Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............

[fastfredy0]

Examples​

Job, Jacob, Lydia, Paul, the 3000, all Israel

• Job 23:14 “For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such decrees are with Him.

• Matthew 11:21 “Woe (judgment is coming) to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon [cities of the Gentiles], they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes [their hearts would have been changed and they would have expressed sorrow for their sin and rebellion against God]. Jesus would be the cause of cities turning to him if He had visited them.
• Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Salvific faith requires the acknowledgement that Christ is God and here we see that this knowledge came from God and not Peter
• John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you…. 19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
• John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
• Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
• All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
• Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
• Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
• Paul’s conversion Acts 22:10 And I asked, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord answered me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that is appointed and destined for you to do.’
• Romans 10:24 “I was found of them that sought Me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not for Me.” He speaks this with reference to the Gentiles: — that it was given unto them to hear and know Christ, when before, they could not even think of Him, much less seek Him, or prepare themselves for Him by the power of “Free-will.” From this example it is sufficiently evident, that grace comes so free, that no thought concerning it, or attempt or desire after it, precedes. On the other hand, he saith of the Jews “The Gentiles which followed not after righteousness have attained unto the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained unto the law of righteousness” (Rom. ix. 30-31). What has any advocate for “Free-will” to mutter against this? The Gentiles when filled with ungodliness and every vice, receive righteousness freely from a mercy-shewing God: while the Jews, who follow after righteousness with all their devoted effort and endeavor, are frustrated. Is this not plainly saying, that the endeavor of “Free-will” is all in vain, even when it strives to do the best; and that “Freewill,” of itself, can only fall back and grow worse and worse? Nor can anyone say, that the Jews did not follow after righteousness with all the power of “Free-will.” For Paul himself bears this testimony of them, “That they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge,” (Romans 10:2). Therefore, nothing which is attributed to “Free-will” was wanting to the Jews; and yet, it attained unto nothing, nay unto the contrary of that after which they strove. Whereas, there was nothing in the Gentiles which is attributed to “Free-will,” and they attained unto the righteousness of God.
• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men) 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness). 6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless]. 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded.
• Romans 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.
• 1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God”
• Galatians 1:15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me

I can give several hundred more ... but @Carbon might have to buy more disk space

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Examples​

Job, Jacob, Lydia, Paul, the 3000, all Israel

• Job 23:14 “For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such decrees are with Him.

• Matthew 11:21 “Woe (judgment is coming) to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon [cities of the Gentiles], they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes [their hearts would have been changed and they would have expressed sorrow for their sin and rebellion against God]. Jesus would be the cause of cities turning to him if He had visited them.
• Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Salvific faith requires the acknowledgement that Christ is God and here we see that this knowledge came from God and not Peter
• John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you…. 19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
• John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
• Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
• All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
• Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
• Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
• Paul’s conversion Acts 22:10 And I asked, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord answered me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that is appointed and destined for you to do.’
• Romans 10:24 “I was found of them that sought Me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not for Me.” He speaks this with reference to the Gentiles: — that it was given unto them to hear and know Christ, when before, they could not even think of Him, much less seek Him, or prepare themselves for Him by the power of “Free-will.” From this example it is sufficiently evident, that grace comes so free, that no thought concerning it, or attempt or desire after it, precedes. On the other hand, he saith of the Jews “The Gentiles which followed not after righteousness have attained unto the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained unto the law of righteousness” (Rom. ix. 30-31). What has any advocate for “Free-will” to mutter against this? The Gentiles when filled with ungodliness and every vice, receive righteousness freely from a mercy-shewing God: while the Jews, who follow after righteousness with all their devoted effort and endeavor, are frustrated. Is this not plainly saying, that the endeavor of “Free-will” is all in vain, even when it strives to do the best; and that “Freewill,” of itself, can only fall back and grow worse and worse? Nor can anyone say, that the Jews did not follow after righteousness with all the power of “Free-will.” For Paul himself bears this testimony of them, “That they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge,” (Romans 10:2). Therefore, nothing which is attributed to “Free-will” was wanting to the Jews; and yet, it attained unto nothing, nay unto the contrary of that after which they strove. Whereas, there was nothing in the Gentiles which is attributed to “Free-will,” and they attained unto the righteousness of God.
• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men) 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness). 6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless]. 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded.
• Romans 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.
• 1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God”
• Galatians 1:15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me

I can give several hundred more ... but @Carbon might have to buy more disk space

Thats funny.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I consider the passage of Acts 16:14 and Luke 24:25 - are those verses that show regeneration prior to faith or no?

Acts 16:14 definitely shows regeneration preceding faith.

How do you see Luke 24:25 doing this?

I connect understanding to regeneration because that's what I needed was to actually understand, once I did, the second I did, I was saved.

I like how John 8:47 describes it as both listening and responding—which, as you note, involves understanding.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Acts 16:14 definitely shows regeneration preceding faith.

How do you see Luke 24:25 doing this?




I like how John 8:47 describes it as both listening and responding—which, as you note, involves understanding.

I'm sorry, it's evening and my eyesight is worse. It's Luke 24:45 that I was referencing - or attempting to...

John 8:47 is very good...

 

[Carbon]

Acts 16:14 definitely shows regeneration preceding faith.

How do you see Luke 24:25 doing this?

I was thinking that also.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I was thinking that also.

Sorry - can't see, wrong verse was originally quoted.

"He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" Luke 24 44-47

I was taking this as a regeneration... ?

 

[Carbon]

Sorry - can't see, wrong verse was originally quoted.

Oh no worries.

"He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" Luke 24 44-47

I was taking this as a regeneration... ?

 

[makesends]

Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............​

What is the cause of a person's faith is left to be discussed.

If a person self-determines one's faith
then the cause of regeneration is the person and then Faith logically precedes Regeneration
this is supported by John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 and that God loves everyone and is fair to give everyone a chance,

Well, no. Those verses are used in an attempt to support the notion, but they do not support it. But I know that you were being sarcastic. —Just wanted to point it out to readers.

and prevenient grace and possibly some Ouija boards
else
the cause of regeneration is God and then Faith logically follows Regeneration
this is supported by the verse that says "this is the gift of God that you believe" and John 1:12-13 and many more

Possibly the definitions of "Faith" and "Regeneration" is also needed.

 

[makesends]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

1 John 4:2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God"
is very much like 1 Cor 12:3. Both have to do with identifying the spirit of a person, (or variously, of an angel).

What is particularly interesting to me here, though, in both cases is that the source of the confession, or the source of the spirit of that person, (or of that angel), is God—specifically, the Spirit of God. This goes to prove that salvific faith is not generated by the human, but by God himself.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well, no. Those verses are used in an attempt to support the notion, but they do not support it. But I know that you were being sarcastic. —Just wanted to point it out to readers.

The Readers thank you, because the readers cannot see humor on the internet with out the requisite (sarc.) or (lol) or even perhaps (hahaha haha).

What is particularly interesting to me here, though, in both cases is that the source of the confession, or the source of the spirit of that person, (or of that angel), is God—specifically, the Spirit of God. This goes to prove that salvific faith is not generated by the human, but by God himself.

What I began wondering about, is whether there's something here that can teach us for today.

I mean, everyone, even Arminians (spelling?) claim Jesus is God right? No one but a couple cults deny this - mainly because not even the Muslims can read the Bible without seeing clearly that the Bible is who is ascribing divinity to Christ. (Hence, 'oh no the "texts" are corrupt' from the cultists who refuse to acknowledge Christ's divinity... Yes, I was once one of them).

So we don't have the likely cloud of Jews denying the Messiah in one form of another like the early church did, so for us these verses seem to hold little import to today.

But we do have something else, people who deny His lordship over them via other means (aka designing for themselves a god without any power, a mere wooden idol without speech so they can feign a submission not owned

Have you noticed we have a tendency to react when people start misrepresenting God's nature? (Their weak god that is no god at all, for example).

I do anyway, and maybe it's like the blasphemy thing but in a different way because instead of killing you it gets you ready for the prolonged war of words.

I probably lost track here a little, I got a whooping hour and half of sleep and am in pain so, my mind might be broken... lol.

But to close out my thoughts, maybe they were telling us generally about people who misrepresent God's nature, especially God's nature as displayed in our salvation...

Perhaps it is that the Holy Spirit will not make these (more broad) misrepresentations of God's nature, as clearly it takes God himself in regeneration to actually understand the Gospel.

What do you guys think?

(Better to think of this than pain..)

 

[David Lamb]

Of course not. Anyone can say those "words."

Here is one example,
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
The first thief to speak had no problem, saying "are you not the Christ?"

But then the second one to speak shows something totally different.

I believe it shows a sinner who was regenerated before saying such things. He said,
Do you not even fear God? Where did this fear come from?
We are indeed suffering justly? He has seen his guilt.
But this man has done nothing wrong. He has seen Christ's innocence.
“Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” His faith was alive. He wasn't asking Jesus to be his Lord and Saviour. But he knew who Jesus was. Jesus is his Lord and Saviour.

There is quite the difference.

Yes, this is shown particularly when we remember that to begin with, both the criminals who were crucified with Jesus mocked Him:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.” (Mt 27:44 NKJV)

 

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Yes, this is shown particularly when we remember that to begin with, both the criminals who were crucified with Jesus mocked Him:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.” (Mt 27:44 NKJV)

Interesting, we have a different report here:

39 And one of the evildoers who were hanged was slandering Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” 40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are in the same judgment? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving back [things] worthy of what we did, but this One did nothing out of place”; 42 and he said to Jesus, “Remember me, Lord, when You may come in Your kingdom”; 43 and Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43

 

[David Lamb]

Interesting, we have a different report here:

39 And one of the evildoers who were hanged was slandering Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” 40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are in the same judgment? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving back [things] worthy of what we did, but this One did nothing out of place”; 42 and he said to Jesus, “Remember me, Lord, when You may come in Your kingdom”; 43 and Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43

Yes, Matthew and Mark report the fact that both criminals started by reviling Jesus. Luke gives us the information concerning the amazing change in one of them.

 

[makesends]

The Readers thank you, because the readers cannot see humor on the internet with out the requisite (sarc.) or (lol) or even perhaps (hahaha haha).

Well, my intention wasn't to show that it was sarcasm, but that it was intended to be read as false. @fastfredy0 doesn't believe that faith precedes regeneration.

What I began wondering about, is whether there's something here that can teach us for today.

I mean, everyone, even Arminians (spelling?)

Yeah, that's spelled right. The spell checkers don't know that word.

I mean, everyone, even Arminians (spelling?) claim Jesus is God right? No one but a couple cults deny this - mainly because not even the Muslims can read the Bible without seeing clearly that the Bible is who is ascribing divinity to Christ. (Hence, 'oh no the "texts" are corrupt' from the cultists who refuse to acknowledge Christ's divinity... Yes, I was once one of them).

So we don't have the likely cloud of Jews denying the Messiah in one form of another like the early church did, so for us these verses seem to hold little import to today.

But we do have something else, people who deny His lordship over them via other means (aka designing for themselves a god without any power, a mere wooden idol without speech so they can feign a submission not owned

Have you noticed we have a tendency to react when people start misrepresenting God's nature? (Their weak god that is no god at all, for example).

I do anyway, and maybe it's like the blasphemy thing but in a different way because instead of killing you it gets you ready for the prolonged war of words.

I probably lost track here a little, I got a whooping hour and half of sleep and am in pain so, my mind might be broken... lol.

But to close out my thoughts, maybe they were telling us generally about people who misrepresent God's nature, especially God's nature as displayed in our salvation...

Yep

Perhaps it is that the Holy Spirit will not make these (more broad) misrepresentations of God's nature, as clearly it takes God himself in regeneration to actually understand the Gospel.

What do you guys think?

(Better to think of this than pain..)

I agree. However, in a sense it is not even the regenerated that understand the Gospel, but only God himself. That is, none of us understand it well enough to qualify. The quality of our faith is not according to OUR understanding, but from a more real source, who understands it completely. We 'glom' onto it, because the Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God. We believe because it is done in us. But we lack a LOT of data.

 

[fastfredy0]

I mean, everyone, even Arminians (spelling?) claim Jesus is God right?

According to ChatGPT ....

• Survey Findings:
  A 2020 study, "The State of Theology," revealed that 30% of those who identify as evangelicals believe Jesus was a great teacher but not God.
• General Population:
  The same survey found that 52% of adults in the United States agree that Jesus was a great teacher but not God.
  
  
• Evangelical Definition:
  The survey defined evangelicals as people who strongly agreed with the following four statements: "The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe," and "It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior".
  
  Since I consider acknowledging Jesus as God as an essential part of saving faith ... in my opinion .... "Houston, we have a problem"
  
  

 

[fastfredy0]

Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............​

What is there to discuss?

If a person self-determines one's faith
then the cause of regeneration is the person and then Faith logically precedes Regeneration
this is supported by John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 and that God loves everyone and is fair to give everyone a chance,
and prevenient grace and possibly some Ouija boards

.... seems to be some confusion. The thread said to discuss whether Regeneration precedes Faith and I thought it fair to mention the verses that MANY put forward as their proof the Faith precedes Regeneration. Although I feel that Regeneration precedes Faith, I admit that these verses cannot be easily dismissed and therefore would be part of the discussion. There are not many free willies on this site to defend their stance.

Aside: Don't kill the messenger *giggle*

 

[His clay]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

While I agree that regeneration logically precedes faith, I think that your verse here does not make the case you think it is making. Note the following where I convey the verse's meaning in light of different theological frameworks.

I will supply the way different readers see the verse.

1. no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit's regeneration)
2. no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit's enablement via prevenient grace)
3. no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit's conviction)

Take note of differing theological understandings of "by the Holy Spirit." Different background assumptions create different understandings of the passage in question. What is there to discuss? Answer: the validity of different background assumptions is a key point of discussion.

 

[His clay]

Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............​

.... seems to be some confusion. The thread said to discuss whether Regeneration precedes Faith and I thought it fair to mention the verses that MANY put forward as their proof the Faith precedes Regeneration. Although I feel that Regeneration precedes Faith, I admit that these verses cannot be easily dismissed and therefore would be part of the discussion. There are not many free willies on this site to defend there stance.

Aside: Don't kill the messenger *giggle*

This is my approach as well. I'm simply pointing out that the verse could be read different ways. Granted, not all of the ways are right, and not all assumptions are equal. My only point was that the verse itself is not the end of the matter. More discussion is needed.

 

[Hazelelponi]

agree. However, in a sense it is not even the regenerated that understand the Gospel, but only God himself. That is, none of us understand it well enough to qualify. The quality of our faith is not according to OUR understanding, but from a more real source, who understands it completely. We 'glom' onto it, because the Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God. We believe

I'm not sure I'm following correctly, but my initial question confusion is what do you mean we are missing a lot of data?

I really don't think we are, at least, not in relation to our need of knowing and or our capacity to know. We don't need the nitty gritty details for building a new earth or a new race of being.

But what we actually need God gives at the time God thinks we are ready to know, I have decided He's just very precise about things really, there's no such thing as our being shown something too soon or too late with God, He's apparently got His own ideas, and we are supposed to be here trusting in His wisdom and timing and not our own...

The quality of our faith is not according to OUR understanding, but from a more real source, who understands it completely.

This is what I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

Can you say it again?

I see the quality of our faith to be at least within the context of our own choices after we are saved. We have no copout, predestinarians or no, we know there's no excuse for poor behavior.

And faith is an issue we pray for... And faith is something God desires all His children to have, therefore we should be able to acquire a certain purity of faith irregardless of what stage of learning and understanding we are at...

Don't you think that's about right? What are you trying to say?

 

[Arial]

And faith is an issue we pray for... And faith is something God desires all His children to have, therefore we should be able to acquire a certain purity of faith irregardless of what stage of learning and understanding we are at...

There is saving faith which is a belief in and trust in the person and work of Christ. That is given to us (Eph 2). It is not generated from within us but placed in us. The new heart. And then there is a growing of that faith related directly to our understanding of the things of God in his word. By growing, I mean it gets stronger as we learn. It is always stable, though it may not always feel that way to us. But it permeates every aspect of our lives as it learns this, and then learns that. It is a product and process of sanctification. And that too is a work of God in us by the Holy Spirit. We are gradually being conformed to the image of Christ, as we journey through this fallen world. Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that we might be the firstborn among many brothers.

In a very real sense, the sense of being justified by faith, and having his righteousness imputed to us, we are conformed to his image now and not yet. It is what those predestined to election are predestined to.