Reformed/Calvinist Sanctification Process - Question for Personal Edification

[Hazelelponi]

To set the stage for my question:

So, I'm Calvinistic in my theology. I am curious what everyone thinks about the sanctification process itself.

To illucidate, the other day one of the believers on forum made a comment about Job that I honestly found heart stopping to consider:

Well-----.Job begged to have an audience with God. And he finally got one. It was three chapters long and brought Job to his knees in repentance for presuming that since he had heard of God, he knew him. Job got one of those revelations that cannot even be put into words it is so large. The very inside workings of "We dare not question God or measure him by what we experience or by what is going on around us. He is God. He does not answer to us. He is God."

Reading the above quoted portion gave me a moment of panic, concerned if I also might have some sin in this area.

This feeling led me to consider sanctification as process in light of Scripture. The way I understand sanctification: scriptures appear to set up the process as a dilemma which provides us with a constant push and pull between our works, (our deeds), and our simple faith in Christ's finished works.

In my own life, the Holy Spirit seems to make sure I am always in this balance between my own working and trusting in Christs work so that I am neither lazy nor a workaholic with little faith.

But it often leaves me feeling like I go back and forth between checking to rid myself of sin and checking that I'm truly trusting Christ and his finished work of salvation for my own.

So my question is: Does everyone else experience the same thing in this area? This push and pull?

Is this typical?

 

[Rella]

To set the stage for my question:

So, I'm Calvinistic in my theology. I am curious what everyone thinks about the sanctification process itself.

To illucidate, the other day one of the believers on forum made a comment about Job that I honestly found heart stopping to consider:

"Well-----.Job begged to have an audience with God. And he finally got one. It was three chapters long and brought Job to his knees in repentance for presuming that since he had heard of God, he knew him. Job got one of those revelations that cannot even be put into words it is so large. The very inside workings of "We dare not question God or measure him by what we experience or by what is going on around us. He is God. He does not answer to us. He is God."

Reading the above quoted portion gave me a moment of panic, concerned if I also might have some sin in this area.

This feeling led me to consider sanctification as process in light of Scripture. The way I understand sanctification: scriptures appear to set up the process as a dilemma which provides us with a constant push and pull between our works, (our deeds), and our simple faith in Christ's finished works.

In my own life, the Holy Spirit seems to make sure I am always in this balance between my own working and trusting in Christs work so that I am neither lazy nor a workaholic with little faith.

But it often leaves me feeling like I go back and forth between checking to rid myself of sin and checking that I'm truly trusting Christ and his finished work of salvation for my own.

So my question is: Does everyone else experience the same thing in this area? This push and pull?

Is this typical?

WOW.

Theologically we are opposite because I am not Calvinistic at all, but must say the quote you quoted shot an arrow of panic my way also.

IMO I do believe that we all, to one extent or the other feel this "push and pull" as you describe it.

I think that possibly that is one of the attractions that makes one seek forums such as these. Looking for opinion and also agreements in ones beliefs.

But now, I wonder, if to the Heavenly Father He feels we are questioning Him?

Hopefully someone will come along and give their insights.

 

[Arial]

To set the stage for my question:

So, I'm Calvinistic in my theology. I am curious what everyone thinks about the sanctification process itself.

To illucidate, the other day one of the believers on forum made a comment about Job that I honestly found heart stopping to consider:



Reading the above quoted portion gave me a moment of panic, concerned if I also might have some sin in this area.

This feeling led me to consider sanctification as process in light of Scripture. The way I understand sanctification: scriptures appear to set up the process as a dilemma which provides us with a constant push and pull between our works, (our deeds), and our simple faith in Christ's finished works.

In my own life, the Holy Spirit seems to make sure I am always in this balance between my own working and trusting in Christs work so that I am neither lazy nor a workaholic with little faith.

But it often leaves me feeling like I go back and forth between checking to rid myself of sin and checking that I'm truly trusting Christ and his finished work of salvation for my own.

So my question is: Does everyone else experience the same thing in this area? This push and pull?

Is this typical?

Sorry for the panic!

I am going to start a thread "The Assumptions of Job and His Friends" as a place to get into the meaning of my statement taking into consideration the entire book of Job. Where his friends were coming from and where Job was coming from and what God was doing as shown in the Bible.

There will always be the push, pull, until the consummation because we are still in the flesh of Adam, but our position before God is in Christ. It is a right now, but not yet, position. We are fully justified before God in Christ through faith. His righteousness is imputed to us. Yet like children we must learn and we learn from his word, and this is what sanctifies us. It is God working in us through the Holy Spirit. John 17:17 "Sanctifiy them in the truth. Your word is truth."

We also have this: Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

No need to panic. There is also now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And he will finish what he began. The push/pull of the flesh and the Spirit, that at times forgetting that it is God working in us, and begin to work to change ourselves, is human, and it changes nothing as to how God sees us in Christ or in his working in us. It can, and probably should, drive us to his throne of grace and mercy to ask for grace and mercy in the sanctification process. Knowing we were helpless to ever save ourselves and we are still helpless to change ourselves, but his grace is sufficient, and his grace and power and love will do what we cannot do. Sometimes it takes awhile to rid of specific sins, sometimes it even takes awhile to recognize them as sin (particularly in our attitudes and ways of relating to others) and one day we look back and ask ourselves, "When did that go away?"

The fact that what I said about Job hit both you and @Rella the way it did, is curious to me as our sins and sanctification was not the thrust of why I said it. It was about something else, which I will get into when I start the thread. But I trust there was a reason and a good one, for your good. So hope this helps. What you and Rella described is not questioning God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The fact that what I said about Job hit both you and @Rella the way it did, is curious to me as our sins and sanctification was not the thrust of why I said it. It was about something else, which I will get into when I start the thread. But I trust there was a reason and a good one, for your good. So hope this helps. What you and Rella described is not questioning God.

Oh I understood why you said that, I was following along and reading the posts. And I don't believe I have committed any particular sin surrounding - it just lead me to consider the push and pull of it all.

Thanks for the response. It's good to remember that Christ has this well in hand even when we have things yet to work on, and to know we all have this experience to our own degree. The flesh versus Spirit.

Definitely looking forward to that thread on Job! It'll be awesome to read...

 

[makesends]

WOW.

Theologically we are opposite because I am not Calvinistic at all, but must say the quote you quoted shot an arrow of panic my way also.

IMO I do believe that we all, to one extent or the other feel this "push and pull" as you describe it.

I think that possibly that is one of the attractions that makes one seek forums such as these. Looking for opinion and also agreements in ones beliefs.

But now, I wonder, if to the Heavenly Father He feels we are questioning Him?

Hopefully someone will come along and give their insights.

To both @Rella and @Hazelelponi and @myself

One thing that has been long-time been a constant thorn in the side of Christianity, is the notion that Sanctification, and becoming like Christ, and pretty much any other description both Biblical and extra-biblical, is generic maturity and Jesus-copy, quite apart from any dynamic differences between individuals. Not that I claim any wisdom here beyond anyone else, but it has been (mercifully, but painfully) beat into me that Sanctification has EVERTHING to do with God's 'end-game' and his purposes concerning us —I think that becoming 'like Christ' is literally becoming that particular 'member of His Body' that we will finally will see ourselves as being. This is a literal being "IN CHRIST".

I may be overstating, or, more likely, side-stating (if there is such a thing), and therefore misusing the term, "IN CHRIST", but I think there is definitely something to what I am trying to get across, here. It is important to recognize that although we do have our consciences' understandings to live up to, and our need to listen to and obey the Spirit's voice, and our need to study and adapt to Biblical principles, and on and on, in the end, OUR assessments and judgements of ourselves and of what is going on with us, are not the measure that God himself uses as to what he is making of us.

Reminds me of a kind of saying between my siblings: "'Shall we sin that grace may abound?' OF COURSE NOT!!! But we do, and it does." Growing in Christ is not just about success in faithfulness (and by no means do I intend to reject that principle). Growing literally IN CHRIST is about becoming more and more dependent on him as our very sustenance and essence. And THAT is not generic. We are his members.

 

[fastfredy0]

But it often leaves me feeling like I go back and forth between checking to rid myself of sin and checking that I'm truly trusting Christ and his finished work of salvation for my own.

To the extent one obeys God, one believes in God and Christ and his finished work of salvation.
To the extent one sins one should question his salvation. If this be true and since we all sin to some extent, we all should question our salvation ... thus resulting in confidence ranging from 0% to 99.9%
speaking for myself ... I'd like to successfully get past the "I never knew you" possibility and thus reach 100%.

Sanctification
The Source of and Credit for our Good Works (Sanctification) is God. Believers are In Christ. It is a mystical union with God. It is God doing all things for the benefits of those that are united to Him.

John Murray writes, God works in us and we also work. But the relation is that because God works we work. All working out of salvation on our part is the effect of God’s working in us.” Thus we are to Hebrews 12:14 “strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”, Romans 8:13 put to death the deeds of the body”, 1 Corinthians 6:18 “flee from sexual immorality”, 2 Timothy 2:22 “pursue righteousness”, and even 2 Corinthians 7:1 “cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Augustine: But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

“All spiritual and holy qualities in saints are bestowed by God, without desert on their part.” Dabney, Robert L. Systematic Theology. Kindle Edition.


Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]?
many more

 

[makesends]

speaking for myself ... I'd like to successfully get past the "I never knew you" possibility and thus reach 100%.

I know how to do that —but it's pretty severe. Die!

 

[makesends]

Sorry for the panic!

I am going to start a thread "The Assumptions of Job and His Friends" as a place to get into the meaning of my statement taking into consideration the entire book of Job. Where his friends were coming from and where Job was coming from and what God was doing as shown in the Bible.

There will always be the push, pull, until the consummation because we are still in the flesh of Adam, but our position before God is in Christ. It is a right now, but not yet, position. We are fully justified before God in Christ through faith. His righteousness is imputed to us. Yet like children we must learn and we learn from his word, and this is what sanctifies us. It is God working in us through the Holy Spirit. John 17:17 "Sanctifiy them in the truth. Your word is truth."

We also have this: Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

No need to panic. There is also now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And he will finish what he began. The push/pull of the flesh and the Spirit, that at times forgetting that it is God working in us, and begin to work to change ourselves, is human, and it changes nothing as to how God sees us in Christ or in his working in us. It can, and probably should, drive us to his throne of grace and mercy to ask for grace and mercy in the sanctification process. Knowing we were helpless to ever save ourselves and we are still helpless to change ourselves, but his grace is sufficient, and his grace and power and love will do what we cannot do. Sometimes it takes awhile to rid of specific sins, sometimes it even takes awhile to recognize them as sin (particularly in our attitudes and ways of relating to others) and one day we look back and ask ourselves, "When did that go away?"

The fact that what I said about Job hit both you and @Rella the way it did, is curious to me as our sins and sanctification was not the thrust of why I said it. It was about something else, which I will get into when I start the thread. But I trust there was a reason and a good one, for your good. So hope this helps. What you and Rella described is not questioning God.

I don't mean to raise my hand, here, but I keep missing new threads, and I don't want to miss this one. Can you reference me when you do it, or DM me and link it, or something?

 

[makesends]

(Murray): But the relation is that because God works we work

Amen that! We do so because it IS so.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

"....the Love of Christ COMPELS us". does not say, "...the Love of Christ motivates us to choose toward his general direction"

 

[makesends]

To the extent one obeys God, one believes in God and Christ and his finished work of salvation.
To the extent one sins one should question his salvation. If this be true and since we all sin to some extent, we all should question our salvation ... thus resulting in confidence ranging from 0% to 99.9%
speaking for myself ... I'd like to successfully get past the "I never knew you" possibility and thus reach 100%.

Sanctification
The Source of and Credit for our Good Works (Sanctification) is God. Believers are In Christ. It is a mystical union with God. It is God doing all things for the benefits of those that are united to Him.

John Murray writes, God works in us and we also work. But the relation is that because God works we work. All working out of salvation on our part is the effect of God’s working in us.” Thus we are to Hebrews 12:14 “strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”, Romans 8:13 put to death the deeds of the body”, 1 Corinthians 6:18 “flee from sexual immorality”, 2 Timothy 2:22 “pursue righteousness”, and even 2 Corinthians 7:1 “cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Augustine: But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

“All spiritual and holy qualities in saints are bestowed by God, without desert on their part.” Dabney, Robert L. Systematic Theology. Kindle Edition.


Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]?
many more

That is precious and beautiful, bro. Thank you.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

To the extent one obeys God, one believes in God and Christ and his finished work of salvation.
To the extent one sins one should question his salvation. If this be true and since we all sin to some extent, we all should question our salvation ... thus resulting in confidence ranging from 0% to 99.9%
speaking for myself ... I'd like to successfully get past the "I never knew you" possibility and thus reach 100%.

Sanctification
The Source of and Credit for our Good Works (Sanctification) is God. Believers are In Christ. It is a mystical union with God. It is God doing all things for the benefits of those that are united to Him.

John Murray writes, God works in us and we also work. But the relation is that because God works we work. All working out of salvation on our part is the effect of God’s working in us.” Thus we are to Hebrews 12:14 “strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”, Romans 8:13 put to death the deeds of the body”, 1 Corinthians 6:18 “flee from sexual immorality”, 2 Timothy 2:22 “pursue righteousness”, and even 2 Corinthians 7:1 “cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Augustine: But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

“All spiritual and holy qualities in saints are bestowed by God, without desert on their part.” Dabney, Robert L. Systematic Theology. Kindle Edition.


Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]?
many more

To the extent one obeys God, one believes in God and Christ and his finished work of salvation.
To the extent one sins one should question his salvation. If this be true and since we all sin to some extent, we all should question our salvation ... thus resulting in confidence ranging from 0% to 99.9%
speaking for myself ... I'd like to successfully get past the "I never knew you" possibility and thus reach 100%.

I know this all to well in my own life.

 

[makesends]

To set the stage for my question:

So, I'm Calvinistic in my theology. I am curious what everyone thinks about the sanctification process itself.

To illucidate, the other day one of the believers on forum made a comment about Job that I honestly found heart stopping to consider:



Reading the above quoted portion gave me a moment of panic, concerned if I also might have some sin in this area.

This feeling led me to consider sanctification as process in light of Scripture. The way I understand sanctification: scriptures appear to set up the process as a dilemma which provides us with a constant push and pull between our works, (our deeds), and our simple faith in Christ's finished works.

In my own life, the Holy Spirit seems to make sure I am always in this balance between my own working and trusting in Christs work so that I am neither lazy nor a workaholic with little faith.

But it often leaves me feeling like I go back and forth between checking to rid myself of sin and checking that I'm truly trusting Christ and his finished work of salvation for my own.

So my question is: Does everyone else experience the same thing in this area? This push and pull?

Is this typical?

There's an awful lot of this that any one believer will have their own perspective on. Generally, I have understood the more mature to have certain characteristics, but I have to admit that some that I have admired for their faith and faithfulness have such a different point-of-view about maturity and sanctification from others that I have admired for their faith and faithfulness, that I feel unqualified to deal with what I am sure is nevertheless important to understand on this subject.

It is ironic to the point that it is almost humorous to me, that no matter how well I understand an issue, and no matter how well I think others understand the same issue (in this case, generally, sanctification) the ones who seem to me most faithful and in admiration of Christ are so wide in variety of understanding that the particularities of what they believe or understand seem almost irrelevant. Yet, I know that can't be so.

But, one constant, that I have seen since not long into my twenties (I'm 69 now), is that the ones I find myself able to trust are those who find themselves constantly and increasingly in need of Christ. They have become dependent on Christ, seemingly to the point of addiction, and don't know how they ever got along without him. This is true to the point that those I have considered as having the most faith and faithfulness are NOT (necessarily at all) the ones to whom I find myself trusting my heart. —I don't know them. But I can identify with those who know that they desperately NEED Christ.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Sanctification is a work of God’ s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit (Eph. 1:4, 1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Thess. 2:13) applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, (Rom. 6:4–6) renewed in their whole man after the image of God; (Eph. 4:23–24) having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, (Acts 11:18, 1 John 3:9) and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, (Jude 20, Heb. 6:11–12, Eph. 3:16–19, Col. 1:10–11) as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. (Rom. 6:4,6,14, Gal. 5:24)^[1]

The Westminster Larger Catechism: With Scripture Proofs.

 

[Arial]

I don't mean to raise my hand, here, but I keep missing new threads, and I don't want to miss this one. Can you reference me when you do it, or DM me and link it, or something?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-assumptions-of-job-and-his-friends.2564/

 

[fastfredy0]

I know how to do that —but it's pretty severe. Die!

Well, there's a down side to that. If I were to be told "I never knew you" then best to put off dying as I think things here are better than for those whom He never knew. Like, I'll go for the convert instead of the 2 point after touch down play.

 

[fastfredy0]

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

I suppose the alternative is "free will" sanctification where "free will" is defined as me self-determining whether to be naughty or nice.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I suppose the alternative is "free will" sanctification where "free will" is defined as me self-determining whether to be naughty or nice.

So, does one fall into sin or plan to sin?

Edit: Verses I think support that we can plan to do sin or willfully sin.

Micah 2:1 Woe to those who devise wickedness, Who work out evil on their beds! When the light of the morning comes, they do it, For it is in the power of their hands.

Psalms 36:4 He devises wickedness upon his bed; He sets himself on a path that is not good; He does not despise evil.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully matured, it brings forth death.

Thoughts?

Edit 2: These verses indicate we have sin that we do not even know about (12) and there seems to be a dispute with commentators on presumptuous sins.

Psalms 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.
Psalms 19:13 Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I think I may have went off topic.

Apologies.

 

[makesends]

Sanctification is a work of God’ s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit (Eph. 1:4, 1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Thess. 2:13) applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, (Rom. 6:4–6) renewed in their whole man after the image of God; (Eph. 4:23–24) having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, (Acts 11:18, 1 John 3:9) and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, (Jude 20, Heb. 6:11–12, Eph. 3:16–19, Col. 1:10–11) as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. (Rom. 6:4,6,14, Gal. 5:24)^[1]

The Westminster Larger Catechism: With Scripture Proofs.

I don't know whether you meant that in response to what I said or not, but it followed immediately on the heels of what I said. Is that mentioned as in addition to what I said, or as opposed to what I said, or having no particular relation to what I said, not being in response to what I said?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I don't know whether you meant that in response to what I said or not, but it followed immediately on the heels of what I said. Is that mentioned as in addition to what I said, or as opposed to what I said, or having no particular relation to what I said, not being in response to what I said?

No nothing that you posted.

I just thought that it was fitting for this subject.

 

[makesends]

I suppose the alternative is "free will" sanctification where "free will" is defined as me self-determining whether to be naughty or nice.

Ha! That's the second time today where I see something and think, "I don't remember writing that! That's pretty good!"