruits as His disciples. There is no other way than for the just to follow Him by faith.

 

[ChristB4us]

It does not say in Hebrews 8:6-10 that the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with His law, but with the people for not continuing to obey it, which is why the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our heart so that we will obey it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith. The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to believe in Him, so we can't believe in Him instead of obeying His instructions for how to do that. Those under the New Covenant don't need to be taught to know God because it involves God's instructions for how to know Him being put in our minds and written on our hearts, so the problem is that many
people want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to believe in Jesus instead of obeying the Mosaic Law. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so Jesus embodied God's nature by setting a sinless example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law and the way to believe in him is by following his example. For instance, by doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, doing what is holy, righteous, just, merciful, faithful, and so forth in accordance with Christ's example is the way to believe that he is those traits, or in other words, it is the way to believe in him. This is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to His commands, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commands.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Do you differentiate from looking to yourself in keeping the law of Moses to Christ in helping you to abide in His words which is higher than the works of the law?

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect purposes or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of them men in the US.

I would say from your point of view that this rebuke by Paul seems unfounded if it mean getting them to keep the laws of Moses entirely.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
And how is this righteousness by faith comes about in the life of a saved believer? Not by our religious flesh.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Jerusalem Council did not rule that Gentiles were not under the Mosaic Law. In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that Acts 15:10 was not referring to the Mosaic Law as being a heavy burden that no one could bear, but rather the heavy burden was an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed in Acts 15:1. The purpose for which God commanded circumcision was not in order to become saved, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles obeying the Mosaic Law, which would be ruling that Gentles shouldn't believe in Christ or have the gift of salvation.

Since the matter was about the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses, one would think per your answer, that they would have defer from circumcision but to be clear that the Gentiles had to keep the laws of Moses, but no. They only addressed those sins that the Gentiles were exposed to. They certainly were not taught to keep the sabbath which the Gentiles believers were not doing before they were saved.

 

[Fred]

While Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19), he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2)

But he never commanded it for the Gentiles.

 

[Fred]

n Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds

That's your mixing together of two covenants when Hebrews 8:13 teaches the Mosaic Law has been abrogated.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't compare Jesus with previously sinful humans.

You did. All of us are previously sinful humans. The argument is wrong and when corrected you deny the argument was ever made. We're done here.

I didn't suggest that ordinary humans could have perfect obedience....

The previous post proves otherwise. You did in fact state, "those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked," and since Christ walked in perfect obedience the ONLY logical conclusion to walking as he walked is that of perfect obedience. Instead of defending the error you should be correcting it.

.......though anyone can fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor (Galatians 5:14).

And who, other than Jesus has done that?

I'm not sure what you mean by "non-trins",

Just covering the base (because non-trins think Jesus was just an ordinary man (or a mode of God).

but anyone can walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law without being an especially endowed human (Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Romans 10:5-8).

Neither text cited states any such thing. This is just another abuse of scripture. What those texts state is the expectation. The entire Bible shows not one single person has ever obeyed the Law. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. The word "all" means all. Death has come to all because ALL sinned. All will sin. No, anyone cannot walk in perfect obedience to the Law. No one has but Jesus and no one will but Jesus.

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27),

Yes, but none do it perfectly. You've broken it here in this thread with the abuses of scripture, defending the error and not correcting it.

...which has nothing to do causing those thing to be unnecessary or with causing normal Christ life to to cease to exist.

Scripture proves otherwise. It is God who works in us both to will and do His will (Php.2:13).

I didn't claim those things...

When you read things I post that do not apply to your posts it is because you're not the only one reading the posts. I'm either covering bases broached elsewhere or addressing matters pre-emptively.

...but that we should follow Christ's example of refraining from sin.

And on that one point I can agree with you and I am confident all else will, too. However, the scriptures you used were abused because they were applied out of their inherent contexts and the argument you presented was flawed because of those errors in application. In a nutshell, the argument over-generalized. If anyone could walk in perfect obedience to the Law then Jesus would not be needed for that purpose. Two reasons the Lw existed in the first place was 1) to testify about the future Messiah and 2) to show us our sin and account for it. Sinless people (people who walk in perfect obedience to the Law do not need the testimony or witness of the Law, nor do they have need for such an accounting.

While suffering is certainly part of the example that Jesus set for us to follow, so is him committing no sin and having no deceit in his mouth.

Irrelevant. The verses you quoted were specifically about walking in suffering, not walking in obedience to the Law. You abused the text. Doing so disqualified you from the standards of your own argument. Not to worry because Jesus' blood had covered it pre-emptively , and it happens every day in this forum and every other Christian forum . Even I sometimes make flawed arguments, (unintentionally) misuse scripture, and err in other ways.

The Bible repeatedly speaks about walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law,

Yes, it does. The Bible also repeatedly speaks about how no one but Jesus has ever done so.

Jesus walked in obedience to it, and we are instructed to walk in the same way he walked.

No, we are instructed to walk as he walked in very specified ways. The instruction to follow Jesus' example should not be over-generalized. Doing so paradoxically violates Jesus' example. Jesus did not over-generalize the Law. I provided other examples how we are NOT to follow his example: we're not supposed to act like the Messiah. We've already got one and we don't need you to try being another. Neither does anyone here need any other poster acting like an apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher or preacher, taking authority over the forum as if they've been appointed by Jesus for our need . Again, this is a VERY common mistake, one seen in many a forum on any given day.

The Mosaic Law is also God's instructions for how to know Jesus........

Getting far afield of the op-topic so I'm gonna stop here.

Post 7 is a mess. It abuses scripture and argues several fallacies. It should not be defended. It should either be ignored, corrected, or the mods ask to delete it (but I do not counsel the latter). It serves good purpose for how not to read God's word, how not to reason. It's not personal, Soy. Even if half of my Post 13 is incorrect, Post 7 is still bad. Two posters "loved" Post 13 and they are posters with which I have had prior agreement and disagreement so do not think either of them sycophants. Consider their witness and the matter of Post 7's inadequacy established. Do not take my directness for disrespect. Post 7 is flawed.

 

[donadams]

does Jesus have all authority?

Does Jesus impart this authority to His church?

 

[Eleanor]

does Jesus have all authority?

Does Jesus impart this authority to His church?

What authority do you see Jesus imparting to the body of Christ, the church?

 

[donadams]

What authority do you see Jesus imparting to the body of Christ, the church?

All His authority Matt 16:18-19

 

[Eleanor]

All His authority Matt 16:18-19

Okay, the church, the body of Christ--you and me--has all Christ's authority.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" nor taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continued long after the cross and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles, as it clearly show. There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all mankind. And even more importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth and Lord of the Sabbath.

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨

The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as scripture clearly shows and there was a clear distinction made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law. The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear..

The Greek word Sabbath is a non-time sensitive word. It means rest nothing more and nothing less.​

​

The Sabbath rest is a ceremonial shadow that points to the daily rest 24 /7 called today.(Hebrews 4) we have rest daily yoked with Christ.​

​

Those who heard the gospel and did not mix the things seen the temporal with the unseen eternal things of God they have no rest.​

​

Mathew 28 records the rest days moving from the last day 'it is finished ' to the first the day he said "let be light as children of light". The sabbaths, at the beginning of the new era of ceremonial rest. That as a shadow do nothing to the user carnal laws. . an outward sign to the unbelieving world. Believers have prophecy the source of comforting rest of the Holy Spirit.​

​

Matthew 28Young's Literal Translation28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,​

 

[donadams]

Okay, the church, the body of Christ--you and me--has all Christ's authority.

The apostles

 

[Mr GLee]

The apostles

All believers have the authority of God's living words working in there new born again hearts. Just as Jesus our brother in the lord . whosoever does the will of the Holy Father Holy See lovingly commands us through his living abiding word to call no man Holy Father Holy See on earth

One is our adopting Father in heaven by His Spirit of sonship we can cry out abba Holy Father ..

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Our brother in the Lord Peter and sister Mary also did the will of the one Holy Father in heaven with delight, Some murmur like Jonah .

Some continue to suffer and wonder, wonder, wonder even after they take thier last breath of oxygen in Limbo the place of mystery. .

 

[Eleanor]

The apostles

Yes, all Christians the body of Christ, the church, whom you assert has all the authority.

However, the NT presents the apostles as the authority to the church.

 

[Josheb]

does Jesus have all authority?

Yes.

Does Jesus impart this authority to His church?

Yes, but not in the narrow-viewed way the RCC teaches its adherents to understand that truth because the Church is not limited to the RCC, nor its authority limited to only RCC leaders.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, all Christians the body of Christ, the church, whom you assert has all the authority.

However, the NT presents the apostles as the authority to the church.

Does the 3500 authorized patron saints as disembodied workers with familiar spirit gods have any authority?

Look in the Bible the living word Christ it defines the living word He inspires .like apostle. h\Have no fear study the ord of God (soal scriptura) the word of God and not a oral tradition of ding fathers . You can always return to your own teaching master, laws as commandments of dying mankind

A good example looking to he meaning of words sent messenger. apostle .

My wife the prophet one who declares her writen will as law she sends her little apostle, her sent messenger, her adventurous husband with a writen list to not add to or subtract and finishing the journey. . the fulfillment "all thing are accounted for" The witness of faith my wife faithfully working with me to the finish the work of God, the uniting of two as one .

 

[Eleanor]

Does the 3500 authorized patron saints as disembodied workers with familiar spirit gods have any authority?

Do we find that anywhere in the NT?