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Roman 9:22-24

Carbon

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22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24.

What if God? God in the exercise of His sovereign right can save one person and punish another. He uses His almighty power to draw the wicked to repentance which does nothing but harden them in evil. It seems these men, who are vessels of dishonor fitted for destruction are not pardoned or corrected by God's grace. It seems to me they are for no other use but to be examples and subjects of God's justice.

Then according to His sovereign will God has regard for His elect who are from all the nations of the world, and these He will not destroy but make them partakers of His abundant mercies in Christ. ( To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory., Col 1:27 ) These are the vessels of mercy appointed by God to be subjects of His soverigne grace. These were predestined to heavenly glory, giving them the means of grace to attain salvation. (even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:4.)

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Tim 1:9.

That's all pretty powerful and humbling.

Thoughts? Agree?
 
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24.

What if God? God in the exercise of His sovereign right can save one person and punish another. He uses His almighty power to draw the wicked to repentance which does nothing but harden them in evil. It seems these men, who are vessels of dishonor fitted for destruction are not pardoned or corrected by God's grace. It seems to me they are for no other use but to be examples and subjects of God's justice.

Then according to His sovereign will God has regard for His elect who are from all the nations of the world, and these He will not destroy but make them partakers of His abundant mercies in Christ. ( To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory., Col 1:27 ) These are the vessels of mercy appointed by God to be subjects of His soverigne grace. These were predestined to heavenly glory, giving them the means of grace to attain salvation. (even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:4.)

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Tim 1:9.

That's all pretty powerful and humbling.

Thoughts? Agree?
I would say that God was very patient with say, Pharoh, as He brought plague after plague, giving Pharoh plenty of time and reason to humble himself. In the end the hardened heart of Pharoh became manifest.
 
I would say that God was very patient with say, Pharoh, as He brought plague after plague, giving Pharoh plenty of time and reason to humble himself. In the end the hardened heart of Pharoh became manifest.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Romans 9:17.

So, God prepared him for the purpose which he served hardened his heart but waited patiently for him to humble himself?

I don't think so. :oops:
 
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Thoughts? Agree?

I agree. My thoughts on this subject is that our understanding of God is so important to God ( that we know Him as completely as humanly possible ) that it is actually necessary for Him to demonstrate both His Justice and Mercy else we just won't understand Him at all. And getting Him wrong is missing Him completely. It would be idolatry and God has a very dim view of idolatry.

And isn't it a mercy that He feels this way? He could have not said a word about it. We are His creation after all and He can do anything He wants in His universe. He was perfectly fine within Himself without us. And yet He even went to the unfathomable length to step down into creation so that we would understand Him rightly through Christ.

Humbling indeed.
 
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Romans 9:17.

So, God prepared him for the purpose which he served hardened his heart but waited patiently for him to humble himself?

I don't think so. :oops:
I`m saying that God gave Pharoh the opportunity to humble himself, but of course God is omniscient and knew that Pharoh wouldn`t humble himself. Yet, God is just and not partial and thus gives opportunity even when He knows they wont.

So, in that God knew the outcome God used Pharoh to reveal His power etc, without being unjust.
 
I`m saying that God gave Pharoh the opportunity to humble himself, but of course God is omniscient and knew that Pharoh wouldn`t humble himself. Yet, God is just and not partial and thus gives opportunity even when He knows they wont.

So, in that God knew the outcome God used Pharoh to reveal His power etc, without being unjust.
I think it might be more correct that God raised Pharaoh up as a mighty ruler to then show how even such rulers are powerless before God.

"Who are those people wandering in the desert?"
"They are the people of the God of Moses."
"So this God is the God of what? Sand?"
"Have a care friend...that "God of Sand" wiped out mighty Pharoah and the armies of Egypt and now humbles the millions of His people in the wasteland"
 
If God arbitrarily condemns certain people without giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will repent in order that they might escape that certain judgment, it seems to me that this god is a satanic cosmic monster who created a group of people for the express purpose of tormenting them for ever and ever in everlasting fire without giving them a choice in the matter of being able to escape that judgment.

It seems to me that God is responsible for their sinful behaviour; since, in Calvinism, free will does not exist and therefore the sinner cannot cease from being a sinner in order that he might escape certain judgment.

He created them sinners and gave them no way of escape from being sinners, if they are not of the elect; and therefore He arbitrarily chose them out to be tormented in everlasting fire.

Does God take pleasure in this? Why would He create certain people as sinners and then keep them from making the decision to receive the only salvation that He offers?

It seems to me that this is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

In order for men to be responsible for their sins, and for judgment to be just, they must have a choice in the matter of whether or not they will continue in sin.

If they do not have a choice, then God is ultimately responsible for what He judges them for as being worthy of eternal flames.
 
If God arbitrarily condemns certain people without giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will repent in order that they might escape that certain judgment, it seems to me that this god is a satanic cosmic monster who created a group of people for the express purpose of tormenting them for ever and ever in everlasting fire without giving them a choice in the matter of being able to escape that judgment.

It seems to me that God is responsible for their sinful behaviour; since, in Calvinism, free will does not exist and therefore the sinner cannot cease from being a sinner in order that he might escape certain judgment.

He created them sinners and gave them no way of escape from being sinners, if they are not of the elect; and therefore He arbitrarily chose them out to be tormented in everlasting fire.

Does God take pleasure in this? Why would He create certain people as sinners and then keep them from making the decision to receive the only salvation that He offers?

It seems to me that this is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

In order for men to be responsible for their sins, and for judgment to be just, they must have a choice in the matter of whether or not they will continue in sin.

If they do not have a choice, then God is ultimately responsible for what He judges them for as being worthy of eternal flames.
God does nothing arbitrarily, is not capricious in any and all that He does. Everything He does, He does through His decreed will. You act as if fallen mankind are victims, not rebel God-hating sinners.
 
If God arbitrarily condemns certain people without giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will repent in order that they might escape that certain judgment, it seems to me that this god is a satanic cosmic monster who created a group of people for the express purpose of tormenting them for ever and ever in everlasting fire without giving them a choice in the matter of being able to escape that judgment.
Yes, we know that is how you think, and you prove yourself to be the person of Romans 9:19-21. Your post is blasphemous and shows you are hostile toward the one true God of Scripture.
It seems to me
Yes, it seems to you, which is you laying your finite criteria down that god must meet in order to be your god and be fair by your rules.
that God is responsible for their sinful behaviour; since, in Calvinism, free will does not exist and therefore the sinner cannot cease from being a sinner in order that he might escape certain judgment.

He created them sinners and gave them no way of escape from being sinners, if they are not of the elect; and therefore He arbitrarily chose them out to be tormented in everlasting fire.

Does God take pleasure in this? Why would He create certain people as sinners and then keep them from making the decision to receive the only salvation that He offers?

It seems to me that this is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).
You don't know what 2 Peter 3:9 means, it is to the "usward," the recipients of the letter, specifically the elect, not the world at large. Stop twisting the word and pay attention to the context.
In order for men to be responsible for their sins, and for judgment to be just, they must have a choice in the matter of whether or not they will continue in sin.

If they do not have a choice, then God is ultimately responsible for what He judges them for as being worthy of eternal flames.
More Romans 9:19-21 hostility on display ^^^

I pray God brings you to repentance as you preach a false gospel, a false god that must submit to your finite ideology, and are hostile in your mind toward the true God of Scripture; Colossians 1:21; Romans 8:7.
 
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24.

What if God? God in the exercise of His sovereign right can save one person and punish another. He uses His almighty power to draw the wicked to repentance which does nothing but harden them in evil. It seems these men, who are vessels of dishonor fitted for destruction are not pardoned or corrected by God's grace. It seems to me they are for no other use but to be examples and subjects of God's justice.

Then according to His sovereign will God has regard for His elect who are from all the nations of the world, and these He will not destroy but make them partakers of His abundant mercies in Christ. ( To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory., Col 1:27 ) These are the vessels of mercy appointed by God to be subjects of His soverigne grace. These were predestined to heavenly glory, giving them the means of grace to attain salvation. (even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:4.)

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Tim 1:9.

That's all pretty powerful and humbling.

Thoughts? Agree?
"Prepared for destruction" is in the middle voice, meaning prepared themselves for destruction.

It seems to be a necessary part of the infinite divine Wisdom's accomplishment of his purpose in the Bride he is preparing for his Son.

I agree with Ro 9:22-24 because it is the authoritative word of God.
 
I do not believe in a god who arbitrarily condemns people for sin when it is his fault that they are sinners.

I believe in a God who gives to every man an opportunity to repent and receive Jesus as his Lord and Saviour; and I believe in a Jesus who will in no wise cast out anyone who comes to Him (John 6:37); not a Jesus who might reject a person who comes to Him because, unbeknownst to them, they were never of His elect and therefore even in coming to Him He might cast them away. For the latter thing is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

And in your opinion, because I don't tow the line to your hyper-Calvinistic philosophy, I am not even saved.

Well, I can say the same to you: that you are not saved because you have not fulfilled the condition to the promise of receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38-39).

I have scripture to back up my statement while you do not have any scripture to back up your statement that I am not saved...you simply think that I am not saved because I don't tow the line to your philosophy (no scripture to back it up).

2 Peter 3:9...

2Pe 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

"us-ward" here is speaking of all those who will read Peter's letter and therefore no one is excluded.

John 6:37 is clear on that.

Jesus will in no wise cast out any one who comes to Him.

Therefore, in the scenario where someone who is "not of the elect" comes to Christ, in your estimation Christ will cast them out.

In my estimation, no one is of the elect until after they have come to Christ; and therefore if they come to Christ, it cannot be true that they are not of the elect. They become "saved" the moment that they come to Christ; He will in no wise cast them out.
 
Yes, we know that is how you think, and you prove yourself to be the person of Romans 9:19-21. Your post is blasphemous and shows you are hostile toward the one true God of Scripture.
In your theology that is because I do not have a choice in the matter.

How then can God justly condemn me for something that is His doing and not my own?

He ought to punish Himself instead of me. That would be the just due to be meted out to the god that you serve.

(not to be confused with the fact that the God that I serve already took the penalty for my sins because He loves me).
 
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I pray God brings you to repentance as you preach a false gospel, a false god that must submit to your finite ideology, and are hostile in your mind toward the true God of Scripture;
I will only say that you have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).

What a pleasant website this is!

I think that it has utterly failed to do what it has set out to become; because of people like you.

We understand the Body of Christ is very diverse. It is this site's goal to facilitate an environment where charity and humility rises above hostility and division.
 
"Prepared for destruction" is in the middle voice, meaning prepared themselves for destruction.
Yes. Thank for reminding me of that point.
The word either hardens or softens. When God lifts His hand of grace they harden themselves.
It seems to be a necessary part of the infinite divine Wisdom's accomplishment of his purpose in the Bride he is preparing for his Son.
👍
I agree with Ro 9:22-24 because it is the authoritative word of God.
👍
 
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