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Roman Centurion vs the Canaanite women

That's probably true to a small degree. If the tradition is true, then maybe the Centurion of Matthew 8 was the same guy to whom Paul was chained when he spoke the gospel in Caesar's court. However, given the fact Nero was covering Christians in pitch, lighting them afire while still alive and using them as streetlights, I'm not sure "mending bridges" is an accurate qualifier.

Nero's period was short, and some landowners helped Christians get to safety, believing him to be undeserving. I'm speaking specifically of 'render to Caesar what is Caesars'--of being in compliance where possible so as to gain credibility etc.
 
btw, for Josheb:
I still don't get your sense that the Canaanite woman was pushing her own 'merit' to obligate Christ to do this.
 
Josheb wrote:
rendered himself unable to be the sinless sacrifice

He was the sinless sacrifice by recognizing her faith instead of dismissing her.
 
But is this true at the time of the conquest?
When you say "the conquest" do you only mean the part where Joshua and Israel invaded the lands west of the Jordan river? Or do you include their conquests east of Jordan under Moses?

To me, it appears that Israel's intent was to exterminate all the descendants of Canaan ("Canaanites"). They attacked the Amorites in their homeland (east of Galilee in the hill country) and seized all their cities, probably in the 14th century BC. So if I must give a straight yes/no answer, it's YES.

On the other hand, by the end of Exodus there are places where nations are listed together as "Canaanites, Amorites, Jebusites, Hivites," etc. I attribute this to the Torah having been compiled centuries later by editor(s) who made that distinction. Depending on how you view the genesis of... well... Genesis... you may have a different view. Theologians and Scholars do NOT agree on this AT ALL.

For the purposes of this topic, it's probably worth noting that by New Testament times, a lot of the "Canaanites" living in "Canaan" probably weren't actually descended from Canaan. The Luwian "Sea Peoples" overtook most of the city-states along the coastline in the 12th century BC, and were probably descended from Japheth rather than Ham/Canaan. They also intermarried with the Hittites further north.

Later they all were conquered by the (neo-)Assyrians, who were Semites. The Israelites never accomplished God's mandate to eliminate the Canaanites, but the Assyrians may have. They certainly cut a bloody swath through the whole area.

-Jarrod
 
When you say "the conquest" do you only mean the part where Joshua and Israel invaded the lands west of the Jordan river? Or do you include their conquests east of Jordan under Moses?

To me, it appears that Israel's intent was to exterminate all the descendants of Canaan ("Canaanites"). They attacked the Amorites in their homeland (east of Galilee in the hill country) and seized all their cities, probably in the 14th century BC. So if I must give a straight yes/no answer, it's YES.

On the other hand, by the end of Exodus there are places where nations are listed together as "Canaanites, Amorites, Jebusites, Hivites," etc. I attribute this to the Torah having been compiled centuries later by editor(s) who made that distinction. Depending on how you view the genesis of... well... Genesis... you may have a different view. Theologians and Scholars do NOT agree on this AT ALL.

For the purposes of this topic, it's probably worth noting that by New Testament times, a lot of the "Canaanites" living in "Canaan" probably weren't actually descended from Canaan. The Luwian "Sea Peoples" overtook most of the city-states along the coastline in the 12th century BC, and were probably descended from Japheth rather than Ham/Canaan. They also intermarried with the Hittites further north.

Later they all were conquered by the (neo-)Assyrians, who were Semites. The Israelites never accomplished God's mandate to eliminate the Canaanites, but the Assyrians may have. They certainly cut a bloody swath through the whole area.

-Jarrod

So is Paul mistaken in Acts 13?
 
Why did Jesus compare the Canaanite woman to a dog?
"Dog" is a term used specifically for Canaanites in Jewish writings of the intertestamental period.

It's actually part of an extended metaphor. Israel are sheep from the Old Testament down, and the Egyptians are wolves that prey on them. The Canaanites are dogs because they are the lackeys of the Egyptians... they are like them, but not given the respect of being full wolves. 😅

Jerusalem was ethnically diverse..... but the house of Israel was homogenous.
I very much disagree. But I also think it's probably off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.
 
In the book of Mathew 8: 5-13 Why did Jesus decide to help the Roman Centurion, but in Mathew !5: 23-25 he did not want to help the Canaanite Women set her daughter free any thoughts.
The Centurion pressed the right buttons going in, but Jesus decided to "Test" the Canaanite woman to establish where she was spiritually.
 
AT the end of the day, we still want to know why John the B did not seek hostility with Roman soldiers
No, we do not. We want to discuss the op, and the op asks nothing about John the B. It asks solely about Jesus and Jesus' different response to two and only two specified people, one of whom comes from a culture with a long history in scripture.
....because Christians are not Judaistic zealots.
Sadly, that's not true. Many Christians routinely Judaize Christianity and do so with (ideological) zeal. It's also not relevant to the texts cited in the op.
 
The Centurion pressed the right buttons going in, but Jesus decided to "Test" the Canaanite woman to establish where she was spiritually.
Tell me more.
 
Nero's period was short, and some landowners helped Christians get to safety, believing him to be undeserving. I'm speaking specifically of 'render to Caesar what is Caesars'--of being in compliance where possible so as to gain credibility etc.
Not relevant.

What is this op about?
 
"Dog" is a term used specifically for Canaanites in Jewish writings of the intertestamental period.
Tell @EarlyActs,

But remember: He has a Masters in New Testament background and several decades of reading ;).
It's actually part of an extended metaphor. Israel are sheep from the Old Testament down, and the Egyptians are wolves that prey on them. The Canaanites are dogs because they are the lackeys of the Egyptians... they are like them, but not given the respect of being full wolves. 😅
Tell it to @EarlyActs

But remember: He has a Masters in New Testament background and several decades of reading.
I very much disagree. But I also think it's probably off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.
It's not off-topic if ethnic purity is relevant to Jesus' responses to the Centurion and/or the Canaanite woman.
 
It's not off-topic if ethnic purity is relevant to Jesus' responses to the Centurion and/or the Canaanite woman.
Ok.

The Israelites failed at ethnic purity very early in the Bible. In Numbers 25, they intermixed with the Moabite women. They also allied and married into the Kenites (ethnically Edomites) in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land as well. Moses himself married a Kenite woman. We can tell this was a problem because they had to make special rules about it . I think it was 4 generations from an Edomite ancestor and 10 for Moabites but don't quote me on that.

There's also some suspicious math in Genesis. 70 people went down to Egypt, and 4 generations later there were 2 million+ that went out?

Then there's the forced re-location of the nobles by the Babylonians. And the Persians. And the diaspora of the commoners into Egypt, Idumea, and every other surrounding nation. And there's the re-location of foreigners into Judea and Samaria.

When you go look at the earliest parts of the Talmuds, it can be directly observed that there was a problem of how to adequately determine who was truly Jewish, because they argue about it at length.

In the New Testament, Jesus gives us his judgment on what was already a popular topic of debate in that day. He tells us that one's true ancestry can be determined by looking at behavior (John 8). Abraham's descendants are the ones who act like Abraham, and you will know them by their fruits.

Paul, of course, follows Jesus as well:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2)

-Jarrod
 
No, we do not. We want to discuss the op, and the op asks nothing about John the B. It asks solely about Jesus and Jesus' different response to two and only two specified people, one of whom comes from a culture with a long history in scripture.

Sadly, that's not true. Many Christians routinely Judaize Christianity and do so with (ideological) zeal. It's also not relevant to the texts cited in the op.

The question at hand is related to the op. It was whether Jesus sounded like the zealots and thus hostile to Rome. He did not do either. This had to do with the favorable treatment of Romans.
 
No, we do not. We want to discuss the op, and the op asks nothing about John the B. It asks solely about Jesus and Jesus' different response to two and only two specified people, one of whom comes from a culture with a long history in scripture.

Sadly, that's not true. Many Christians routinely Judaize Christianity and do so with (ideological) zeal. It's also not relevant to the texts cited in the op.

It has to do with why Romans would be treated favorably instead of spit upon like the zealots did. I'm now not even sure you know your OP.
 
about your last post--the victory over the nations...
Acts 13:19? It's a direct reference to Deuteronomy 7:

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

The Israelites certainly failed in this regard. I wouldn't say Paul is wrong, though. He's just alluding to a little history.

-Jarrod
 
Not relevant.

What is this op about?


You painted the whole 1st cent. as Nero's treatment. There were actually many kinds of positions toward the Christians. Since there were more Jews and more zealots than Christians for a while, Rome treated them harshly, and perhaps you conflated those two.

Your OP was your surprise that Romans would be treated favorably but the Canaanite woman was treated harshly (supposedly).

I don't have an answer yet about why you see her as demanding credit for herself. She did rank herself as a dog. She asked the way others did. 'Have mercy on me.' I may be mistaken, or you may have another account in mind, but she did not secretly 'steal' power from him.
 
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