Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Dave]

@Dave if Jesus said this in John 3:3, then who are we to question him?

Testing it, that's what good Bereans do. Your reading things into that passage that aren't there, and redefining the whole bible with it.

 

[Dave]

Dave said:
I don't know if I would say it like that. That would be joining Him with what is unclean. I get what you're saying though. Funny that you mentioned that though, along those same lines....

Dave, regeneration does not join Him with what is unclean. It AT LEAST cleans by the very indwelling. Where God is (and the Spirit of God IS God) the unclean is burned clear. God's purity is not compromised in this arrangement of the ordo salutis.

Then Why did we need Jesus to die on the cross for us?

 

[Dave]

@Dave

It's in Job 34. Verses 14-15.

If that's the way that you're reading it, then reconcile it with this.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Dave]

Ezekiel 36.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Is this scripture not acceptable for you? does it contradict the ones you use?

Carbon, look very closely at this passage that you offered as proof of indwelling and born again in the OT. You offered this same passage as proof in post #2 in this thread, Arial.

As I have already stated, this is a future promise. Think of the implications of that.

God is making these promises to OT believers. They believe, but are not indwelt or born again. By what means did the Power of God bring these to faith, if they are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again?

It's not like I haven't offered a whole lot of scripture to prove the same thing.

I rest my case.

Dave

 

[Carbon]

Testing it, that's what good Bereans do. Your reading things into that passage that aren't there, and redefining the whole bible with it.

Your accusing me of your practice? Not nice Dave

 

[Carbon]

If that's the way that you're reading it, then reconcile it with this.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

You don't understand context very well, do you?

 

[Carbon]

Carbon, look very closely at this passage that you offered as proof of indwelling and born again in the OT. You offered this same passage as proof in post #2 in this thread, Arial.

As I have already stated, this is a future promise. Think of the implications of that.

God is making these promises to OT believers. They believe, but are not indwelt or born again. By what means did the Power of God bring these to faith, if they are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again?

It's not like I haven't offered a whole lot of scripture to prove the same thing.

I rest my case.

Dave

Dave, it seems you rested your case a long time ago. It's sad to think you believe God has two plans of salvation, one in the OT and another in the NT. But the fact is, (which you choose to disagree with), People in the OT were saved the same way those in the NT are saved, faith in the Messiah/Jesus Christ. Those in the OT, the Spirit permanently dwells as He does those in the NT; we in the NT have a more special blessing but permanent dwelling, just the same. Now you rest your case, you can keep your beliefs. The Church had been attacked since the beginning with false teachings. It's normal, we are used to it.

I will ask you one thing, however, when you present your beliefs, express them as "your beliefs or opinions, not the Christian beliefs." Thanks.

 

[Josheb]

As I have already stated, this is a future promise.

It is not a future promise and the argument supporting that claim is faulty.

Think of the implications of that.

No. It is neither was nor necessary to think falsehood as truth.

God is making these promises to OT believers.

No, Jesus was stating a fact. The kingdom can't be seen unless a person is born anew from above. A survey of the New Testament's statements regarding the kingdom tells us the kingdom had already come.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Jesus said it was at hand. Jesus did not say it will one day in the far, far distant future be in hand.

Luke 11:20
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Jesus had, in fact, cast out demons. The kingdom had, therefore, already come. Those not born again could not see it but it had come.

Luke 17:20-21
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Jesus statement that day precludes many modern eschatologies. All the ones looking for a kingdom to still arrive are incorrect if measured by Luke 17. The kingdom doesn't come with signs (so all those signs the Dispensational Premillennialists constantly preach are self-indicting proof the DPism is wrong). The kingdom is not coming in the future because it had already come and was in their midst that day when Jesus spoke to the apostles that day 2000 years ago.

Romans 14:16-17
Therefore, do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit. It is not land or territory.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

The kingdom is power, not words. Concerning the power of the kingdom Jesus stated,

Matthew 28:17-20
When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

All the power of the kingdom has been given to Jesus..... already. As a consequence....

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ephesians 1:18-23
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Jesus, and Jesus alone, has the name above all other names and his is the rule is far above all other rule, authority, power, and dominion.

Despite these facts, none of it can be seen by those who are not born anew from above.

They believe, but are not indwelt or born again.

That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again.

Which is it? The OT saint believed but wasn't born again...... he needed to believe to be born again.

?????

He needed to believe to be born again and believed but was not born again.

By what means did the Power of God bring these to faith, if they are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again?

Think that question through. You have just argued regeneration precedes faith! A person must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again....... as the means by which the power of God brings these to faith.

It's not like I haven't offered a whole lot of scripture to prove the same thing.

But it is like a bunch of poorly used scripture was misused to assert positions not actually stated in scripture, positions that, in some cases, directly contradict what is explicitly stated elsewhere.

I rest my case.

Dave

It is a very shoddy case and, in the end, it proves that which it set out to confront: Regeneration precedes faith.

Therefore, if an Old Testament believed in the foreshadowed Messiah, he did so solely by the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit by which that person was able to see the kingdom. S/he was, in other words, born anew from above (even if s/he did not reap the fuller benefits that ensued with Calvary and Pentecost. That is what the posts supporting and defending this op say.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They gained approval by faith. How'd they get that faith? According to this "case" you've just rested, they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and born again because that's the only way for the power of God to bring them to the faith by which they gained approval.





Note: If you actually have rested your case then there is no need to repeat any of it or add to what has already been posted. If the case presented is sufficient to rest, then let's not read any more of it. It is now time to respond to what others bring to bear on this case. If the case has truly been made, then truly rest it.

 

[Arial]

Testing it, that's what good Bereans do. Your reading things into that passage that aren't there, and redefining the whole bible with it.

Or you are. Who decides? You?

 

[Carbon]

It is not a future promise and the argument supporting that claim is faulty.

No. It is neither was nor necessary to think falsehood as truth.

No, Jesus was stating a fact. The kingdom can't be seen unless a person is born anew from above. A survey of the New Testament's statements regarding the kingdom tells us the kingdom had already come.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Jesus said it was at hand. Jesus did not say it will one day in the far, far distant future be in hand.

Luke 11:20
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Jesus had, in fact, cast out demons. The kingdom had, therefore, already come. Those not born again could not see it but it had come.

Luke 17:20-21
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Jesus statement that day precludes many modern eschatologies. All the ones looking for a kingdom to still arrive are incorrect if measured by Luke 17. The kingdom doesn't come with signs (so all those signs the Dispensational Premillennialists constantly preach are self-indicting proof the DPism is wrong). The kingdom is not coming in the future because it had already come and was in their midst that day when Jesus spoke to the apostles that day 2000 years ago.

Romans 14:16-17
Therefore, do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit. It is not land or territory.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

The kingdom is power, not words. Concerning the power of the kingdom Jesus stated,

Matthew 28:17-20
When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

All the power of the kingdom has been given to Jesus..... already. As a consequence....

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ephesians 1:18-23
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Jesus, and Jesus alone, has the name above all other names and his is the rule is far above all other rule, authority, power, and dominion.

Despite these facts, none of it can be seen by those who are not born anew from above.

Which is it? The OT saint believed but wasn't born again...... he needed to believe to be born again.

?????

He needed to believe to be born again and believed but was not born again.

Think that question through. You have just argued regeneration precedes faith! A person must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again....... as the means by which the power of God brings these to faith.

But it is like a bunch of poorly used scripture was misused to assert positions not actually stated in scripture, positions that, in some cases, directly contradict what is explicitly stated elsewhere.

It is a very shoddy case and, in the end, it proves that which it set out to confront: Regeneration precedes faith.

Therefore, if an Old Testament believed in the foreshadowed Messiah, he did so solely by the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit by which that person was able to see the kingdom. S/he was, in other words, born anew from above (even if s/he did not reap the fuller benefits that ensued with Calvary and Pentecost. That is what the posts supporting and defending this op say.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They gained approval by faith. How'd they get that faith? According to this "case" you've just rested, they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and born again because that's the only way for the power of God to bring them to the faith by which they gained approval.





Note: If you actually have rested your case then there is no need to repeat any of it or add to what has already been posted. If the case presented is sufficient to rest, then let's not read any more of it. It is now time to respond to what others bring to bear on this case. If the case has truly been made, then truly rest it.

Beating a dead horse.

 

[Arial]

Beating a dead horse.

Poor horse, dragged about by a cart for days and days!

 

[Eleanor]

Poor horse, dragged about by a cart for days and days!

What happened to H?

 

[Carbon]

As I have already stated, this is a future promise. Think of the implications of that.

All is future from the Covenant of Redemption.

 

[Arial]

Then Why did we need Jesus to die on the cross for us?

NEW COVENANT that's why. To enlarge the volume of those who are his people in covenant relationship, and in a new way. To destroy the serpent and cleanse the earth of all sin. That's why. The Old Covenant did not deal with sin and was not designed to. It exposed sin and us as helpless and hopeless. It was temporary, making perfect preparation for the coming of our Prophet, Priest, and King who laid down his life as the sacrifice for the sins of his people once and for all, the blood of the covenant. That's why.

 

[makesends]

Then Why did we need Jesus to die on the cross for us?

HUH??? How does that logically follow?

 

[makesends]

Read this very carefully. What does it say? Indwelling, the placing into is the result of faith. Paul could not have made it any clearer.

Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
6 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
110 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
18 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


--------------------

Even going back a chapter 2 in Galatians, Paul tells us this regarding this same baptism, just like it says in Romans 6.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ (born again); it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Romans 6: Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Dave

You really can't see how your necessary ordering of self-deterministic faith as central to salvation colors everything you read in Scripture. That salvific faith spoken of in Scripture, which I agree comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, does not then somehow become subject to your approval, before it has become active within you. Nor does the Spirit of God whom God has placed in you.

You can push the Spirit aside in rebellion, you can diminish your confidence, but the validity and the permanence of both the Spirit and the faith that HE generates inside you, is not dependent in any way, on you.

 

[Eleanor]

You really can't see how your necessary ordering of self-deterministic faith as central to salvation colors everything you read in Scripture. That salvific faith spoken of in Scripture, which I agree comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, does not then somehow become subject to your approval, before it has become active within you. Nor does the Spirit of God whom God has placed in you.

You can push the Spirit aside in rebellion, you can diminish your confidence, but the validity and the permanence of both the Spirit and the faith that HE generates inside you, is not dependent in any way, on you.

I say you don't push away the Spirit in rebellion when he makes you willing. . .

 

[makesends]

I say you don't push away the Spirit in rebellion when he makes you willing. . .

Well put.

 

[Dave]

Your accusing me of your practice? Not nice Dave

What passage did I do this to Carbon?

 

[Dave]

Dave, it seems you rested your case a long time ago. It's sad to think you believe God has two plans of salvation, one in the OT and another in the NT. But the fact is, (which you choose to disagree with), People in the OT were saved the same way those in the NT are saved, faith in the Messiah/Jesus Christ. Those in the OT, the Spirit permanently dwells as He does those in the NT; we in the NT have a more special blessing but permanent dwelling, just the same. Now you rest your case, you can keep your beliefs. The Church had been attacked since the beginning with false teachings. It's normal, we are used to it.

I will ask you one thing, however, when you present your beliefs, express them as "your beliefs or opinions, not the Christian beliefs." Thanks.

One plan. Some came before it took effect, and some came after. It's a simple thing.