Sabbath or Sunday? What did Jesus teach & show in scripture?

[Hobie]

We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His teaching as our final authority.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said, “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He is the Creator, who from the beginning created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...
John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


And of Jesus..
John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.
Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Even before the tablets of stone at Mt Sinai....
Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, the "seventh day of the week", while Sunday is "the first day of the week". Jesus Christ regularly kept the Sabbath, taught much about the Sabbath, and clearly stated that He is Lord even of the "Sabbath day"...
Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" nor taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continued long after the cross and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles, as it clearly show. There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all mankind. And even more importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth and Lord of the Sabbath.

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨

The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as scripture clearly shows and there was a clear distinction made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law. The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear...
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.
Matthew 12:1-13
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times and never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other, nor was it abolished.

Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D, which was 40 years after the Cross. He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ says that if we love Him, to keep the Commandments.
The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator of all things..

 

[Fred]

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life.

He did so because He was born under the Law (Galatians 4:4).


All the Old Covenant commands are obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.

1. BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (palaioō, page 751).
2. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains: to cause to become old and obsolete, and hence no longer valid -'to make old, to make out of date.' 'by speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one out of date' He 8.13 (67:103, palaioō, page 643, J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida).
3. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): by setting up the new covenant God has declared the old to be outdated. God Himself cancels its validity (5:720, palaioō, Seesemann).

 

[Soyeong]

He did so because He was born under the Law (Galatians 4:4).

That does't mean that followers of Christ should refuse to follow his example.

All the Old Covenant commands are obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.

1. BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (palaioō, page 751).
2. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains: to cause to become old and obsolete, and hence no longer valid -'to make old, to make out of date.' 'by speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one out of date' He 8.13 (67:103, palaioō, page 643, J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida).
3. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): by setting up the new covenant God has declared the old to be outdated. God Himself cancels its validity (5:720, palaioō, Seesemann).

That notably says that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, not the Mosaic Law, but rather Hebrews 8:10 says that the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promises of a covenant that has already been ratified, so the New Covenant can't do away with our need to obey the Mosaic Law in connection with the promise.

 

[Fred]

That does't mean that followers of Christ should refuse to follow his example.

They can if they want to but they are not obligated to since they are not under the Old Covenant anymore.

That notably says that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, not the Mosaic Law,

The Mosaic Covenant contains the Old Covenant laws.

 

[ChristB4us]

We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His teaching as our final authority.

You did quote Matthew 12:8 but failed to apply His message in context to what He has said so be sure you are trusting Jesus Christ not to have you be blinded by the traditions of men from the Old Covenant that crept into the New Covenant to spread among the churches.

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Now the Pharisees were seeking to condemn His disciples and so pay attention for how Jesus defended His disciples, BECAUSE not once did Jesus said His disciples were not profaning the sabbath. So see how He defended them.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

So Jesus gave 2 examples of how O.T. saints had profaned the sabbath but were blameless because they were in the Temple.

Then Jesus switched from those 2 examples to defending His disciples for profaning the sabbath. Note how He did it.

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

The One greater than the Temple that was there at the time the Pharisees were seeking to condemn His disciples is Jesus Christ.

There was no Temple around nor were they eating in the Temple to be as the O.T. saints were for why they were blameless, but Jesus Christ was there for why His disciples were blameless.

The new reality in Christ Jesus is that our bodies are temples of the Holy spirit now and with Jesus Christ in us alwaus, as saved beleivers, is why we are blameless for profaning the sabbath because we are saved. There is no point continuing to keep the sabbath day to obtain salvation by which is what the Jews were doing it for to obtain eternal life when believers in Jesus Christ are saved and therefore blameless for profaning the sabbath day, having the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ as standing apart from the deeds of the law.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Josheb]

We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His teaching as our final authority.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said, “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He is the Creator, who from the beginning created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...
John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
And of Jesus..
John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.
Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Even before the tablets of stone at Mt Sinai....
Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, the "seventh day of the week", while Sunday is "the first day of the week". Jesus Christ regularly kept the Sabbath, taught much about the Sabbath, and clearly stated that He is Lord even of the "Sabbath day"...
Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" nor taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continued long after the cross and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles, as it clearly show. There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all mankind. And even more importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth and Lord of the Sabbath.

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨

The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as scripture clearly shows and there was a clear distinction made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law. The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear...
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.
Matthew 12:1-13
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times and never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other, nor was it abolished.

Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D, which was 40 years after the Cross. He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ says that if we love Him, to keep the Commandments.
The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator of all things..

Wall of text.

Ignores Hebrews 4 (and other relevant texts).

Bad op.

 

[Soyeong]

They can if they want to but they are not obligated to since they are not under the Old Covenant anymore.

Christ set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law and under the New Covenant we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). We would still be obligated to obey God even before He made any covenants with man, so His covenants are not the source of our obligation.

The Mosaic Covenant contains the Old Covenant laws.

It was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so the fact that it has become obsolete does not imply that any of its laws have become obsolete, but rather they are still to be followed as part of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10).

 

[Runningman]

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D, which was 40 years after the Cross. He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ says that if we love Him, to keep the Commandments.
The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator of all things..

To add to this point that the Sabbath is still in effect, Jesus said in verse 21 "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."

Since we can safely conclude the siege of Jerusalam and desctruction of the temple is clearly not great tribulation unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again then the Sabbath is still in effect.

 

[atpollard]

Mostly Jesus taught, by word and example, that we should LOVE … God, one another, our neighbors and even our enemies. The Sabbath nonsensical arguments never enter into it.

“The MAIN THING is to keep the MAIN THING the MAIN THING.” - Stephen Covey

“Put first things first and we get second things thrown in: put second things first and we lose both first and second things.” - C. S. Lewis

 

[Soyeong]

Mostly Jesus taught, by word and example, that we should LOVE … God, one another, our neighbors and even our enemies. The Sabbath nonsensical arguments never enter into it.

“The MAIN THING is to keep the MAIN THING the MAIN THING.” - Stephen Covey

“Put first things first and we get second things thrown in: put second things first and we lose both first and second things.” - C. S. Lewis

The Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will obey His commandments, so this is part of the main thing. When it comes to the Sabbath, there are some people who simply do not love that part of who God is.

 

[atpollard]

The Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will obey His commandments, so this is part of the main thing. When it comes to the Sabbath, there are some people who simply do not love that part of who God is.

You be ... puttin' second things, first. [shrug]

"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." - Romans 14:4 [NKJV]

"... what is that to you? You follow Me." - John 21:22b [NKJV]

 

[Fred]

Christ set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law and under the New Covenant we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21),

Incorrect in that Christian males are not required to be physically circumcised.

It was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so the fact that it has become obsolete does not imply that any of its laws have become obsolete, but rather they are still to be followed as part of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10).

According to the New Covenant it is a sin to commit adultery (Romans 13:9).

 

[Josheb]

Christ set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law and under the New Covenant we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). We would still be obligated to obey God even before He made any covenants with man, so His covenants are not the source of our obligation.


It was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so the fact that it has become obsolete does not imply that any of its laws have become obsolete, but rather they are still to be followed as part of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10).

Wow. That's some fairly adept scripture twisting. I'm impressed.

1. First of all, Jesus was God. Jesus was also born sinless. Neither condition applies to post-disobedient humans living in a post disobedient world. Comparisons between Jesus and previously sinful humans is a false comparison.
2. If any ordinary human could have been sinless and fulfilled the law, then Jesus would be unnecessary This applies even to non-trins because anyone could be an especially endowed human and walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Anyone.
3. One of the roles of the Spirit in the life of a believer is obedience. So too are sanctification, repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. None of those would be necessary if a regenerate, Spirit-filled believer was made obedient to the Law. Much of the normal Christian life would cease to exist under such circumstances.
4. Jesus setting an example does not cause others to do the same. Neither does an epistolary author saying we should do the same mean we should do what Jesus did always in all ways the same. Both arguments are false-cause fallacies.
5. When Peter wrote we should follow in Jesus' footsteps Peter specifically stated and couched that directive explicitly in the context of suffering, not the Law. Post 7 rips verse 21 from its surrounding text and ignores the verse's context to make it say something it nowhere states. We're to follow Jesus' example in his suffering.
6. 1 John 2:6 does specify God's commands as the context for following Jesus' example, but God's commands are not limited to the Law of Moses. What Post 7 has done here is limit the domain of John's words only to the Mosaic code and not all else that God has commanded. Commands from God preceded Moses and Jesus added commands from God.
7. 1 Corinthians 11:1 actually instructs the Christian to follow Paul's example, not Jesus! It directs the reader to follow Paul's example of Jesus-following. That is particularly challenging for Post 7 because Paul taught it was okay to eat meat offered to idols and one did not have to consider one day more significant than any other.
8. There has never been a time when God did not have a covenant with humanity. God demanded fealty from the first two humans He ever made. He blessed them and commanded them, and He stipulated consequences if they did not obey. Just because the word "covenant" wasn't used does not mean a covenant did not exist. All the makings of a biblical covenant existed in Eden. Furthermore, God's first covenant was made with Jesus, the pre-existent Son of Man. God had a covenant with the moon and stars that pre-existed Adam and Eve and that covenant was for their benefit. The idea that obligation precedes covenant is perhaps the biggest error of Post 7.
9. It is more accurate to say the covenants are not the ONLY source of an obligation to obey. It is not correct to discard the covenant entirely. One of the defining attributes of a covenant is the obligation to obey the covenant's stipulations.
10. By citing a sin (adultery) that was sanctioned and held accountable prior to the Mosaic Law Post 7 completely undermines Jesus' example of obedience to the Mosaic Law. In other words, the last sentence of Post 7 makes the first sentence of the post irrelevant!
11. It is very common for people to cited Hebrews 8:13 when discussing the place of the law in the gospel life. Most people proof-text the verse They single it out, remove it from its surrounding text, and make it say something it cannot possibly be made to say when the whole narrative is considered. This is important because verse 10 must be read too. Rendering verse 13 as definitive over all else the scriptures teach is bad exegesis. In the case of Post 7 the reverse has occurred. Verse 10 affirms the writing of the law in the mind and heart of the believer but verse 13 states the "first covenant" is obsolete (which would mean the law is obsolete. The same law written in heart and mind is obsolete. Neither verse defines the whole.
12. The old covenant being obsolete does imply the Law is also obsolete. The statement to the contrary in Post 7 is just wrong. There is a way to reconcile verses 10 and 13 but Post 7 is not it.
13. Basing the conclusion the Law is not obsolete because at least one law of the Law existed prior to the Law's writing is a false-cause fallacy. There could be any number of reasons why adultery was sanctioned prior to the writing of the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaic Law could simply be a record of laws that already existed.
14. Lastly (for now), the logically necessary conclusion of Post 7's unqualified opening sentence is that we'd all have to be crucified. We'd have to follow Jesus' example to the letter. Not only is that going to create ginormous problems (former sinners crucified as sinless?) but it defies the uniqueness of Christ and God's plan thereof. Jesus was THE guy foreknown as the perfect sacrifice, not anyone else. Jesus was the Son of God. None of us are THE Son of God. Our sonship is adoptive; Jesus' is inherent and ontological. It's like ordinary Christians claiming they're just acting like Paul when they incorrectly and inappropriately usurp roles of leadership they do not rightly possess. Sheep are not shepherds and when sheep act like shepherds it is disobedience.

Fourteen mistakes in one post that is only three sentences in length. I say that firmly believing you were trying to be earnest, genuine, and consistent to God's word and your faith in Christ. There is a better way.

 

[Josheb]

Does anyone here think it is okay to sin apart from keeping the sabbath on Saturday but also think themselves justified because they adhere to a seventh day sabbath?

"I mean, hey, I abuse God's word, twisting it and forcing it say things it clearly does not and cannot be made to say, but I keep the sabbath on the seventh day!"​

Does anyone find that valid, veracious or persuasive?

 

[Soyeong]

1. Comparisons between Jesus and previously sinful humans is a false comparison.

I didn't compare Jesus with previously sinful humans.

2. If any ordinary human could have been sinless and fulfilled the law, then Jesus would be unnecessary This applies even to non-trins because anyone could be an especially endowed human and walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

I didn't suggest that ordinary humans could have perfect obedience, though anyone can fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor (Galatians 5:14). I'm not sure what you mean by "non-trins", but anyone can walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law without being an especially endowed human (Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Romans 10:5-8).

3. One of the roles of the Spirit in the life of a believer is obedience. So too are sanctification, repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. None of those would be necessary if a regenerate, Spirit-filled believer was made obedient to the Law. Much of the normal Christian life would cease to exist under such circumstances.

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), which has nothing to do causing those thing to be unnecessary or with causing normal Christ life to to cease to exist.

4. Jesus setting an example does not cause others to do the same. Neither does an epistolary author saying we should do the same mean we should do what Jesus did always in all ways the same. Both arguments are false-cause fallacies.

I didn't claim those things, but that we should follow Christ's example of refraining from sin.

5.) When Peter wrote we should follow in Jesus' footsteps Peter specifically stated and couched that directive explicitly in the context of suffering, not the Law. Post 7 rips verse 21 from its surrounding text and ignores the verse's context to make it say something it nowhere states. We're to follow Jesus' example in his suffering.

While suffering is certainly part of the example that Jesus set for us to follow, so is him committing no sin and having no deceit in his mouth.

6.) 1 John 2:6 does specify God's commands as the context for following Jesus' example, but God's commands are not limited to the Law of Moses. What Post 7 has done here is limit the domain of John's words only to the Mosaic code and not all else that God has commanded.

The Bible repeatedly speaks about walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, Jesus walked in obedience to it, and we are instructed to walk in the same way he walked. The Mosaic Law is also God's instructions for how to know Jesus, which is why those 1 John 2:4-6 says that those who say that they know him, but don't obey his commands are liars, why 1 John 3:4-6 says that those who continue to practice sin in transgression of it have never seen or known him, and why Matthew 7:23 says that Jesus would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

7. 1 Corinthians 11:1 actually instructs the Christian to follow Paul's example, not Jesus! It directs the reader to follow Paul's example of Jesus-following. That is particularly challenging for Post 7 because Paul taught it was okay to eat meat offered to idols and one did not have to consider one day more significant than any other.

I stated that we to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ, so you're not disagreeing with me. The way to learn how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Mosaic Law is by learning to follow Paul's example of obedience to it (Acts 21:20-24, 24:14). Paul was a servant of God, so he did not teach against obeying Him.

8. There has never been a time when God did not have a covenant with humanity.

There is a significant difference between God giving a command with consequences and making a covenant agreement that includes that command as a stipulation, so there was a period of time between when God created man and when He made a covenant with man, but even if there was not, then that is missing the point because man would still be obligated to obey God even if He had never made any covenants with men.

9. It is more accurate to say the covenants are not the ONLY source of an obligation to obey. It is not correct to discard the covenant entirely. One of the defining attributes of a covenant is the obligation to obey the covenant's stipulations.

God is eternally sovereign, so we are eternally obligated to obey Him and to refrain from sin, which means that His covenants do not change our obligation to do that, but inform us of what has always been and what will always be our obligation.

10. By citing a sin (adultery) that was sanctioned and held accountable prior to the Mosaic Law Post 7 completely undermines Jesus' example of obedience to the Mosaic Law. In other words, the last sentence of Post 7 makes the first sentence of the post irrelevant!

There is nothing about the command against adultery being given prior to when it was included as part of the Mosaic Law that is contrary to following Christ's example of obedience to the Mosaic Law.

11. The same law written in heart and mind is obsolete. Neither verse defines the whole.

What is the point of the New Covenant involving God putting an obsolete law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will not turn away from it?

12. The old covenant being obsolete does imply the Law is also obsolete. The statement to the contrary in Post 7 is just wrong. There is a way to reconcile verses 10 and 13 but Post 7 is not it.

The only way that a set of eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with God's eternal nature can become obsolete is if God's eternal nature has first become obsolete, which is contradictory, so you are incorrect to think that the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete means that the Mosaic Law has become obsolete. For example, charity is eternally to accordance with God's eternal righteous, so any number of covenants can be made or become obsolete that include charity as part of its stipulations, but that will never cause charity to become obsolete.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8) and God's righteous and all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142, 160), so Hebrews 8:13 should not be interpreted as saying that they have ended. The only way that an eternal covenant agreement can become obsolete is if it is replaced by a covenant that includes everything that the previous covenant agreed upon plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete. If the Mosaic Covenant included something that the New Covenant did not, then it could not be made obsolete by the New Covenant. In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant can't nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so a new covenant must be inclusive of it in order to make a previous covenant obsolete. This is why the New Covenant still includes following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10), plus it makes the Mosaic Covenant obsolete by being based on better promises and has a super mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

13. Basing the conclusion the Law is not obsolete because at least one law of the Law existed prior to the Law's writing is a false-cause fallacy. There could be any number of reasons why adultery was sanctioned prior to the writing of the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaic Law could simply be a record of laws that already existed.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so the Mosaic Law is a record of laws that have always and will always exist. The fact that God's laws existed before they were included as part of the stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant means that the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete does not mean that God's eternal laws have also become obsolete, especially when they are included as part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10).

14. Lastly (for now), the logically necessary conclusion of Post 7's unqualified opening sentence is that we'd all have to be crucified. We'd have to follow Jesus' example to the letter. Not only is that going to create ginormous problems (former sinners crucified as sinless?) but it defies the uniqueness of Christ and God's plan thereof.

I did not claim that we all need to be crucified or that we have to follow Christ's example to the letter or that we need to be sinless, but that we should follow his example of refraining from sin.

Fourteen mistakes in one post that is only three sentences in length. I say that firmly believing you were trying to be earnest, genuine, and consistent to God's word and your faith in Christ. There is a better way.

While I appreciate your belief, I disagree that those are mistakes. The better way is not turning away from God's way and the Bible repeatedly describes the Mosaic Law as being God's way.

 

[Soyeong]

Incorrect in that Christian males are not required to be physically circumcised.

The NT authors were servants of God, so they did not speak against Christians following what God has commanded, though they did speak against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons.

According to the New Covenant it is a sin to commit adultery (Romans 13:9).

Indeed, which can also be said about everything else that was commanded in the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). It remains the case that the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not imply that any of its laws have become obsolete.

 

[Soyeong]

You be ... puttin' second things, first. [shrug]

It is incorrect to think that following God's instructions for how to love is not putting love first.

"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." - Romans 14:4 [NKJV]

The topic of Romans 14 is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow Him, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against following what God has commanded. For example, in Romans 14:1-5, they were judging and resenting each other over whether they chose to eat only vegetables even though God gave no command to eat only vegetables. Paul was not suggesting that we are free to break the Sabbath or to commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, or disobey any of God's other laws just as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to rebel against what God has commanded, but rather that was only said in regard to disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command.

"... what is that to you? You follow Me." - John 21:22b [NKJV]

The way to follow Jesus is by following his example, which includes his example of keeping the Sabbath holy.

 

[Fred]

The NT authors were servants of God, so they did not speak against Christians following what God has commanded, though they did speak against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons.

Circumcision is nothing. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

Indeed, which can also be said about everything else that was commanded in the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). It remains the case that the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not imply that any of its laws have become obsolete.

Incorrect, because the Mosaic law specified that the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath was binding.
This isn't found in the New Covenant.

 

[Soyeong]

Circumcision is nothing. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

While Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19), he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2) and that circumcision conditionally has value if we obey the Mosaic Law (Romans 2:25), so the issue is that circumcision has no inherent value and that it value is entirely derived from whether we obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6).

Incorrect, because the Mosaic law specified that the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath was binding.
This isn't found in the New Covenant.

In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the fact that the NT does not specifically repeat everything that was commanded in the Mosaic Law does not mean that the New Covenant does not involve following the Mosaic Law. The authors of the NT were not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and said nothing about editing God's law down to what they specifically repeated. Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he still would have taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).


The NT does call for us to repent from our sin and defines sin as the the transgression of God's law, which includes the command to e

 

[ChristB4us]

That does't mean that followers of Christ should refuse to follow his example.

When you look at the Sermon on the Mount, He refers to the law of what the Jews have been taught but raise the bar higher as departing from what was taught, and so His example wasn't for His disciples to follow the law as if that was the example He was setting for others to follow, but to believe in Him to do His work in you so you can follow Him.

One example is the Jewish practice of oath making and finishing it; but as Jesus referred to this practice, He added not to even swear at all which Jews would do in showing their sincerity of finishing that oath.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Jesus explained why He dd not want any of His followers to make an oath to Him to make themselves good or to do good like following Him.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

If we could make ourselves good by our efforts and will power, we would be able to keep the law, but we can't and so no oath, no promise, and no commitment is going to make one righteous let alone help them to do good by keeping that commitment because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God.... by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

This is why it is written that the just shall live by faith; and with Jesus Christ in us and with us always, we have power to follow Him when we trust Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to do this. Trust is the basis for all relationships and so He is asking us to deny ourselves as able, picking up the cross daily that Jesus Christ is in us, for how we are able to follow Him, by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to do this.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To be continued...